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Proposal: Why not just try allowing all custom moves and equipment in tournament? [Now with a poll]

How should equipment and custom moves be handled in tournaments?

  • Ban Both

    Votes: 33 12.9%
  • Allow Equipment Only

    Votes: 3 1.2%
  • Allow Custom Moves Only

    Votes: 195 76.5%
  • Allow Equipment and Custom Moves

    Votes: 24 9.4%

  • Total voters
    255
Status
Not open for further replies.

ORANGEtheGORILLa

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I love badges in all but i mess around, and i found as a DDD main equipting all thtee megaton hammer badges i can deal 65% with a fully charged dsmash. The side effects are that im slow as balls and my defense is even worse
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Rechecking my stats, and it wasn't even an all out offensive Mac.

+102 atk, -6 def, -41 speed.

I wasn't really being sent flying any worse than usual due to my +60 defense badge. The speed loss didn't phase me either.

I think I might have overstated my smashes, but they did kill at less than 25%.

The counter just killed outright.
I think details like this are more important than whether the whole system is fair or balanced. #FoxNews

Sudden Death is 100% "fair" but still changes the game in a negative way. Fights are interesting as is. Do we really want equipment muckin' up the works?
 

DavemanCozy

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That's Wwhy people don't want to do it, they are too worried about a tier list. You don't need that with custom equipment. I hate the idea of a tier list as a whole Bbecause you can wreck with someone low tier if you know how to play
No. No no no.
  1. No one is worried about a tier list. The only one who sounds worried is you; "I hate tier list as a whole..."

  2. Tier lists aren't evil: a tier list exists for the purpose of giving an idea of how the character compares to the current meta-game. The beautiful part is that the metagame can change, and as the meta changes, so does the tier list. It's a beautiful process of evolution and adaption, just like real life.

  3. Like you said, you can win with low tier characters if you know how to play them to their strengths. It's considerably easier to do so in this game too: the entire cast is actually incredibly well balanced. Even Ganondorf and Link actually have things going for them.

    Does that mean Ganon can compete as a top character though? Heeeeell no. There are obviously much better characters in the cast: Greninja, Little Mac, Fox, Sheik, etc. All of these characters move much faster, have projectiles, good ground games or both to help control space, lots of different approach options, etc.

    Note that the above doesn't mean that you shouldn't play Ganon or another character either. If you like playing as that character, then go nuts. And even if I currently think that Ganon is bad, what if someone comes along to prove me wrong with a new strategy they found with the character?
    There are low-tier mains out there, like Will with DK in Brawl or Taj with Mewtwo in Melee, who take a low-tier character to a whole new level of high play. This game allows for much more of that too, due to how well balanced the cast seems to be, but that doesn't mean that top characters won't emerge eventually either.

    It's just natural for a tier list to develop, even with custom equipment. There are too many variables in Smash Bros to have a "perfectly balanced" game.

  4. Custom equipment varies for absolutely everybody's game too. The only way you can really balance the game is by distributing the same custom build for everyone in a tourney across the board, and that's incredibly time consuming.

    Even without custom equipment, there are still a ton of variables in place, that it's impossible to fully determine if the game is balanced or not. Hence, even if custom equipment were allowed to help with that, it is still incredibly difficult to perfectly balance this game: so difficult, in fact, that it's what Computer Scientists call an NP-hard problem. This means that it's so difficult to solve the problem, that it would take you a really long time to find the optimal solution due to the amount of different factors in play.
 
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Aenglaan

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Custom Moves are something that I think should be allowed for tournaments. It adds a very interesting twist to gameplay and makes the gameplay so much more engaging.

Equipment, however, appears inherently problematic given how random it is.
 

ScubaF_ingSteve

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Moves. So far as we've seen, the moves aren't game defining, they just give some character different sorts of tools they would otherwise not have. I'm fine with this, a meta will easily evolve around this and some characters can switch based on match up. Equipment, being purely random should be put on the shelf until we figure out a way to abuse the RNG so we can get competitive equipment or nintendo releases equipment with no stats but with skills.
 
