Proposed Evo 2015 Smash 4 Ruleset: Customs Possible!

[Mario49]

ZeRo already saying that he doesn't think including customs is a wise dicision in the tweets.

I hope top players like him start having an open mind about custom moves and take the time to learn about them properly.

Zero is just being salty since Diddy has no good customs.

 

[moyshe]

I think I found the devide between competitive and noncompetitive players in the smash community. I'm out tho.

 

[Pazx]

I'm really excited for customs at such a large tournament and I don't see any downside, great news.

 

[Pazzo.]

Not baiting, I'm honestly upset about this. I personally feel like this game was just ruined right in front of my eyes.

I advice that you rethink your stance carefully.

 

[AKC12]

How can you not see that it's just as random as items? You would have to prepare for any sort of type of moveset combination, how is that not different from allowing Special Smash for instance? Lets say 7 items were allowed instead of all of the items, instead of just preparing for a character MU we'd have to prepare for those 7 items we'd have to know exactly what to do with those 7 items but they would still be random. Each item would come out at different times and would never be consisitent, each character you face would have a different moveset and wouldn't be consisitent. But maybe items are a bit of a stretch so lets go back to Special Smash, lets say we allow Smash 4 no items bunny ears sped up and metal turned on, how is that different than custom movesets?

I just think this is kind of a joke and I deeply hope that tournaments will not do this. I'd rather go back to melee than put anymore time into a game that allows custom moves.

What in the world, are you being serious? Custom moves are set in stone for the match once its selected, and like you said you can prepare for it. Thus it's not random.

 

[Charey]

How can you not see that it's just as random as items?

If I set Dragon Rush and hit side-b it's not going to randomly have Crash Bomb or Monado arts come out.

 

[Caryslan]

I really really really hate this, I dont think custom moves has any place in competitive smash and just makes smash 4 more of a laughing stock. I'm cancelling any plans I had to go to evo because of this. I wish there was a vote or something done because there is no aspect of custom moves that is competitive. It's random, now every character we have to expect different moves out of which changes match ups and changes our knowledge of each character. As long as smash has been around since 64 to Smash 4 when we learn the game we learn characters dilligently and I think this ruins that completely. It's really really sad, I really hope this doesnt catch on to other tournaments.

That's why we should allow custom moves, so nobody can pick a hard counterpick just because they know what a character can do. Think about it this way, everyone knows how to counter Mega Man's default moveset.

People know what the Metal Blades, Leaf Shield, Rush Coil, and Crash Bombs do. They can simply counterpick against that. Now, what if Mega Man can use moves like Hyper Bombs, Skull Barrier, Ice Slasher, and Beat?

It changes the dynamics of the match, and forces someone to put more effort into counter picks. Hyper Bombs act differently from Metal Blades. What might work to counter Metal Blades might not work against Hyper Bombs.

It's now no longer "Character A can counter Character B" because you don't know 100% what specials that character has. Customs also make characters like Ganondorf and Paluntina more viable.

I don't get the random argument either. The Custom Moves are in all copies of the games. It's possible to practice and figure out what the customs moves do and how to deal with them. There is nothing random about it!

Why are people so afraid of this? Marvel vs Capcom 3 lets you pick assists, and Street Fighter IV lets you pick ultra moves. This is the same idea, only on a bigger scale.

It also stops the game from being static in terms of matchups. Now, it's no longer "I know what this Link can do, so I'll just pick a counterpick to shut him down." Now it turns into "I don't know if this Link will have the Gale or normal boomaring, so I can't pick a hard counterpicks."


Custom Moves make the matchups more dynamic and less prone to just safely picking a counterpick. Now, some real thought and knowledge has to go into counterpicks. The only thing that is changed is the specials anyway. All normal moves remain the same.

Customs are in the game, people can practice against them and learn what each customs move does for each character. There is nothing random about it, and it can only make the game more intresting to watch since characters are no longer static and locked into a single moveset.

 

[Pazzo.]

I think I found the devide between competitive and noncompetitive players in the smash community. I'm out tho.

Although I disagree with you, that was a little harsh...

 

[Zzuxon]

Ah, by the way, regarding stages and music. I'm gonna put this in large text so that everyone can see, because it's important:

Tetris Type B plays on Wuhu. That is why it is banned.

 

[Gidy]

I'm done with Nintendo and Smash 4s rulesets. They stop us from using stages and they don't allow fan games to be at tournaments. Then 3 Stock is still not a thing.

