[Project M] Yoshi Matchup Thread

[Scatz]

I don't care for dittos since it's just another matchup. It's not indicative of your skill level in a tournament. It should be about who you beat and your placings. Also, my Yoshi (from the few videos I uploaded) is only in lab mode right now. Tons of work is being put into getting rid of the tech barrier so that I can play / learn him in matches efficiently without having to worry about doing techs.

 

[TomBoComBo]

So where does almost beating Liquid'Ken put me?

 

[Scatz]

I wouldn't be on the list since I barely play Yoshi in tournament right now. You, Raptor, Didds, and Da Foot are the ones playing consistently in tournament. So, the results would show for you guys placements. Qwinn I never got to see much of so I left him out, but placings shouldn't matter since no one is taking tournaments yet with Yoshi. That should be the primary goal.

 

[didds]

Well we look forward to seeing when your Yoshi is polished and in tourney condition

 

[RaptorTEC]

Scatz, I've actually been winning my local tournaments lol. I haven't won a big tournament yet but all my placings are top 4 outside of SKTAR which I got 25th out of 260 I think.

Once Scatz starts going hard with Yoshi he'll be a force to be reckoned with watch out guys

 

[Dr. Robotnik]

Tombo, on the 19th we will be having a huge regional here, im hoping to win it, i got second at our last regional, went to grand finals through winners than lost to chip (think i mentioned it), and now that i have marth down, i dont know if anyone will be able to stop me, but i feel its deserved since i put more time and effort into smash than anyone in my region.

edit: The point of this is id like you to watch if you are not to busy. Going to attempt to play optimal the whole day.

 

[didds]

any chance you can post a link to wherever I can watch Mr. Foot sir?

 

[TomBoComBo]

@ Dr. Robotnik If you'll be playing at your best, that's great. I may ask though, are you open to a critique? Last time I critiqued you, you kinda spit in my face.

 

[thedarkyoshi]

Egg Tactics:

I have found eggs are good for offence, defense, distractions, controlling the field, and combos. If you want to read more check out my thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/egg-tactics.360721/

 

[Dr. Robotnik]

eh, I was super salty before. denial has been an ally. but yeah, i just didnt really like being critiqued on having fun, which is why i asked if you would watch this one, going to put it all down on the line.

http://www.twitch.tv/BreadnButterGames

 

[didds]

so the 19th your link will have your tourney? Any specific times you can give for PM play

 

[Sylnic]

I got my ass handed to me by a squirtle today. It was the first time I've faced someone who actually knows how to play him. Anyone have any tips to deal with his crazy movement and combos? I tried CCing his attacks, but he seemed to zip out of range before I could punish. What am I missing?

 

[TensenROB]

I got my *** handed to me by a squirtle today. It was the first time I've faced someone who actually knows how to play him. Anyone have any tips to deal with his crazy movement and combos? I tried CCing his attacks, but he seemed to zip out of range before I could punish. What am I missing?

The first thing I noticed about the matchup is dash grab won't grab Squirtle out of his side-b, but pivot grab does.

 

[Nikes]

I fought a squirtle in friendlies yesterday and wasn't sure what to do myself, but turns out egg roll beats his shell-shifting it seems.

 

[Dr. Robotnik]

nikes, that is correct. just stay out of range of squirtle and camp him out, as he has no real safe option to fight yoshi. wide stages are your ally, so ps2 and fd are great picks. dont go off stage though, his up-b is really good, just space out a good d-tilt and it should take him out.

 

[didds]

Learn to consistently pivot grab. It'll be your best friend against any kind of linear Squirtle aggression.

 

[Dr. Robotnik]

Didds is correct, grab makes killing the little turtle easy.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Here's the only thing I could find, Didds. x.x http://twitch.tv/smash_24/b/544809907
Around 2:00:35

I was pretty much off the whole day, but I got my game back together on this set. There's 2 other sets before that if you wanna see.

 

[Sylnic]

Absolutely loved the use of your Egg Lay reverses and turnarounds. Your pivot grabs were pretty on point as well. I'll have to try being a little more creative with my Neutral-B.