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Scoliosis Jones

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I would definitely say just Custom Moves. Equipment is not easy to keep track of and can easily make particular characters overpowered, whereas Moves can simply change the way a character can be used. Even then, it's just their special moves.
 
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Thor

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Equipment could be obnoxious - how about Ganondorf OHKO dittos, or (my favorite idea thus far), a Puff with 3 passive heals? The strat: gimp them once, then time then out. And even if they're shooting stuff at you, dodge the big stuff, but who cares about 3% from a laser? You're getting back 6% every 2 or 3 seconds.

Custom moves help some characters out via improving otherwise poor or average recoveries, and none are really abusable just by existing (so far as we know).

So while I see no reason to ban custom moves, I see a reason to ban equipment. I vote for custom moves being legal and banning equipment.
 

Gerpington

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I don't see why people keep making these threads and arguing about it....it is very clear the community as a whole holds custom moves as a possibility, but mostly disapprove of equipment.

I guess the minority on this matter still want their voice to be heard, but in the end I can see custom moves only being in tournaments....at least for quite a while.
 

Balgorxz

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custom moves are all pretty balanced except DK's mach tornado so there's no reason to ban them, they are also easy to get.
now with custom moves there's a problem since smooth landing and hard braker improve the gameplay a lot but they are hard to get and have some stats problems, I'd like to see tournaments with allowed stats ranged (between -10 and 10) or something.
 

C_Mill24

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Equipment is really imbalanced. If equipment were to be allowed in a tournament setting, we would have to make a ban list of certain equipment set ups. I know custom moves are mostly balanced and I haven't heard anyone talk about a setup that is over powered yet.
 

san.

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Equipment scaling and some abilities are way too strong. It'll need to be limited to 1 equipment piece per person with a decent portion of skills banned and a ratio cap of 2:1. That's too many restrictions for a serious tournament and that's probably the minimum requirement.

There are some potentially extremely powerful custom moves, but they're still mostly variations of existing ones. I think it's fine to have them, and we have access to videos of each one for those who don't know much about them.
 
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TheBuzzSaw

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I'm curious to hear the opinions of the "Ban Both" voters.
 

murdokdracul

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I might actually have been fine with equipment if the number of points each piece subtracted from you was equal to the amount it added, but unfortunately, it's very possible to make builds with attack, speed and strength all above zero, which causes players who've unlocked more/better equipment to have the advantage. It would be too much trouble to moderate its usage fairly, so it should definitely be banned competitively.

Custom moves, on the other hand, are awesome without being stupidly unfair, and I love Sheik's Jellyfish and Link's Power Bow.
 

OnettGirl

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While I haven't really weighed in much on this matter I do feel like custom moves are a thing that have the potential to be allowed. They make the game deeper and allow people to experiment beyond a characters normal moves and mold a character to fit their preferred playstyle. It's also fairly easy to get all the custom moves for a character after a few rounds of Trophy Rush [at least that's what I found].

With equipment you're entering into a whole different ballgame. Each badge can have differing values depending on how generous the RNG's feeling. You could grind for months and never get get the badge you want. And then there's the fact that many of the badges and combinations can make a character completely broken. How do you test these kinds of things, as well as how do you ban them if there is a problem, as well as enforcing it. And especially at a tournament for the Wii U version each system would need to have everything unlocked, which again could take months if the RNG isn't on your side. It just leaves too many variables for things to go wrong in my book.

An important part of Smash is knowing your opponent's character. That's still feasible with custom moves, everyone will have the same custom moves for the same character as the other person. It would just take a little more time learning the ins and outs of each character. But with equipment you'll probably never be able to study all the possible combinations of characters and badges just based on the sole fact that you are at the will of the RNG.

That's just my two cents. I'm not going to claim that i'm a master of this game or know everything i'm talking about, I myself really haven't experimented with equipment too much outside of Smash Run and Classic mode. So I don't know the extent of equipment. I'm just taking from what i've played of the game thus far.

TLDR: What pretty much everyone else has said up to this point.
 

iVoltage

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Voted for custom moves only to be legal.