...competitive Smash 4 is getting worse and worse imo.

 

[Mic_128]

How can you not see that it's just as random as items? You would have to prepare for any sort of type of moveset combination, how is that not different from allowing Special Smash for instance?

Because Special Smash changes properties of how characters can move, jump, take knockback and a whole bunch more that completely changes everything about the game.

Custom moves just tweak 4 moves of a character. They all take the same damage, have the same knockback, same movespeed. EDIT: Talking about the characters themselves, not their moves. Special Smash changes basic attacks, arials, grabs, while Custom moves don't.

You would have to prepare for any sort of type of moveset combination

Competitive Pokemon does this, on a much larger scale with the variety of moves and other variables and is still competitive. Melee players (in the US mostly) have had to deal with version differences, so again, it's not an unknown in Smash.

Lets say 7 items were allowed instead of all of the items, instead of just preparing for a character MU we'd have to prepare for those 7 items we'd have to know exactly what to do with those 7 items but they would still be random. Each item would come out at different times and would never be consisitent

True.

each character you face would have a different moveset and wouldn't be consisitent.

False. They wouldn't be consistent between matches, sure. But it's not as if they'll use 2 different Up-B's in a single match. It's easy enough to deal with, and isn't random in any way, shape or form.

I just think this is kind of a joke and I deeply hope that tournaments will not do this. I'd rather go back to melee than put anymore time into a game that allows custom moves.

On the other hand, I'd rather play a game with allowable custom moves that could help level the playing field when it comes to a small number of characters winning tournaments. This could be a great solution to balance issues.

Showing moves before the match begins? Wasting time in tournaments + do you expect for an opponent to adapt in a few seconds to that?

Why not? Could easily make it that the first 10 seconds of a match, you have to perform your four B moves. Or even just say before you start "I have Link's big bombs." "I have Samus's Ice missiles and larger morph bombs." "Okay, lets go"

 

[Caryslan]

This is really sad that this is the direction that Smash 4 is going to already, I see no difference between allowing custom moves and allowing items. Melee and PM truly are the only two competitive smash games now. RIP Smash 4.

So what, we just play it safe with matchups that never change and the same characters that always win tournaments?

Custom movesets open an oppunrinty that has never existed before, namely the ability for players to adjust characters based on matchups and make counterpicks less of an exact art.

Custom Moves and Items are not the same thing. Items randomly spawn, and often have effects that can disrupt the balance of a match.

How is a Mega Man being allowed to choose between Metal Blades, Shadow Blades, and Hyper Bombs the same thing? A character can still only have one move in each custom slot. It's not random at all. You can even practice against characters with custom moves and learn how they work.

The only thing that changes is that players simply have more options to either deal with bad matchups(Could dire hydrant or on-fire hydrant had made a difference in the Top 8 match with Pac-Man vs Rosalina?) or keep opponents from simply being able to predict what they might use.

It opens up the possibles of the matchups, and keeps them from being the same static matchups every single time.

How does giving characters and players more options a bad thing that affects the competitive nature of the game?

 

[warriorman222]

How can you not see that it's just as random as items? You would have to prepare for any sort of type of moveset combination, how is that not different from allowing Special Smash for instance? Lets say 7 items were allowed instead of all of the items, instead of just preparing for a character MU we'd have to prepare for those 7 items we'd have to know exactly what to do with those 7 items but they would still be random. Each item would come out at different times and would never be consisitent, each character you face would have a different moveset and wouldn't be consisitent. But maybe items are a bit of a stretch so lets go back to Special Smash, lets say we allow Smash 4 no items bunny ears sped up and metal turned on, how is that different than custom movesets?

I just think this is kind of a joke and I deeply hope that tournaments will not do this. I'd rather go back to melee than put anymore time into a game that allows custom moves.

In tourneys, if you don't tell your opponent your set or lie about it, you get DQ'ed just like that. It isn't allowed online, adn even if you're not told, almost all characters have 1 good set with little variation. And saying this is like saying "I don't want to learn the new MUs, so I'd rather have a usable list of 5 out of 10 characters and let the meta literally die, than let the low tiers have recognition".