 

[didds]

Here's the only thing I could find, Didds. x.x http://twitch.tv/smash_24/b/544809907
Around 2:00:35

I was pretty much off the whole day, but I got my game back together on this set. There's 2 other sets before that if you wanna see.

Thank you, good to see some more stuff, I've got to incorporate more egg lay into my own game, it's too good.

You ever try full hop > DJC FF Dair? The speed that you come down with throws a lot of people off and can be pretty safe if you cross up their shield.

 

[Scaremonger]

Why do so many people in here think Peach is a good MU for Yoshi? It's almost unwinnable for Yoshi in Melee and neither character is fundamentally changed lol.

I'd like to know what you guys think of Ike, Olimar, and Sonic though.

 

[Scatz]

@ RaptorTEC I see your Brawl tactics hasn't slacked from one game to another lol.

@ Scaremonger I have little to no exp on any of those matchups. Nothing I can contribute.

 

[didds]

Why do so many people in here think Peach is a good MU for Yoshi? It's almost unwinnable for Yoshi in Melee and neither character is fundamentally changed lol.

I'd like to know what you guys think of Ike, Olimar, and Sonic though.

No experience with Olimar or Ike, but I know a little on the Sonic MU, and it pretty much comes down to pivot grabbing his aggressive approaches (which seems to be the key in a lot of aggressive MU's, fox, mk, squirtle, etc...). Yoshi can also DJ through a lot of Sonic's early kills like drop zone fairs and spring to uair. Campier Sonic is a much harder match, but Yoshi's egg roll and egg lay can stuff Sonic's DD'ing.

The MU is a lot about getting the grab, and making your punishes count. Dair can catch a grounded Sonic off a lot too, and punishing off a dair is like damn build-a-combo work shop, do what you want.

Dsmash like always can wreck Sonic's recovery if you read an attempted aerial on Sonic's part.

It's not an easy MU, but I think Yoshi is better equipped than most characters to deal with the blue ball.

 

[Dr. Robotnik]

We have a few peach mains here, and from playing both melee and pm, i can firmly say that yoshi has the upper hand in pm, id go as far as to say its at least 65-35 if not 70-30 yoshi favor. I big part of the issue in melee is there is no neutral game against peach for yoshi without the major risk of being taken out of your dj and dying early, but with pm there is just so many options for yoshi to approach now and recover that there is literally no issue with neutral game and yoshi can finish peach off hella early, even on dream land.

 

[didds]

#EGGLAYALLDAY
#EGGROLLWAT
#GRABGAMEMAKEPEACHLAME

 

[Scaremonger]

We have a few peach mains here, and from playing both melee and pm, i can firmly say that yoshi has the upper hand in pm, id go as far as to say its at least 65-35 if not 70-30 yoshi favor. I big part of the issue in melee is there is no neutral game against peach for yoshi without the major risk of being taken out of your dj and dying early, but with pm there is just so many options for yoshi to approach now and recover that there is literally no issue with neutral game and yoshi can finish peach off hella early, even on dream land.

Lol are you being serious right now?

 

[Praxis]

We have a few peach mains here, and from playing both melee and pm, i can firmly say that yoshi has the upper hand in pm, id go as far as to say its at least 65-35 if not 70-30 yoshi favor. I big part of the issue in melee is there is no neutral game against peach for yoshi without the major risk of being taken out of your dj and dying early, but with pm there is just so many options for yoshi to approach now and recover that there is literally no issue with neutral game and yoshi can finish peach off hella early, even on dream land.

Dude, we don't have great Peach mains in Eastern WA. Arti is our best (comains Falco/Peach/Fox) and he's a great player with a variety of characters who considers Peach his main, but in PM his Peach style is very specialized. He's got a great float-and-bait neutral game and then dsmashes like nuts, but his ground game is actually pretty lacking and he doesn't recatch or glide toss his turnips or do many mixups. And he doesn't do any PM stuff. His Peach is good, but it's extremely focused in baiting in neutral game, and your entire playstyle basically counters that; I don't feel like his Peach is well rounded.