Equipment is broken, there is no reasonable way to balance these at all without setting specific ones that can be used or something of the sort which is highly unlikely. Custom moves from what I have seen are pretty alright. Sure you have to learn a bit more about more characters, but none of them bar dk's brawl-like meta knight tornado seem really extreme and then its just one move on an otherwise alright character) Personally I think that custom moves are an awesome idea to make legal, more variety and it can allow more character to be top teir possibly.
 

Shaya

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With the power of luck and whatnot, I'll try to imbue the original thread with this poll. JUST IN CASE SOMETHING GOES WRONG:
How should equipment and custom moves be handled in tournaments?
Edit
  1. Ban Both
    7 vote(s)
    10.9%
  2. Allow Equipment Only
    1 vote(s)
    1.6%
  3. Allow Custom Moves Only
    50 vote(s)
    78.1%
  4. Allow Equipment and Custom Moves
    6 vote(s)
    9.4%

andddddddddd successful fusion dance.
 
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Shaya

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The custom moveset thread had a poll that ended late september with 88% in favour of custom moves being legal. So people are rescinding a little bit now, but it's still a hyper-majority.
 

popsofctown

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The custom moveset thread had a poll that ended late september with 88% in favour of custom moves being legal. So people are rescinding a little bit now, but it's still a hyper-majority.
If you count the guy that said he misclicked equipment only as having wanted to click custom+equips, then it's still at exactly 88% support.
 

Zippy

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Custom Moves are an awesome way to not only help a player better adapt to their character's weaknesses, but also allows for a more diverse and strategic meta-game.

Although Custom Equipment also promotes this strategic style gameplay, it is way too easy to buff your character to the point of overpoweredness, and eventually everyone would begin to run the same Equipment sets (once they finally unlock all of the Equipment, that is). The game would become extremely defensive and camp-like because everyone would be able to KO at <50%.

Personally, I've been running all of my sets with extremely low defense and speed stats, and have barely been able to tell if I'm being KO'd more quickly or not, nor am I moving at an "unbearable" speed. However, my buffed up attack lets me KO at otherwise unrealistic percentages. However, I've also only used Custom Equipment in a few friendlies. I don't have much knowledge/experience with them at all.

There should definitely be side events with all Custom options allowed, though. I personally wouldn't partake in one, but it would be very interesting to observe them.
 
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Snakeyes

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I just want the Smooth Lander, Hard Breaker and potentially the Glider equips to be tournament-legal.
 

Gatoray

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Why did a moderator edit my post to have a poll? So mods can just go around hijacking people's threads whenever they want? (I did not add the poll nor did I edit the title).

Why can't people get it into their minds that YOU CAN HAVE MORE THAN ONE TYPE OF TOURNAMENT. The whole point of making this thread was to show people that we aren't giving equipment any amount of deserving chance for viability in tournament and a poll is just going to allow people to silently show bias for their opinion towards one area. Yes, I know equipment is random and it's hard to grind, but we can have more than one type of tournament, just like doubles and singles are two separate tournaments.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT EQUIPMENT SHOULD BE ALLOWED AT EVERY TOURNAMENT, SIMPLY GIVEN A CHANCE. By making a poll you are putting all discussion into tunnel-vision.
 

Shaya

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Why did a moderator edit my post to have a poll? So mods can just go around hijacking people's threads whenever they want? (I did not add the poll nor did I edit the title)..
If you really consider this a hijack, my apologies. All I did was add a poll and noted in the title one exists.
But this section is essentially managed and run by my standards. I would never act in a way to hijack someones thread if I felt doing so would produce a negative outcome. In fact, I think adding a poll to a now staled conversation is a lot more invigorating then people freely bumping things with one sentences with nothing new. People were using that new thread to discuss the same things happening here, which I also considered superfluous and disingenuous to the actual serious discussion.
 
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Gatoray

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If you really consider this a hijack, my apologies. All I did was add a poll and noted in the title one exists.
But this section is essentially managed and run by my standards. I would never act in a way to hijack someones thread if I felt doing so would produce a negative outcome. In fact, I think adding a poll to a now staled conversation is a lot more invigorating then people freely bumping things with one sentences with nothing new.
It makes sense when you put it that way, and I feel that people aren't fully understanding what I have to say in the first place, which contributes to a lot of the bumps. Maybe I should rewrite this thread with a stronger argument or something.
 

