[Project M] Yoshi Matchup Thread

[didds]

You can always send them above you with the down throw, bait the double jump and toss an egg. Try to read the egg hit for an uair finisher.

 

[Mumbo]

Someone teach me how to play against squirtle plzzzzzzzz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdE0jnww2GQ&list=UUNQJBqULtyOg9flR1jYpeaw

This is the game that made me realize how good WarioWare actually is for me.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Someone teach me how to play against squirtle plzzzzzzzz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdE0jnww2GQ&list=UUNQJBqULtyOg9flR1jYpeaw

This is the game that made me realize how good WarioWare actually is for me.

why you asking us? you figured it out on your own

 

[Mumbo]

why you asking us? you figured it out on your own

Well, I did pretty well game 2, but I think the stage helped me out a lot. I still don't quite understand the neutral game and how to deal with his approaches, especially on wider stages. His side b in particular I couldn't figure out. Eggroll is inconsistent and too slow to use on reaction, and DJC nairs ended up in trades where I lost my jump. I don't know if I just need to get the nair lower to the ground or do something else completely. I think diar works, but that has to be spaced and timed perfectly or else it is really punishable.

 

[Mumbo]

@ TomBoComBo Played a bit with a Bowser main. If you are chaingrabbing Bowser and he DI's any way but in front you can DJC uair into regrab til ~50%. And like you said if he DI's forward you can just regrab with a dash grab.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Well, I did pretty well game 2, but I think the stage helped me out a lot. I still don't quite understand the neutral game and how to deal with his approaches, especially on wider stages. His side b in particular I couldn't figure out. Eggroll is inconsistent and too slow to use on reaction, and DJC nairs ended up in trades where I lost my jump. I don't know if I just need to get the nair lower to the ground or do something else completely. I think diar works, but that has to be spaced and timed perfectly or else it is really punishable.

You CAN use eggroll to avoid squirtle's side-b. The little hop you do to start is it enough to go over the top of squirtle. Then you go the opposite way and either push him off the stage or get a free combo on him. If you don't do that, you can shorthop over him and then eggroll sice the mechanics behind squrtile's side b are very similar to Yoshi's eggroll. If he turns around, his damage is reset, if you're rolling at him, he'll be combo food. AND if he turns around, he loses his armor. Other than that, grab to downthrow to upair or nair or fair or upsmash. Lastly, if you're patient and your timing is excellent and the squirtle is not sweet-spotting the ledge (since he's confident in the disjoints in his upB) You can wait a spit second and then run in stopping just short of where he'll finish the upB and then immediately Downsmash, You'll catch (and kill) him. The spacing is crazy important and the timing is even moreso. You have to dash in at the correct time. I takes practice, just like when I showed you the gimp that makes Ike free, but it's crazy effective.

Hope this Helped!

and also, yeah, I told you guys true, Yoshi has chain grabs

 

[-Maddox-]

If squirtle approaches with grounded side-b you can run away from it and pivot grab him.

 

[TomBoComBo]

If squirtle approaches with grounded side-b you can run away from it and pivot grab him.

that too, but you have to read the side-b beforehand because the side-b is faster than Yoshi's dash->pivot. Gotta do it early otherwise you get bopped

 

[Mumbo]

Having played for long enough and after getting enough experience with most characters, here's my list. Advantage or Disadvantage means from the perspective of the Yoshi.

The Matchups:

Significant Advantage:


Advantage:


Marginal Advantage:


Even:


Marginal Disadvantage:


Disadvantage:


Significant Disadvantage:


Explanations:
Captain Falcon:

Spoiler

You can get easy juggles on Falcon with his fall speed and edgeguards are free. He has a hard time comboing you, especially if you still have your jump, and he has a hard time edgeguarding you too. He's easy to grab and eggroll beats a lot of his stuff.

@ TomBoComBo :"Falcon has a **** techroll and can be destroyed on techchases. Plus rising Nair beats his UpB and you have 4 different ways to punish him for not sweetspotting the ledge."

Edit: moved from Advantage to Significant Advantage as per evidence from @ TomBoComBo

Ice Climbers:

Spoiler

I've played against the Ice Climbers once and 4 stocked them. They player using them wasn't exactly the best but I still noticed that they had trouble getting anything going. Egglay separates them, Downsmash destroys them, down tilt is good too. I don't have much experience with them so I am also bandwagoning off of what other people have said.