 

[moyshe]

The cool thing about smash in the past was that, yeah theres a top tier, and yes those characters are hard to beat with low tier characters but players changed the meta THEMSELVES, they took a low tier character and played them so differently and so perfectly that they would move that character up the tier list and open up different ways top tier characters can be beat with that character. This example of creativity and ingenuity helped paved the way for other players that would follow suit behind them. Mango with Jiggs, Chu with Icies, Armada with Peach, Ninjalink and ADHD with Diddy, Lain with icies, etc, these players all moved characters up tier lists by applying what made smash great, creativity. Whats the point of breeding creativity in a community if you can change movesets and win a MU that way? The thing that made smash great to me was killed here, even the thing that made brawl great (which there weren't many things that made brawl great.)

Also, if the number 1 player in the competitive scene of your game is saying this isn't a good idea might be wise to listen.

 

[Mic_128]

Whats the point of breeding creativity in a community if you can change movesets and win a MU that way?

Whats the point of breeding creativity in a community if you can change characters and win a MU that way?

Also worth mentioning, since we all glossed over it, is that it'll likely be using the community suggested presets (Link) so the number of combinations drops.

Honestly, this is just like Clones. We don't ban those.

 

[Zzuxon]

The cool thing about smash in the past was that, yeah theres a top tier, and yes those characters are hard to beat with low tier characters but players changed the meta THEMSELVES, they took a low tier character and played them so differently and so perfectly that they would move that character up the tier list and open up different ways top tier characters can be beat with that character. This example of creativity and ingenuity helped paved the way for other players that would follow suit behind them. Mango with Jiggs, Chu with Icies, Armada with Peach, Ninjalink and ADHD with Diddy, Lain with icies, etc, these players all moved characters up tier lists by applying what made smash great, creativity. Whats the point of breeding creativity in a community if you can change movesets and win a MU that way? The thing that made smash great to me was killed here, even the thing that made brawl great (which there weren't many things that made brawl great.)

Also, if the number 1 player in the competitive scene of your game is saying this isn't a good idea might be wise to listen.

Yes, because allowing people to customize and adjust their characters movesets stifles creativity. It's uncreative to have 4^4 different specials combos on each character, on top of playstyle innovation and new techs.
Are you really this dense?

 

[moyshe]

Yes, because allowing people to customize and adjust their characters movesets stifles creativity. It's uncreative to have 4^4 different specials combos on each character, on top of playstyle innovation and new techs.
Are you really this dense?

What creativity goes into changing your moves so you can win a MU? That literally kills any drive to win a MU by developing your own unique playstyle. Keep insulting me man. I really don't care.

 

[Fye]

What creativity goes into changing your moves so you can win a MU? That literally kills any drive to win a MU by developing your own unique playstyle. Keep insulting me man. I really don't care.

You're acting like characters have some custom to counter every matchup. Customs mostly improve characters overall. There may be some that help in a certain matchup but it's not a press B to win button. For example, I main Metaknight and prefer his original set over his customs. Tomorrow, somebody may have had the creativity to use "shieldbreaker drill" in some sort of kill setup that's not obvious.

 

[warriorman222]

What creativity goes into changing your moves so you can win a MU? That literally kills any drive to win a MU by developing your own unique playstyle. Keep insulting me man. I really don't care.

It's not changing for MUs, it'c changing because said move is now usable in 1v1. Timber and Warlock Punch are horrible in 1v1, but Timber Counter shuts down ground and projectile approach, while Warlock Thrust is a high range armored kill move. Each mov e has drawbacks, too: Warlock Blade will cause memes, has less armor and kill power is drastically reduced, and Timber Counter has 10(down from 40) HP and never kills.
By developing your unique playstyle, the opponent does too, adding a new twist to the battle when you realize that Shulk can kill you faster with smash Monado, but now you nearly OHKO him with your bowling ball cause lighter than Puff. Or on the contrary, his sprout forces you to be more careful with Speed Monado, but you can use Jump Monado and beat Villager;s aerial "superiority" and actually kill him offstage and make it back, having the game's best jumps and airspeed.

Your own unique playstyle makes the MUs more interesting, makes the strive to win greater, and the matches even hypier. trust me, I've seen it, and felt it.

We're not insulting you, we're disagreeing with you. Sorry if you seem bandwagoned, but honestly, most people in the world thing customs should be tournament legal, and if they were as random as you make them to be, that wouldn't be the case.

Also ZeRo is just salty because all of Diddy's customs suck. Which is a good thing, because if customs don't get allowed, our community likely will let and allow Diddy to ruin any future this game has. You saw what happened at Apex(Winner: Diddy Kong!). Many people in our community are that dense. Customs is our only chance to stop that.