ぱみゅ

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No but seriously is this the first time smashboards been able to get a overwhelming majority on something?
*coughcough:metaknight:cough*
If equipment weren't that ridiculous, Soft Landing sounds like a great equipment to have.
 

andimidna

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I'm 100% for custom moves eventually. But there should probably be a waiting time while people are still learning the game and how to deal with the default character. For now default settings is fine but eventually customs need to be allowed imo.
Equipment I'm 50/50 on I haven't really checked it or yet. It depends.
So I didn't vote on the poll yet, but I still wanted to add support for at least custom moves eventually
 

Dellexe

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This is basically resolved but I'mma cast my vote, and offer my input, as well.
-
I am pro custom moves.
I am against equipment.
-
First off, I'd like to sum up some stuff on equipment. If it is allowed, and becomes commonplace, then it becomes a severely limiting gateway into the competitive scene. A character with universally buffed stats is without a doubt superior to a character without the universal buffs. This wouldn't be a problem, but, from what I've read in this thread and in others, getting equipment specific to your character, and providing substantial benefits without significant drawbacks, can be extremely time consuming. It also brings forth the point that not all equipment is created equal, it is completely luck based or based on how many dozens of hours you've sunk into grinding for equipment whether the equipment you have is even good or not. This is a serious issue to a community that wants to expand. Most people that I know don't have the time to spend hours grinding for that perfect piece of gear they need. Or for that matter even would want to! It puts a pointless and time-consuming gateway on entering the competitive scene without being a severe disadvantage.
-
Equipment is also horrendously imbalanced, as some people have pointed out in this thread. From things like Link's Death Arrow to a Lil Mac being able to KO with Counter at 0% to a flying, healing, Jigglypuff that will run away from you and laugh at your vain attempts to do damage. Without heavy restrictions, equipment would lead to niche strategies like this that would completely overwhelm and dominate the competitive scene. Why play X character like this when you could play Y character like this and have a move that will one-hit most opponents? No one wants to see two Jigglypuffs flying around the stage, always at 0% because of health regen and defence buffs for eight minutes or whatever the time limit ends up being.
-
And if you support the banning of certain equipment and regulation to stop the use of ridiculous strategies like those that have been mentioned, then I hope you're willing to run your own tournaments, because I highly doubt any sane TO would be willing to. The first issue is that a large chunk of equipment you're getting from grinding becomes obsolete because of its effects or because it falls outside of the equipment limits, meaning in order to get the ideal equipment set you have to grind for even longer. Te second is enforcement of these rules. A TO would have to check EVERY player's equipment for EVERY one of their characters potentially EVERY match or EVERY time another player thinks something is outside of the established limits. It is a massive time-sink and hassle that would make tournaments last for even longer than they already do. It would also be fairly easy to cheat and break the system, especially with 3DS or online tournaments. It sounds great in theory, but in practice would undoubtedly fall apart.
-
Custom Equipment just doesn't add enough value to the competitive scene to justify its impact. It would prove a barrier to newcomers, a massive hassle for organizers, and would eventually devolve into specific, niche strategies that are detrimental to the scene as a whole.
-
-
On to Custom Moves. I am a firm supporter of Custom Moves. They appear to be fairly well balanced, though some appear innately better than others, and would diversify and improve the variety of characters and strategies shown in the competitive scene. I have yet to see a custom move that is outright broken or straight better than any of its variants. If any custom move does end up being broken, or straight up better than its counterparts, then rules can be implemented around that. With regards to the actual process of implementation of these rules, or concern about similar hassles with equipment, I say that it is significantly easier to tell which custom moves a player is using that tiny differences in stats. It is extremely obvious a character is using a banned custom move as soon as they use it, rather than a player equipping a badge that allows them to star KO more easily, or a similar effect.
-
With regards to player knowledge, in order to be active in the competitive scene one already has to understand the moves and capabilities of any character they will face. Back in my League days I spent time learning champion's abilities, so that I might know how to react to them. I memorized, or developed a "feel" for, the cooldowns, ranges, mana costs, and speed of a large chunk of the abilities in the game. I did the same with Smash. One already has to know all the variations of Special moves, the variations of the normal ground attacks, smashes, and aerials of characters in order to play against them effectively. Custom specials add just another eight moves per character to understand, and many are very simple. X projectile pierces opponents but does less damage. Y recovery goes further but doesn't have a hitbox. Etc. It is fairly simple, and does not impede newcomers to the competitive scene significantly more than they otherwise would have been. And to top it off, players could simply be required to say what custom moves they're using before a match. It would take less than a minute to get it all sorted out if there was any confusion. Example: "As Sheik, I'm using Instant Warp, Piercing Needles, Inviting Grenades, and the Fish." "Which one is the Fish?" "It's the one that goes mostly horizontal and autocancels when it touches the ground." "Ah, gotcha."
-
-
Well, this turned out to be longer than I thought it would be. TL;DR: Boo equipment. Yay custom specials.
 