Olimar:

Spoiler

I've never once dropped a game to an Olimar. I have a friend who is significantly better than me who plays Olimar, and he beats other players in my region who are a lot better than me, but I have absolutely no trouble beating his Olimar. Olimar is just not a very good character overall, and it shows in this matchup. Downsmash hurts and his recovery is pretty risk free to edgeguard, in addition to not working in the first place. He's pretty good combo weight but he can't really combo Yoshi. Grabs are really good on Olimar.

Wolf:

Spoiler

Just a Fox that does different stuff. Edgeguarding and comboing him are the same as Fox and he doesn't really have any extra tools against Yoshi Offensively like Falco does.

DK:
Fox:

Spoiler

If the fox is better than you he can outspace you and win, but if each player is of about equal skill level, and certainly if the Yoshi player is better, I believe Yoshi is a strong counter to Fox. Fox is a light fast faller, which is excellent for Yoshi's combos. All Yoshi needs is one grab to obliterate Fox's stock with regrabs, uptilts, upsmashes, and upairs to combo and nairs and downsmashes to kill or set up for an edgeguard. Yoshi can Nair out of upthrow->upair til about 50%, and jump out of it at higher percents. Jump armor in general can ruin Fox's approaches. If you've practiced your edgeguards, downtilt, downsmash, and rising nair destroy Fox's linear recoveries for an easy kill.

Edit: Moved Fox from Significant Advantage to Advantage due to substantial evidence from @ didds

Ike:
Marth:
Sheik:
Squirtle:
Bowser:
Falco:

Spoiler

Like Fox and Wolf, but lasers are a significant problem. He can shield pressure you a lot harder than the other two and getting hit by Falco leads to a lot more than from Fox or Wolf. Pillars are devastating. He's still easy to juggle and even easier to edgeguard than the other two though. He's difficult to grab because he can just laser you and your grabs are pretty slow and he can edgeguard you with shines and back airs a lot more effectively than the other two. Eggroll is hard to use in this matchup.

Mr. Game and Watch:
King Dedede:
Lucario:
Lucas:
Meta Knight:
Pikachu:

Spoiler

Very little experience so I made a rough, safe guesstimate.

Charizard:
Diddy Kong:
Ivysaur:
Jigglypuff:
Mewtwo:
Ness:
Wario:
Yoshi:

Spoiler

Mirror

Ganondorf:

Spoiler

Each Character has free edgeguards on the other. Ganondorf can take your jump super fast and there's not a whole lot you can do once he has. He hits you hard and far giving him plenty of time to set up for edgeguards. His forward tilt and forward stuff Yoshi's approaches pretty well. You can combo him decently well but if you mess up and he hits you that could mean your stock right then and there.

Mario:
Pit:
R.O.B.:
Roy:
Samus:
Snake:
Sonic:
Toon Link:

Spoiler

Really easy to combo and kill but he can snag your jump early with fsmash, downair, and up b. A platform camping Toon Link is especially hard to deal with because he is fast and has great mobility. Yoshi doesn't have the best tools to deal with projectiles.

Kirby:
Link:
Luigi:
Peach:
Zero Suit Samus:

Spoiler

Her projectiles are hard to deal with. Her range and disjoints are hard to deal with. If you get stunned without a jump that's your stock. If you get caught in a nairplane with no jump, that's your stock. In fact, if you don't have your jump at any point in time, that's probably your stock. Backair and Forwardsmash both gimp your jump at ridiculously low percents (~50%). Getting grabbed hurts a lot. Not quite as bad as Zelda, but certainly a difficult matchup.

Edit: Moved from Significant Disadvantage to Disadvantage as per the opinions of @ didds and @ TomBoComBo

Zelda:

Spoiler

This matchup has been scientifically proven to be 99-1 in Zelda's favor. All of Zelda's disjoints are extremely difficult to work around. Her moves have high base knockback and are multihit so they beat jump armor pretty quickly. Sweetspot on the toe beats your armor pretty quickly too. She's nearly impossible to edgeguard, her teleport has hitboxes and she can act out of it quickly, and Din's Fire can carve her an easy path back to the stage. It's really difficult to combo anything into an upair kill because of her floatiness and her "Love jump" (neutral b out of hitstun) and grabs are just about useless on her.