I'm not saying he's bad, but I don't think his Peach is well rounded for PM, so he might really just struggle against Yoshi, and every other Melee/PM Peach in this region is terrible since brdy moved away years ago. And I can't play Melee Peach because DJC makes my brain go durr.

I don't think you can judge the matchup based on our region, until you play Bladewise's Peach. If he makes it to our Black Wolf tournament this weekend you should ask to MM his Peach.

EDIT: That said, @ Scaremonger , Yoshi is definitely fundamentally changed. He can do rising aerials now, and he can make the eggs rain down without exploding, and he has OOS responses to dair and float cancelled aerial pressure. That's a huge deal.

Peach in Brawl, despite being terrible, also wrecks Yoshi hard in that game too (because she is one of the only characters in Brawl that has safe shield pressure on METAKNIGHT, so Yoshi is trapped in his shield, and he can't get followups because of her floatiness). Changing his shield and the longer-going eggs fixes his issues from both games, and letting him choose between Melee second jump (DJC) and Brawl second jump (rising aerial) fixes issues from both games. Most of his issues with the MU ARE better. I think Robotnik's 65:35 claims are probably premature, but I don't doubt that Yoshi has a massively improved matchup.

 

[TensenROB]

Why do so many people in here think Peach is a good MU for Yoshi? It's almost unwinnable for Yoshi in Melee and neither character is fundamentally changed lol.

I'd like to know what you guys think of Ike, Olimar, and Sonic though.

The melee Peach in my area doesn't play Peach in PM, I don't think there are many good PM Peaches to play against so that skews opinion.

Ike isn't a good matchup for Yoshi, his moves break DJ armour early and makes for easy offstage edgeguarding with fair-dj-fair or qd-bair (Aether startup always breaks dj armour too). I've had success edgeguarding quicdraw recoveries with nair in its path but that's probably just them being lazy about manually attacking out of quickdraw. Ike is a very good weight for Yoshi to juggle but Ike combos Yoshi well too, and they lead Yoshi offstage which leads to Ike's edgeguarding power vs Yoshi.

 

[Scaremonger]

Well, @ Praxis , what I meant by "fundamentally changed" wasn't really things like rising aerials. While rising aerials and eggs that last longer do give him a shiny new tool to help him out, the things that made the matchup really bad in Melee are pretty much unchanged. For example, essentially Yoshi Defence = Crouch Canceling. Against Peach, Crouch Cancelling is not really the best idea. You're a peach main, I'm sure that's something you understand that pretty well. Dsmash (and dair to an extent, I guess) make parrying kind of not useful as well. So basically, Yoshi's defensive options are pretty crippled already, so I guess you should just play offense. But again, that just doesn't work on Peach. You see Yoshi get crazy upair strings on spacies and stuff in Melee, but when you try to do that to peach, she just sort of drifts away. She's too heavy to have enough hitstun for yoshi to combo effectively, and too light/floaty to stay close enough to the ground to be juggled. Punishes are pretty short-lived on Peach. To top it all off, what does Yoshi really do against Turnip camping? I guess in PM he could eggroll or something? I dunno. I feel like it might be a tiny bit better than the melee MU, but Peach is pretty much the answer to Yoshi on a fundamental level, and in order for the matchup to not be liquid cancer, Yoshi would have to be changed to the point where he was no longer Yoshi. Peach was pretty much created to be a counter to Yoshi, and I don't think that's ever going to change.

 

[didds]

I really don't see the Peach vs Yoshi MU to be as horrible as you make it sound. I think it's pretty even, maybe slightly in favor of one of them (not sure who exactly, not many great Peaches or Yoshis to watch). Yoshi does have the mobility to zone out Peach a bit and he can get guaranteed (i think) uair kills off of both egg roll and Dthrow, and it's not exactly that hard to land a grab. One good pivot grab against a mispaced fc fair is pretty feasible. Yoshi has to play Peach the same way everyone else does, win the neutral and never go in too hard.