 

[byebye]

ZeRo already saying that he doesn't think including customs is a wise dicision in the tweets.

I hope top players like him start having an open mind about custom moves and take the time to learn about them properly.

To be fair to Zer0, he just says it is not wise to do this Evo. Evo2015.
He likes the "let's develop smash4 in a slowly but surely way."
I like the "if not now, there might not be next time" approach or "fail early / fail fast" approach.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Zero is just being salty since Diddy has no good customs.

Him an Nairo are looking out for the good of everyone.

They want to ease into customs being legal, not forcing them at an EVO before most of the community has good experience with them and setting them up.

I can respect that, even if I think this can be fixed in the coming months.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's not changing for MUs, it'c changing because said move is now usable in 1v1. Timber and Warlock Punch are horrible in 1v1, but Timber Counter shuts down ground and projectile approach, while Warlock Thrust is a high range armored kill move. Each mov e has drawbacks, too: Warlock Blade will cause memes, has less armor and kill power is drastically reduced, and Timber Counter has 10(down from 40) HP and never kills.
By developing your unique playstyle, the opponent does too, adding a new twist to the battle when you realize that Shulk can kill you faster with smash Monado, but now you nearly OHKO him with your bowling ball cause lighter than Puff. Or on the contrary, his sprout forces you to be more careful with Speed Monado, but you can use Jump Monado and beat Villager;s aerial "superiority" and actually kill him offstage and make it back, having the game's best jumps and airspeed.

Your own unique playstyle makes the MUs more interesting, makes the strive to win greater, and the matches even hypier. trust me, I've seen it, and felt it.

We're not insulting you, we're disagreeing with you. Sorry if you seem bandwagoned, but honestly, most people in the world thing customs should be tournament legal, and if they were as random as you make them to be, that wouldn't be the case.

Also ZeRo is just salty because all of Diddy's customs suck. Which is a good thing, because if customs don't get allowed, our community likely will let and allow Diddy to ruin any future this game has. You saw what happened at Apex(Winner: Diddy Kong!). Many people in our community are that dense. Customs is our only chance to stop that.

I doubt he is being selfish about it and neither is Nairo. Nairo wants them legal, idk about Zero, but they do not think right now is a good time to make them legal this year.

 

[warriorman222]

I doubt he is being selfish about it and neither is Nairo. Nairo wants them legal, idk about Zero, but they do not think right now is a good time to make them legal this year.

Maybe, but this comment(his, not yours) Is the same person who yelled on Twitter that lucario was busted and needed nerfs, that Diddy was broken and needed banning, then proceeded to main diddy and win Apex with him, starting a wave of Diddys that the community will staad by and let destroy the meta rather than not complaining and developping countertactics... Seriously, people are being so fatalistic about Diddy, and are just letting this happen. Unless the people develloping counters get out quick, or customs get allowed quickly enough for Mii Brawler to kick diddy out first place, or a patch comes... Unless one of those happen fast, our community is just gonna encourage Diddy to destroy the Smash 4 metagame. That may seem like BS, but the countertactics for Diddy aren't getting out, and balance patches seem out. So basically the only thing to save us form ourselves are gonna be customs. More reasons are more reasons.

I may seem fatalistic, but this can happen if the complainers (which are an extremely vocal supermajority) don't stop.

 

[Icebeatsfire]

Competitive pokemon

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Maybe, but this comment(his, not yours) Is the same person who yelled on Twitter that lucario was busted and needed nerfs, that Diddy was broken and needed banning, then proceeded to main diddy and win Apex with him, starting a wave of Diddys that the community will staad by and let destroy the meta rather than not complaining and developping countertactics... Seriously, people are being so fatalistic about Diddy, and are just letting this happen. Unless the people develloping counters get out quick, or customs get allowed quickly enough for Mii Brawler to kick diddy out first place, or a patch comes... Unless one of those happen fast, our community is just gonna encourage Diddy to destroy the Smash 4 metagame. That may seem like BS, but the countertactics for Diddy aren't getting out, and balance patches seem out. So basically the only thing to save us form ourselves are gonna be customs. More reasons are more reasons.

I may seem fatalistic, but this can happen if the complainers (which are an extremely vocal supermajority) don't stop.

I want to see if they can work out a ruleset that works at evo and know how much more time it would take.

That is a legitimate concern and I think regardless of what Zero or Nairo think about the subject, for the TOs that is something that needs to be addressed.