@ TomBoComBo :"that matchup sucks gigantic testicles"

 

[Mumbo]

That turned out a lot bigger vertically than I was hoping, but oh well. I'll finish the explanations later and move people around if my opinions change. The things I write here I'll use as preliminaries for when we start making our matchup threads which, by the way @ TomBoComBo , we should start up soon. I think Fox/Falco/Wolf is a good place to begin (a separate thread for each character of course). I think we should post detailed threads gradually (1-3 a week?) rather than start them all now and add the details as we go along.

 

[didds]

Having played for long enough and after getting enough experience with most characters, here's my list. Advantage or Disadvantage means from the perspective of the Yoshi.

The Matchups:

Significant Advantage:


Advantage:


Marginal Advantage:


Even:


Marginal Disadvantage:


Disadvantage:


Significant Disadvantage:


Explanations:
Fox:

Spoiler

If the fox is better than you he can outspace you and win, but if each player is of about equal skill level, and certainly if the Yoshi player is better, I believe Yoshi is a strong counter to Fox. Fox is a light fast faller, which is excellent for Yoshi's combos. All Yoshi needs is one grab to obliterate Fox's stock with regrabs, uptilts, upsmashes, and upairs to combo and nairs and downsmashes to kill or set up for an edgeguard. Yoshi can Nair out of upthrow->upair til about 50%, and jump out of it at higher percents. Jump armor in general can ruin Fox's approaches. If you've practiced your edgeguards, downtilt, downsmash, and rising nair destroy Fox's linear recoveries for an easy kill.

Ice Climbers:

Spoiler

I've played against the Ice Climbers once and 4 stocked them. They player using them wasn't exactly the best but I still noticed that they had trouble getting anything going. Egglay separates them, Downsmash destroys them, down tilt is good too. I don't have much experience with them so I am also bandwagoning off of what other people have said.

Olimar:

Spoiler

I've never once dropped a game to an Olimar. I have a friend who is significantly better than me who plays Olimar, and he beats other players in my region who are a lot better than me, but I have absolutely no trouble beating his Olimar. Olimar is just not a very good character overall, and it shows in this matchup. Downsmash hurts and his recovery is pretty risk free to edgeguard, in addition to not working in the first place. He's pretty good combo weight but he can't really combo Yoshi. Grabs are really good on Olimar.

Wolf:

Spoiler

Just a Fox that does different stuff. Edgeguarding and comboing him are the same as Fox and he doesn't really have any extra tools against Yoshi Offensively like Falco does.

Captain Falcon:

Spoiler

EZ juggles and easy edgeguards (downtilt, downsmash). Falcon can't combo you that easily unless you burn your jump and he has a hard time edgeguarding you.

DK:
Ike:
Marth:
Sheik:
Squirtle:
Bowser:
Falco:

Spoiler

Like Fox and Wolf, but lasers are a significant problem. He can shield pressure you a lot harder than the other two and getting hit by Falco leads to a lot more than from Fox or Wolf. Pillars are devastating. He's still easy to juggle and even easier to edgeguard than the other two though. He's difficult to grab because he can just laser you and your grabs are pretty slow and he can edgeguard you with shines and back airs a lot more effectively than the other two. Eggroll is hard to use in this matchup.

Mr. Game and Watch:
King Dedede:
Lucario:
Lucas:
Meta Knight:
Pikachu:

Spoiler

Very little experience so I made a rough, safe guesstimate.

Charizard:
Diddy Kong:
Ivysaur:
Jigglypuff:
Mewtwo:
Ness:
Wario:
Yoshi:

Spoiler

Mirror

Ganondorf:

Spoiler

Each Character has free edgeguards on the other. Ganondorf can take your jump super fast and there's not a whole lot you can do once he has. He hits you hard and far giving him plenty of time to set up for edgeguards. His forward tilt and forward stuff Yoshi's approaches pretty well. You can combo him decently well but if you mess up and he hits you that could mean your stock right then and there.

Mario:
Pit:
R.O.B.:
Roy:
Samus:
Snake:
Sonic:
Toon Link:

Spoiler

Really easy to combo and kill but he can snag your jump early with fsmash, downair, and up b. A platform camping Toon Link is especially hard to deal with because he is fast and has great mobility. Yoshi doesn't have the best tools to deal with projectiles.

