Proposed Evo 2015 Smash 4 Ruleset: Customs Possible!

[Mic_128]

That's what I would assume as long as people don't stall it out.

People were doing that at APEX

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

People were doing that at APEX

Yeah they were with the coaching, same happened with PM at CEO last year.

If TOs step up on this I think it would be for the better in this situation.

 

[warriorman222]

Melee is looking pretty great after this.

We've already proved over and over how customs aren't random, because it's a requirement to tell your opponent or get DQ'd, and they aren't hard to learn (take an hour from the thousands you have... done.). We've proven how they aren't busted, as many defaults are better and all of them have drawbacks. we've proven how they don't ruin Mus, because different situations to tackle means more variety, more hype and better viewer experience.

What else do you want? If you're about to leave, don't just say a sarcastic comment then leave. At least ell us what else you don't like about customs. I don't know about others, but i'll try my best to respond quickly and nicely.

It's ok to not like customs. it's not ok to sarcastically imply Melee as better than Smash and say that the scene is ruined because customs are legal. Especially after we have proved that customs may be the only thing that can save the scene.

 

[_gold_]

Timber Counter, High Pressure FLUDD, Kong Cyclone, Helicopter Kick, Feint Jump, Hyper Monado, Power Counter, Power Bow, Dash Slash, Chain Judge, and a whole lot other of stuff beg to differ.

I said usually, not always. Big difference.

 

[warriorman222]

I said usually, not always. Big difference.

Yeah, misread. But chances are above 49.9% of customs≥defaults, as in better than or equal to.

 

[Modular Zeal]

ZeRo already saying that he doesn't think including customs is a wise dicision in the tweets.

I'm sorry, love Zero, but who cares what he has to say, he isn't the king of the Smash community, why should we really care what he thinks. We shouldn't base the future of Smash 4 on him, we are one whole community and I think we should all have some equal say in it and we should listen to the higher-ups.

 

[_gold_]

I'm sorry, love Zero, but who cares what he has to say, he isn't the king of the Smash community, why should we really care what he thinks. We shouldn't base the future of Smash 4 on him, we are one whole community and I think we should all have some equal say in it and we should listen to the higher-ups.

He's just stating his opinion. Like you are here.

 

[Pazzo.]

That's what I would assume as long as people don't stall it out. But I could be wrong on this.

I'm still in favor of them being legal overall, but I would like to check out data and get it covered hopefully to help ease this out.

Just cut coaching to a minute max, and you've got yourself hours of time for counterpicking.

 

[Modular Zeal]

He's just stating his opinion. Like you are here.

Yes, I realize that, but the way Galespark was saying it made it seem like since Zero said we should all follow that . Idk maybe I took it a different way than he meant for it to sound. I didn't mean for my comment to come across as a sort of backlash towards him, just something I feel that many people forget about when deciding on what Smash should or shouldn't be.

 

[Radical Larry]

Town and City...the one reason it's there is because it's like Smashville...but...it's worse. You can actually get KO'd off the side incredibly fast because of the platforms, and the stage layout is very, very disorienting (for me at least) whenever it starts moving from town to city.

Am I the only one complaining about how THIS got in the Tournament and NOT the customs?

 

[TruStyle (AKA Relic)]

If Custom moves become a thing I'm curious how Diddy Kong will fare. I don't think he'll be as dominant. If he's overly dominant even without. He's good for sure, but the players that make him look amazing are also well super amazing people skill wise.

Everyone makes Diddy look good because he is easy to use and has flow chart combos. All your custom moves are going to to is give him more options as well, including a remedy to his one weakness which is his bad recovery. I swear, you people fighting for customs are ruining this tournament. It is not meant to nor should it be. All that's going to happen is the dominate characters stay dominant swapping out there under used moves for better versions covering weaknesses. A few characters with OP customs are going to join them, and the viable characters without decent customs are going to get left behind. This is going to ruin the game, taking what was a decently balanced game and flipping it into a list of obviously better characters and the characters who couldn't keep up. Don't come to me with this "The moves aren't OP, you can adapt!, they help out some of the lesser characters!" There are good solid characters that have a lack of viable customs. In smash, if you know anything options are everything. The characters without match up adapting customs are screwed if this happens. Switching up options not only destroys smashes fundamental mechanic of learning match ups but perverts the game in a way we definitely should not be seeing out of the blue this early in meta game development. Honestly it is almost like certain characters can counter pick with customs, and the characters they are picking against might not have anything to even out that advantage. Outside of base character match ups there is no reason why people should get free advantage.