Yoshi is a lot more than CC and Parry. I think you're underestimating Yoshi's ability to mixup his options about as much as Dr. Robotnik might have underestimated Peach's character against Yoshi as a whole.

 

[Praxis]

Well, @ Praxis , what I meant by "fundamentally changed" wasn't really things like rising aerials. While rising aerials and eggs that last longer do give him a shiny new tool to help him out, the things that made the matchup really bad in Melee are pretty much unchanged. For example, essentially Yoshi Defence = Crouch Canceling. Against Peach, Crouch Cancelling is not really the best idea. You're a peach main, I'm sure that's something you understand that pretty well. Dsmash (and dair to an extent, I guess) make parrying kind of not useful as well. So basically, Yoshi's defensive options are pretty crippled already, so I guess you should just play offense. But again, that just doesn't work on Peach. You see Yoshi get crazy upair strings on spacies and stuff in Melee, but when you try to do that to peach, she just sort of drifts away. She's too heavy to have enough hitstun for yoshi to combo effectively, and too light/floaty to stay close enough to the ground to be juggled. Punishes are pretty short-lived on Peach. To top it all off, what does Yoshi really do against Turnip camping? I guess in PM he could eggroll or something? I dunno. I feel like it might be a tiny bit better than the melee MU, but Peach is pretty much the answer to Yoshi on a fundamental level, and in order for the matchup to not be liquid cancer, Yoshi would have to be changed to the point where he was no longer Yoshi. Peach was pretty much created to be a counter to Yoshi, and I don't think that's ever going to change.

Except Yoshi has an entirely new set of defensive options in this game. The reason Yoshi's defensive game was so fundamentally based on crouch cancelling in Melee was because his shield was such a terrible option. That's what made Peach so effective. If Yoshi shielded, he was in a bad spot. Against Peach, if he crouch cancelled, he was in an even worse spot. Now, he can shield.

Yeah, dsmash makes parrying not that useful, but PM Yoshi still has the best shield in the game. It can't be shieldpoked (reducing dsmash effectiveness) and he has a ton of DJC options out of it and really good OOS options. Yoshi can safely shield, which completely eliminates Peach's primary advantage (Peach wrecked his CC game, which he had to rely on because of poor shield).


The fact that Yoshi's shield has gone from the worst in the game (which Peach particularly took advantage of in both Brawl and Melee) to the best in a game is a core fundamental change.

The rising aerial also helps him deal with her simply camping with floats.

I don't have any reason to believe that Yoshi counters her like Robotnik believes, but he does a lot, lot better.

 

[Scaremonger]

Damnit, I somehow completely forgot that he can Jump OoS now... Feeling pretty dumb right now, lol, that definitely changes the matchup a lot now that he has actual defensive options. He's less lacking in offense too, but his punish game still isn't that great against her. I'd say it's still solidly in peach's favor, but definitely not the unwinnable nightmare that it was in Melee.

 

[Praxis]

Damnit, I somehow completely forgot that he can Jump OoS now... Feeling pretty dumb right now, lol, that definitely changes the matchup a lot now that he has actual defensive options. He's less lacking in offense too, but his punish game still isn't that great against her. I'd say it's still solidly in peach's favor, but definitely not the unwinnable nightmare that it was in Melee.

Yup, haha. The shield change is the fundamental one. He can now shield, and he can now nair or DJC nair or WD jab OOS. It's scary.

 

[Scatz]

I don't think it'll end up being solidly in her favor considering that he can make serious traps on shield with the improved egg toss, and being able to poke much more efficiently with D-tilt. Not only that, but egglay's increased range makes a bigger deal in people that don't respect the space it takes up.

The matchup, if ever played at its best, will be tough for both characters to make a momentum swing from the neutral game; however, when one gets it, it can definitely be hard to stop their momentum with the tools they have.

Also, we probably have a legit glide toss now that we can jump OoS. THAT makes options a lot different since catching items isn't a far-fetched idea.