Kirby:
Link:
Luigi:
Peach:
Zelda:

Spoiler

This matchup has been scientifically proven to be 99-1 in Zelda's favor. All of Zelda's disjoints are extremely difficult to work around. Her moves have high base knockback and are multihit so they beat jump armor pretty quickly. Sweetspot on the toe beats your armor pretty quickly too. She's nearly impossible to edgeguard, her teleport has hitboxes and she can act out of it quickly, and Din's Fire can carve her an easy path back to the stage. It's really difficult to combo anything into an upair kill because of her floatiness and her "Love jump" (neutral b out of hitstun) and grabs are just about useless on her.

Zero Suit Samus:

Spoiler

Her projectiles are hard to deal with. Her range and disjoints are hard to deal with. If you get stunned without a jump that's your stock. If you get caught in a nairplane with no jump, that's your stock. In fact, if you don't have your jump at any point in time, that's probably your stock. Backair and Forwardsmash both gimp your jump at ridiculously low percents (~50%). Getting grabbed hurts a lot. Not quite as bad as Zelda, but certainly a difficult matchup.

I agree with a lot, but disagree with a bit as well. I concur that Kirby sux to play against. He does well at covering all of Yoshi's recovery options and can wall Yoshi out very well. And when Yoshi does finally get in, he doesn't get much out of it.

I don't see Zero Suit Samus as that bad, more like even in my opinion. She has enough end lag on her moves that Yoshi can get in with aerial mobility paired with his double jump cancels.

I think we have the advantage on Wolf, but for Fox and Falco you may be overestimating our punish game and and underestimating their neutral game. I'd be more inclined to say Fox is around even or slight advantage and Falco is more like slight disadvantage to even. Any smart Fox or Falco will kill you on neutral and force your approach and if the Fox has platforms then he can camp Yoshi pretty well.

I'd say Sonic is about even. In my experience the entire matchup is about who wins the neutral game. First hit can lead to strong punishes for both characters.

I agree on Ganon and even believe that Jiggs could be disadvantageous for us, but there are no Jigglies out there so it's kind of irrelevant lol.

Maybe drop Ike to marginal advantage. I think we still have the MU on our side still, but Ike has some of the same tools as Ganon with better mobility and some faster options as well (like bair which wrecks Yoshi), and you had Ganon as disadvantageous.

Just my quick thoughts

Good start btw, glad to see this getting started

 

[Mumbo]

I agree with a lot, but disagree with a bit as well. I concur that Kirby sux to play against. He does well at covering all of Yoshi's recovery options and can wall Yoshi out very well. And when Yoshi does finally get in, he doesn't get much out of it.

I don't see Zero Suit Samus as that bad, more like even in my opinion. She has enough end lag on her moves that Yoshi can get in with aerial mobility paired with his double jump cancels.

I think we have the advantage on Wolf, but for Fox and Falco you may be overestimating our punish game and and underestimating their neutral game. I'd be more inclined to say Fox is around even or slight advantage and Falco is more like slight disadvantage to even. Any smart Fox or Falco will kill you on neutral and force your approach and if the Fox has platforms then he can camp Yoshi pretty well.

I'd say Sonic is about even. In my experience the entire matchup is about who wins the neutral game. First hit can lead to strong punishes for both characters.

I agree on Ganon and even believe that Jiggs could be disadvantageous for us, but there are no Jigglies out there so it's kind of irrelevant lol.

Maybe drop Ike to marginal advantage. I think we still have the MU on our side still, but Ike has some of the same tools as Ganon with better mobility and some faster options as well (like bair which wrecks Yoshi), and you had Ganon as disadvantageous.

Just my quick thoughts

Looking back, i agree my opinion on fox is a little extreme. Its just a matchup that i like playing and i have a lot of experience with, and i enjoy beating people better than me. As for falco, its certainly a hard matchup, but i think yoshi still has the edge. You can lose the neutral really bad and still win because you are hard to kill and falco is not.

You absolutely can get in on ZSS, but zss just beats you in every respect, from zoning to edgegaurding to neutral game to punish game to recovery. It might not be as bad as i say, but i still think its yoshis second worse matchup.