 

[byebye]

Well, there's months of advance warning, YouTube videos showcasing every single custom, and people like @Amazing Ampharos making Custom moves easy and accessible.

There's no reason for any of us to be xenophobic about implementing these into the metagame.

Yeah I'm with you on that. Zer0 just didn't want Evo to be a testing ground? The next few custom on tournaments should at least alleviate Zer0's concerns.

 

[IsmaR]

Better safe and than sorry, I guess...

And what do you mean about Mewtwo?

The rules need to be "set in stone" before 3/27. Meaning if Mewtwo's not released before then, I'm uncertain whether or not they would allow/include him. Considering every set up needs the CN code to download him, which requires both versions registered before the set deadline, effectively requiring twice as many copies needed for each set up, that issue is only compounded.

Just seemed like a hassle, much like "default" vs custom Mii's.

 

[Rehnquist]

Finally... customs at a major tournament.

With this, we might see some Palutena, Shulk, and (dare I say it?) Meta Knight players.

If we do see meta knight, its not because of customs. I'll tell you that right now. 1111 is his best set by far with 1211 and 1311 being very situational for very specific MU's, and the rest of his customs are inferior by large margins. 3111 is still inferior but less so than his other options.

 

[moyshe]

I dont understand how any of you could be excited about this, this goes against everything the smash community stands for as whole.

 

[Aninymouse]

The rules need to be "set in stone" before 3/27. Meaning if Mewtwo's not released before then, I'm uncertain whether or not they would allow/include him. Considering every set up needs the CN code to download him, which requires both versions registered before the set deadline, effectively requiring twice as many copies needed for each set up, that issue is only compounded.

Just seemed like a hassle, much like "default" vs custom Mii's.

Assuming Mewtwo's out before 3/27 (I hope so!):

Didn't Nintendo supply every setup at Apex this year? They might not have AA's custom move presets pre-loaded on the Wii Us (though they could if they wanted to), but they sure could easily load Mewtwo on the consoles. I see no reason to require tons of Club Nintendo codes. That's a promotion, you know. Mewtwo isn't exclusive to that promotion. It's just a marketing scheme to sell more stuff. Mewtwo will be out on the eShop for purchase, either the same day or shortly thereafter.

Mewtwo hype, though. I can't wait.

 

[EpixAura]

I think we need to address how absolutely awful it is that they're using 5 minutes instead of 6. I fully support 2 stock, especially since this is a large event with time constraints, but 5 minutes is clearly just because that's the For Glory standard. Games will probably last longer on average than with the 6-minute ruleset because running the clock will be so much more practical. Once the bracket gets far enough, I expect the vast majority of games not involving Diddy to be going to time.

It's definitely going to hurt the experience of both the viewer and player. Hopefully this isn't also locked in by Nintendo, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

 

[Aninymouse]

Everyone makes Diddy look good because he is easy to use and has flow chart combos. All your custom moves are going to to is give him more options as well, including a remedy to his one weakness which is his bad recovery. I swear, you people fighting for customs are ruining this tournament. It is not meant to nor should it be. All that's going to happen is the dominate characters stay dominant swapping out there under used moves for better versions covering weaknesses. A few characters with OP customs are going to join them, and the viable characters without decent customs are going to get left behind. This is going to ruin the game, taking what was a decently balanced game and flipping it into a list of obviously better characters and the characters who couldn't keep up. Don't come to me with this "The moves aren't OP, you can adapt!, they help out some of the lesser characters!" There are good solid characters that have a lack of viable customs. In smash, if you know anything options are everything. The characters without match up adapting customs are screwed if this happens. Switching up options not only destroys smashes fundamental mechanic of learning match ups but perverts the game in a way we definitely should not be seeing out of the blue this early in meta game development. Honestly it is almost like certain characters can counter pick with customs, and the characters they are picking against might not have anything to even out that advantage. Outside of base character match ups there is no reason why people should get free advantage.