 

[Praxis]

The Foot meets the Foot.gif

@ Dr. Robotnik If you'll be playing at your best, that's great. I may ask though, are you open to a critique? Last time I critiqued you, you kinda spit in my face.

In case you weren't watching, here was his grand finals of the weekly. Zerxion, Jamnt0ast, and Chip did not enter (Jamnt0ast was TOing, Chip never shows, Zerxion arrived too late).

tombo, i agree, but honestly, people play here at such a low level that its damn near impossible for me to have any sort of fun playing correctly. like i said, only the mewtwo brings out my real yoshi

You know, I always come away from your posts with a craving for popcorn, Mark.

 

[didds]

well dayuummmm
watch out for footstool :/

 

[Shokio]

Yoshi mains, I need some advice.

I play on Dolphin a lot and to my surprise, I've played TONS of Yoshi mains on there. Now, 99% of them I actually beat, but even when I win, it's an EXTREEEEEEMLY hard match and I don't enjoy it at all. And I know it's the Yoshi match-up cause when these players do chose other characters, the matches instantly become 10x easier for me.

But so far I've only been winning off of my fundamentals alone, not because I'm good at the MU or because I'm exploiting his weaknesses.

So what exactly doesn't he excel in? What are his weaknesses? What can I exploit? Outside of his recovery of course (which most of the time I can't even take advantage of and I'll explain why), what other weakness does he have?

To be specific on what I'm having problems with:

1) I just can't seem to hit him out of his side-b most of the time. Either my attack just clanks with it or my attack doesn't go through at all and I just get hit by it. I dunno, it's almost like that move has some sort of intangibility sometimes (SEEMS like it, I'm not saying it's actually like that), or that it has a bigger invisible hitbox where it beats me to the punch. Even with ZSS, sometimes the paralyzer doesn't actually stop him, it's weird. Sometimes it will sometimes it won't. Is there something about the duration of side-b, where later hitboxes aren't as high-priority or something?

2) I also have trouble SDI'ing out of his combos. Seriously, once I get hit by the side-b, up-tilt, or uair, it's over - I'm about to receive a 80% combo. Is there something I'm doing specifically wrong, or are Yoshi's moves just naturally extremely hard to DI out of and there's not much you can do?

3) To the recovery thing, yes I can DSmash him with Zero Suit which pretty much insta-kills him, but I've rarely found an opportunity to actually do that. Due to Yoshi's floatiness, he's usually recovering high up where I can't even intercept him in the first place, nullifying his recovery weakness.

4) How high does Yoshi have to be for him to get to the point where he suffers a normal amount of hitstun? It is extremely hard for me to do low-percent combos as Yoshi recovers from attacks very quickly so I have to cut my combo short or not even go for it at all.

Obviously I play Roy and ZSS, so any advice for those specific chars is welcome, but mostly I'm just looking for in-general information. Despite the fact that I've beaten most Yoshi's I've played, I feel like I just can't crack the egg open (pun intended).

Thanks in advance!

 

[Dr. Robotnik]

The Foot meets the Foot.gif




In case you weren't watching, here was his grand finals of the weekly. Zerxion, Jamnt0ast, and Chip did not enter (Jamnt0ast was TOing, Chip never shows, Zerxion arrived too late).



You know, I always come away from your posts with a craving for popcorn, Mark.

except if you watch after that i still recovered. You did get one foot stool kill somewhere though.

And you know, i always come away from your posts needing a chemical cleansing, Chris.

 

[TomBoComBo]

The Foot meets the Foot.gif




In case you weren't watching, here was his grand finals of the weekly. Zerxion, Jamnt0ast, and Chip did not enter (Jamnt0ast was TOing, Chip never shows, Zerxion arrived too late).



You know, I always come away from your posts with a craving for popcorn, Mark.

I need to get a trip up there eventually and play in your guys's tournaments, I think it would be hella fun. I'll show you the strength of Tampa Players

 

[TomBoComBo]

@ Dr. Robotnik do you have Netplay on Dolphin?