Sonic might be even, i just totally dont understand that matchup. Hes too fast, and i get hit by spindash every time. His sheild pressure is solid and djc nair usually leads to me losing my jump and getting carried off stage. His upair also beats yoshi down b a lot more consistently than other chars, so sonic can get nice kills off the top without risking dying himself. If you have any advice for the matchup, id really appreciate it, because i do not understand it.

Youre right about jiggs being irrelevant.

I dont know why, but i have a lot more trouble getting hit by ganon than with ike. Ike has easy edgeguards, easier than ganon i say. Plus his attacks dont break armor as fast as ganon. I think its mostly that ganons neutral against yoshi is much better than ike's.

But good thoughts. Thats how stuff like this works, the right answer is probably a combination of both of our opinions.

 

[didds]

I've got a local Sonic player who is pretty good and I play him a lot.

key notes to keep in mind:
-always DI uthrow away, you'll be able to get a double jump out before he can follow up.
-I avoid using aerial down b in the mu since it's pretty easy for Sonic to simply avoid it and punish your landing, BUT grounded down B is amazing and the start up hit box will beat out Sonics spin dash approach. It also comes out quick so you can use it on reaction.
-Pivot, pivot, pivot grab. I can not emphasize enough how much this helps in the MU. Dthrow will lead to uairs at kill percent and fairs to possible jab reset at low percents. I've racked up as much as 60% off of one successful grab.
-Don't be afraid to just hold your shield when he is doing all of his crazy ball pressure ****. Sonic has a good grab game, but I find once they get into hitbox mode it's difficult for them to move back into grab mode.
-Sonic has **** for range and a random fsmash can work wonders. I've done it on shield and immediately done another one. The pull back avoids the retaliation and can land a wonderfully unexpected kill.
-When you get Sonic off stage, throw eggs. Sonic has a good recovery but it's predictable and some eggs can bring out the panic. Sonic has 3 recovery options essentially. Go high, drop low and sweetspot, or fake low and rise with an aerial. I like to grab ledge and get him used to that and eventually bait the high option. Dsmash can really destroy his landing.
-If you get a dthrow by the ledge, don't be afraid to go for the fair meteor. Sonic simply doesn't have much that will negate this and his best option is to DI away and avoid you.
-Dair is great, especially if you can call the blind approach.
-Egg roll usually beats Sonics options since he has small hitboxes and a tiny grab. I think it beats spin dash as well, but I have had trades so it's probably a momentum thing. Just don't get too predictable with it.

this is what i got for now
I still slightly disagree on zero suit, but I want to gather my thoughts on why I think so before posting about it.

 

[TomBoComBo]

That turned out a lot bigger vertically than I was hoping, but oh well. I'll finish the explanations later and move people around if my opinions change. The things I write here I'll use as preliminaries for when we start making our matchup threads which, by the way @ TomBoComBo , we should start up soon. I think Fox/Falco/Wolf is a good place to begin (a separate thread for each character of course). I think we should post detailed threads gradually (1-3 a week?) rather than start them all now and add the details as we go along.

So Starting Spacies? Sounds good. When do we wanna start?

 

[Mumbo]

So Starting Spacies? Sounds good. When do we wanna start?

We can start right now. The first post is going to be the hardest and is going to take the most time because that is how we are going to decide how to format the OP and what information to include. It's also going to be a test of community reaction/involvement as far as things like discussing who the matchup favors or which stages are good/bad. We mostly want to figure out what kind of information is most important so the post doesn't end up being a textbook with 90% filler.

I think we should have a section in the beginning to post videos of our matches with that particular character (I can not stress enough how helpful videos are and how disheartening it is that there are so few PM Yoshi videos out there.) prioritizing matches against notable players or players of high skill (watching a match against Mew2King is going to be a lot more helpful than watching a match against genericflaco69, and in general tournament matches are more helpful than friendlies.)

Then, a quick "overview" section where we list the strengths and weaknesses of each character in terms of raw stats and in relation to Yoshi. We could have a list of everyone's votes and quick-thought opinions on who the matchup is in favor of and by how much. Also, here we would list the little matchup-specific fun facts that players should really watch out for, like "Zero Suit Samus' bair breaks armor before 60%" or "Nair completely outprioritzes Wario's Side B."

After that, we'd have a more detailed analysis section broken into phases of the game such as Neutral Game, Comboing, Getting Comboed, Edgeguarding, Getting Edgeguarded, and so on.