First off, I wanna apologize if this is a double post. I can't copy/paste from a 3DS, and it's all I have, so I can't ammend my previous post.

Relic, you're right that Diddy has some combos that are difficult or impossible to escape, based on the situation. That's hardly different than Melee Marth, though. It's not that much different. I'd argue that Diddy does not have a bad recovery at all, though! But this isn't really what I wanted to reply to. Diddy is Diddy, whatever.

You talk about how allowing customs will ruin the metagame, since some characters aren't as adaptable as others, i.e. they don't have good custom moves, as far as we can tell. Custom moves might be bad for the metagame (or at least some of them might), but it won't be for that reason at all. Plenty of Smashers main just one character (Esam); some might have a pocket character or two (Will); some use a couple characters interchangeably (Gimr); some use many characters proficiently (Nairo). All these sorts of people frequently compete against one another. One "type" of person does not consistently dominate the others! It's up to the individual.

What I'm getting at is that with or without custom moves, some characters will always have more advantages than others. But, some people will always want to main characters that aren't top tier. Will can use Shiek decently, but he's known for being exceptional with Donkey Kong. He beat Mew2King's Diddy with his own Donkey Kong. He has what it takes. Donkey Kong has what it takes. With customs on, Donkey Kong gets even better. So be that as it may, people who play slightly more "inflexible" characters, like Meta Knight, aren't necessarily at a disadvantage. It all comes down to player skill! Junebug blew people away at S@X recently with Smash 4 Lucario, and put up a hell of a fight against one of the best Shieks I've ever seen to date. Lucario gets swoll with some % on him to be sure, but it was Junebug's amazing skill that carried him to victory over a much more agile and combo-heavy opponent.

Customs deserve a chance.

 

[---]

While I'm remembering, has anyone asked him about Mewtwo at EVO?

EDIT: Good to see someone mention it here at least.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Perhaps with customs allowed (assuming they will indeed be allowed), we may see an unprecedented evolution in the metagame. Of course, this means an official tier list would take that much longer to be established.

 

[Shawn Michael Slaughter]

The music thing sounds dumb. There are alternate tracks for stages. Certainly they could set just DKCR music for DK64 or just mute in-game audio in favor of commentators talking. Considering how massive Evo is I highly doubt they could screw up the music selection and get into trouble. I just want to see as many stages as possible. (Side note: sad Gamer isn't legal...)

As for everything else, I cannot WAIT for Evo this year. All the games and 2 Smashes, it's going to be insane, amazing, and every other positive thing you can put for a review. Though if a Diddy wins Smash 4 I will be a tad sad. I was sad with Apex's result, but considering all the hours Zero put into training it's excusable. I'd love to see more diversity at the big stage and hopefully see a Luigi or Rosalina take it all.

 

[hype machine]

WOOOWWW!!!!! Custom moves at evo will be so hype, and while were at it why don't we make it free for all with items on.

 

[Shawn Michael Slaughter]

WOOOWWW!!!!! Custom moves at evo will be so hype, and while were at it why don't we make it free for all with items on.

Seriously? -_- Why the hell are people suddenly getting a stick up their butts over this? The custom moves aren't random, everyone has access to them. Yes they need to be unlocked, but given the fact that YouTube exists and how huge this community is, chances are there's going to be videos and frame data on all of them. You can study the moves and adapt, y'know, like you should have to do to thrive in ANY competitive scene.

Adapt or die. That's what these custom moves will bring. And while I might not be a fan of them myself, I'm not in the competitive scene right now, so I really don't have much of a say. But as a view, it'll be fun to see the variety these moves add.

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

I'm VERY confused about the stages thing, given that this is a Nintendo game being sponsored by Nintendo themselves... not to mention if music is the issue, then the music can just be turned off for those stages. I gues that's Nintendo for you.