 

[moofpi]

Guys I just had a revelation. With a cast this large and varied and with each character having crazy combinations of special moves... Teams just achieved unlimited potential.


And I'm not even talking Squads.

 

[Chris Sifniotis]

Wow! I'm staggered it took such a short amount of time to legalize custom moves in a big contest. Good on 'em. Can't wait to see the results of this move.

 

[Nairo]

Yeah guys I don't mind customs being legal in the future just not at this first EVO. I also worded some things wrong but some people understood most of what I said.

 

[Shirma Akayaku]

Ah, by the way, regarding stages and music. I'm gonna put this in large text so that everyone can see, because it's important:

Tetris Type B plays on Wuhu. That is why it is banned.

Can't we just disable certain songs? It can be easily done, no?

 

[warriorman222]

Guys I just had a revelation. With a cast this large and varied and with each character having crazy combinations of special moves... Teams just achieved unlimited potential.


And I'm not even talking Squads.

How to Ultimate gimp: Pushy Lloid Villager+Volatile Breathing/ Pushing Salutation Wii Fit. push them off, blow them away, push them some more, then bowling ball if they survive this long.

Can't we just disable certain songs? It can be easily done, no?

Off songs still have modest (5-10%) chances of being picked. I have hTP off, and occasionally I hear that and other themes (only Smash 4 is on). One time I heard Cruel Smash even everything else was full and it min on BBattlefield.

 

[Pazzo.]

To be fair to Zer0, he just says it is not wise to do this Evo. Evo2015.
He likes the "let's develop smash4 in a slowly but surely way."
I like the "if not now, there might not be next time" approach or "fail early / fail fast" approach.

Well, there's months of advance warning, YouTube videos showcasing every single custom, and people like @Amazing Ampharos making Custom moves easy and accessible.

There's no reason for any of us to be xenophobic about implementing these into the metagame.

 

[_gold_]

Not too sure how I feel about this. I'm not a huge fan of customs, seeing as I still haven't found one that stands out to me. The default moves usually tend to be better anyways.
Could make tourney's pretty interesting though.

 

[stancosmos]

Hopefully this works out! if people are upset about the balance in this game, and think diddy is OP and there's not enough offense, this is the solution. if Lol players can learn to adapt against hundreds of characters, why can't the smash community? If sm4sh ever gets any success as a strategic and balanced game, it will be because of custom moves.

 

[Vilnius]

What exactly is preventing players from using the stage builder to make a set of community approved tournament stages? You can even customize where blast zones are.

 

[Mic_128]

They want to ease into customs being legal, not forcing them at an EVO before most of the community has good experience with them and setting them up.

I can respect that, even if I think this can be fixed in the coming months.

The only problem with that is the argument of "They aren't legal, why should I be bothered learning them?"

Now people have a reason to learn them.

Unless [...] customs get allowed quickly enough for Mii Brawler to kick diddy out first place

1111 Brawler should be legal, along with 1111 Gunner, Swordsman and Palutena.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The only problem with that is the argument of "They aren't legal, why should I be bothered learning them?"

Now people have a reason to learn them.



1111 Brawler should be legal, along with 1111 Gunner, Swordsman and Palutena.

That is a concern, a possible side effect if they aren't at EVO with other tournaments. This would for sure add a reason to learn them.

Still overall, I do see concerns I would like to listen to and see if they can be solved easily. Especially with the time concern with counter picking if a good method can be made without taking too long.

 

[warriorman222]

The only problem with that is the argument of "They aren't legal, why should I be bothered learning them?"

Now people have a reason to learn them.



1111 Brawler should be legal, along with 1111 Gunner, Swordsman and Palutena.

I mean 1122 Brawler in a customs on environment. Dapuffster with 1122 almost beat ZeRo, lost 2-3 in Grand Finals (not apex).

. The default moves usually tend to be better anyways.

Timber Counter, High Pressure FLUDD, Kong Cyclone, Helicopter Kick, Feint Jump, Hyper Monado, Power Counter, Power Bow, Dash Slash, Chain Judge, and a whole lot other of stuff beg to differ.

 

[moyshe]

Melee is looking pretty great after this.

 

[Mic_128]

Especially with the time concern with counter picking if a good method can be made without taking too long.

It shouldn't take any longer than regular counter picking.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It shouldn't take any longer than regular counter picking.

That's what I would assume as long as people don't stall it out. But I could be wrong on this.

I'm still in favor of them being legal overall, but I would like to check out data and get it covered hopefully to help ease this out.