north-note

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It makes sense when you put it that way, and I feel that people aren't fully understanding what I have to say in the first place, which contributes to a lot of the bumps. Maybe I should rewrite this thread with a stronger argument or something.
you know what, the thread had just basically turn into weather or not should we allow custom move and equipment on tournament.
I think we should make a new thread that basically say "let make a tournament that allows custom move and equipment" and discuss how do we manage everything involving custom.
I'll be hearing your respond until then
 
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EraOfGames

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If you want equipment tourneys try hosting them yourself, whether wifi or offline and see if there are significant amount of people actually interested in said tourneys. Most smash players aren't interested in them though (at least as I've seen so far), so it'd have to start as a cult hit type thing (if it even did). Maybe eventually more people would be interested in equipment tourneys. But the thing is, saying you're allowing equipment in a tourney is going to be off-putting to people that would usually join, so TOs may not want to take that risk. Most TOs most likely don't even like equipment, there's no incentive for them to host an equipment tourney.

I don't think equipment would work well in a tournament setting. RNG equipment that must be grinded for, and there are many imbalanced equipment. Crit equipment is extremely unfair (though hilarious). I would have to try it more, but from the games I've played equipment drastically effects the balance of smash even outside crits, and even the pace of a match. To see how well equipment would work you'd have to try to make an equipment scene. You need to show other people that equipment in a tourney can be fun and can work.
 
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popsofctown

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Gatoray, this thread is kind of less successful than it could have been because it wasn't initially clear that you weren't insisting on equipment tourneys being main events. That tends to threaten people.

If you want to advance your cause, running a little friendcode equip tourney might be a good idea.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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One major problem with allowing "just custom move sets" is having to audit people. Do you just trust your players and only check under suspicion? What do you do about someone who "forgot" to remove equipment from their profile?
 

Shaya

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What do you do about someone who "forgot" to remove equipment from their profile?
The game has little icons displayed on character portraits when customizations are on, indicating if they have any equipment/items on. It's otherwise a neutral/grey colour. I'm not sure if this covers 100% of everything, but I think it may.

This is displayed to all players.
 
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BassManX

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Guys let's think about it and I will take an example, let's take a shot to another game,
Pokémon. Eventually i will return to Smash but wait a little.
Competitive Pokémon.
People needs to rely in their strategies with the pokémon they battle, for example, their attacks and equipment not always the same from trainer to trainer, and more important, the natures and the individual vales from 'mon to 'mon varies, you must breed pokémons until you make the correct one, the train it the most efficient way.
Usually people uses same Pokémon species and that's cool but not great, the varieties creates an interesting battle, let me remind you (if you saw it) the god based Pachirisu from the last World Championship who left open wide mouths.

Let's take a look back at Smash, custom moves will make the battles interesting, but the equipment you get will not always be the same from player to player, it gives a random (but fixed min/max for negative and positive) stats and bonus effects, some bonus effects gives to the player negatives bonus, but their negative stats are not too hard,
regular bonus effects give to the player a new diversity, but at a cost, you will suffer more negative stats. yada yada yada. (i think all know that)

My point is equipment should be legal because it could be more interesting, it could have more strategic ways to play and it could be fun.

Seriously think about it :D
 
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