As it turns out, it's because some stages have music that Nintendo doesn't have the license to. My response to that is... why not just disable those songs? It's literally that simple, Nintendo!!

 

[hype machine]

Seriously? -_- Why the hell are people suddenly getting a stick up their butts over this? The custom moves aren't random, everyone has access to them. Yes they need to be unlocked, but given the fact that YouTube exists and how huge this community is, chances are there's going to be videos and frame data on all of them. You can study the moves and adapt, y'know, like you should have to do to thrive in ANY competitive scene.

Adapt or die. That's what these custom moves will bring. And while I might not be a fan of them myself, I'm not in the competitive scene right now, so I really don't have much of a say. But as a view, it'll be fun to see the variety these moves add.

Some of the custom moves look broken. If top 8 evo is filled with people who just spam the same moves over and over again, it would look bad. Get that "adapt or die" **** out of here, if people don't like playing a broken game it's because it's broken

 

[Jigglymaster]

Having custom moves legal would make a lot more characters viable, the game would be a lot more fun, and it would stand itself out from Brawl. Just my opinion.

 

[Shawn Michael Slaughter]

Some of the custom moves look broken. If top 8 evo is filled with people who just spam the same moves over and over again, it would look bad. Get that "adapt or die" **** out of here, if people don't like playing a broken game it's because it's broken

I HIGHLY doubt the likes of M2K, HBox, Zero, or Armada would be spamming special moves over and over again in Top 8. These customs are just special moves. The game is not won with just using them no matter HOW good any of them are. You still need grabs, ariels, etc. to win. And if there is some game-defying custom move that can win matches all on its own, then I'm sure it'll be banned.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Some of the custom moves look broken. If top 8 evo is filled with people who just spam the same moves over and over again, it would look bad. Get that "adapt or die" **** out of here, if people don't like playing a broken game it's because it's broken

Some of them LOOK broken until you start using them, start to understand them and realize they all have their drawbacks. The game is probably much better off with them legal as lots of characters gain access to new, interesting tools that improve and fix holes in their movesets, making them more viable. Plus, Diddy and Sheik don't become any/much better as their customs are either bad or don't make much of a difference.

 

[hype machine]

I HIGHLY doubt the likes of M2K, HBox, Zero, or Armada would be spamming special moves over and over again in Top 8. These customs are just special moves. The game is not won with just using them no matter HOW good any of them are. You still need grabs, ariels, etc. to win. And if there is some game-defying custom move that can win matches all on its own, then I'm sure it'll be banned.

You know who spammed down throw to uair? M2k and zero. You know who won apex? Zero. You now who spammed fair with shiek? Niteno and mr. R. You know who doesn't want custom moves at evo? Zero and nairo. You do know if they make custom moves legal they make all of them legal, we don't decide which ones are legal or not just like we don't decide which characters are legal or not.

 

[Mic_128]

the stage layout is very, very disorienting (for me at least) whenever it starts moving from town to city.

I feel the same way with Final Destination. The twisting, turning and the section where it goes bright white for a period annoying.

I swear, you people fighting for customs are ruining this tournament. It is not meant to nor should it be.

Please, tell us how a competative platformer, one that arguably "should" be using items, free for alls and wacky stages? It was what it we should be doing, seeing as that's what Sakurai meant for it to be.

All that's going to happen is the dominate characters stay dominant swapping out there under used moves for better versions covering weaknesses. A few characters with OP customs are going to join them, and the viable characters without decent customs are going to get left behind.This is going to ruin the game, taking what was a decently balanced game and flipping it into a list of obviously better characters and the characters who couldn't keep up.

As opposed to how it is, with the few strongest characters staying dominant, with some characters with "OP" moves being viable, leaving the rest behind? Even if all it does is just shuffle the "good" characters around, that's a start.

Of course, I don't recall anyone having "OP" custom moves, just tweaks. Mind listing which characters have the "OP" custom moves?

There are good solid characters that have a lack of viable customs.

That just means they don't need em. I don't see how that's a bad thing?

Honestly it is almost like certain characters can counter pick with customs, and the characters they are picking against might not have anything to even out that advantage.

So, literally just like how you can counter-pick a character in 64, Melee, Brawl and Project M?

I dont understand how any of you could be excited about this, this goes against everything the smash community stands for as whole.

You've stated you don't like this and why, but if all your posts in here are now going to be snide comments about how it's bad, or whining that people like something you don't, go away.

 

[hype machine]

How many custom moves are there? 300+? Chances are At least a few of them have to be broken, since they are not design for competitive play. Even if you wanted to test it out evo is the worst time to test it out. Test it out after evo.

 

[Shawn Michael Slaughter]

You know who spammed down throw to uair? M2k and zero. You know who won apex? Zero. You now who spammed fair with shiek? Niteno and mr. R. You know who doesn't want custom moves at evo? Zero and nairo. You do know if they make custom moves legal they make all of them legal, we don't decide which ones are legal or not just like we don't decide which characters are legal or not.

With Diddy, that's sadly a combo. I'm not happy about it either, but it's a string of moves and not just one special. Personally I'd like to see Diddy nerfed, but rather than complain you just need to get used to it. And who gives a crap about two people, as good as they may be, and their opinion on this? We don't have a king, queen, or president of the Smash community to make these decisions. It's made by community and demand. And if people demand custom moves, then guess what, we're going to get custom moves. That's a dumb argument to use.

And if memory serves, MetaKnight got banned for a time and wobbling was called into question on its legality at Evo. if a move or character is too over-powered, there's always something to be done about it so long as it was made by a committee and not just one person.

Custom moves are inevitable. And it's going to open up new possibilities, and those possibilities I'm looking forward too. Maybe someone will find anti-Diddy tech with them? Maybe someone will find a meta-changing tactic with them? it's all up in the air, and it's there for whoever wants it the most to take advantage of, adapt to, and practice with and against.

 

[Mic_128]

How many custom moves are there? 300+? Chances are At least a few of them have to be broken

They've all been played, and I don't recall any of them suddenly making a character overpowered.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

How many custom moves are there? 300+? Chances are At least a few of them have to be broken, since they are not design for competitive play. Even if you wanted to test it out evo is the worst time to test it out. Test it out after evo.

How do you know that? In an interview a little while back Sakurai stated that, in regards to custom moves, if there are any glaring issues they may address them. So clearly he knows that people are going to use them for competitive play, otherwise what would be the point of balancing them?

 

[hype machine]

Lol alright fine lets have custom moves at evo, I don't care anymore But if something goes wrong and smash 4 makes a fool of themselves at evo, don't cry about it and expect another year at evo.

 

[hype machine]

How do you know that? In an interview a little while back Sakurai stated that, in regards to custom moves, if there are any glaring issues they may address them. So clearly he knows that people are going to use them for competitive play, otherwise what would be the point of balancing them?

Can you even use custom moves in for glory mode? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't nintendo set up the rules for evo? If they didn't put custom moves as an option you wouldn't think that it's meant for competitive play?

 

[Jigglymaster]

Can you even use custom moves in for glory mode? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't nintendo set up the rules for evo? If they didn't put custom moves as an option you wouldn't think that it's meant for competitive play?

You have to consider that if customization is ON, equipment can be too. Perhaps this is why it is not seen on For Glory. Because anybody can just slap equipment on and there can be nothing done about it. Of course, if you try that at an actual tournament you'd get DQ'd. Wouldn't you agree this is logical reasoning as to why you don't see this on For Glory? There actually is no real option to allow customs but disable equipment.

 

[moyshe]

I really hope this is just a bad dream and I'll wake up and the smash community isn't actually considering something like custom movesets.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

You can't use custom moves on For Glory but that mode really should not have an influence on our rules. Banning custom moves just because you can't use them on FG is the same as banning all non-FD/Omega stages and the Miis.

And no, Nintendo does not decide the rules. They let the TOs handle that.

 

[hype machine]

I really hope this is just a bad dream and I'll wake up and the smash community isn't actually considering something like custom movesets.

Nah man we just did a voting poll for custom moves and 80% approved custom moves to be at evo. Gg m8