Then, A stage counterpicking/banning guide, complete with a little section for disputes if some people think a particular stage is good for Yoshi in that matchup and some think it's bad. We could include little tidbits about why one stage is better or worse than another, like the differences between Smashville and FD. Talk about how the Smashville platform can be used to Yoshi's advantage or how it might be used against Yoshi so players know what to expect.

Then a little section on General Do's and Dont's as well as matchup tricks, hopefully complete with Gifs or videos. Things like how to Dash attack edgeguard Ike or how to drop from ledge rising nair a tether character. Point out common Yoshi Strategies that shouldn't be implemented in certain matchups, like Rising aerial edgeguarding Bowser is a bad idea.

And then maybe a tiny little section on how this matchup is different from the (insert semi clone, similar character) matchup. How is playing Falco different from Fox, Ness different from Lucas, Roy from Marth, Toon Link from Link.

If you have anything to add or think anything is redundant let me know.

 

[TomBoComBo]

We can start right now. The first post is going to be the hardest and is going to take the most time because that is how we are going to decide how to format the OP and what information to include. It's also going to be a test of community reaction/involvement as far as things like discussing who the matchup favors or which stages are good/bad. We mostly want to figure out what kind of information is most important so the post doesn't end up being a textbook with 90% filler.

I think we should have a section in the beginning to post videos of our matches with that particular character (I can not stress enough how helpful videos are and how disheartening it is that there are so few PM Yoshi videos out there.) prioritizing matches against notable players or players of high skill (watching a match against Mew2King is going to be a lot more helpful than watching a match against genericflaco69, and in general tournament matches are more helpful than friendlies.)

Then, a quick "overview" section where we list the strengths and weaknesses of each character in terms of raw stats and in relation to Yoshi. We could have a list of everyone's votes and quick-thought opinions on who the matchup is in favor of and by how much. Also, here we would list the little matchup-specific fun facts that players should really watch out for, like "Zero Suit Samus' bair breaks armor before 60%" or "Nair completely outprioritzes Wario's Side B."

After that, we'd have a more detailed analysis section broken into phases of the game such as Neutral Game, Comboing, Getting Comboed, Edgeguarding, Getting Edgeguarded, and so on.

Then, A stage counterpicking/banning guide, complete with a little section for disputes if some people think a particular stage is good for Yoshi in that matchup and some think it's bad. We could include little tidbits about why one stage is better or worse than another, like the differences between Smashville and FD. Talk about how the Smashville platform can be used to Yoshi's advantage or how it might be used against Yoshi so players know what to expect.

Then a little section on General Do's and Dont's as well as matchup tricks, hopefully complete with Gifs or videos. Things like how to Dash attack edgeguard Ike or how to drop from ledge rising nair a tether character. Point out common Yoshi Strategies that shouldn't be implemented in certain matchups, like Rising aerial edgeguarding Bowser is a bad idea.

And then maybe a tiny little section on how this matchup is different from the (insert semi clone, similar character) matchup. How is playing Falco different from Fox, Ness different from Lucas, Roy from Marth, Toon Link from Link.

If you have anything to add or think anything is redundant let me know.

all of it sounds good. I need to get video recorded if we want so much footage. I have an above average falco/fox player I go against regularly. I know the matchups so well that 1 grab can be death with enough thought and mindgames. The key is, falco and fox can combo you for days, but as long as you keep from getting spiked or early upsmashed, you'll live. And at this point they only have the option of smash kills, which you can see coming and also can punish really really hard. Grabs are so essential in these matchups I can't stress enough

 

[TomBoComBo]

@ Mumbo also with your matchup chart, there are a few issues/clashing opinions:

Zelda should be the only one at the Dark red ZSS can be moved up at least 1 slot maybe 2

Roy should be in marginal advantage

Link can be moved up 1 slot

Falcon and Ike can be moved up 1 slot

Marth can be moved down 1 slot

Just my opinions from my playing.
If you augment how you approach each character, how you kill them, and know how they kill you, the matchup becomes significantly easier.
I played against Zhime's Zelda in length and that matchup sucks gigantic testicles, but it's winnable

 

[TomBoComBo]

@ didds Fox and Falco matchups seem hard, but as I've said a few posts up^ if you know what they want to kill you with, you can avoid and punish. I'm to kidding when I say 1 grab can lead to a death for either of them, I'll try to post up footage but the 0 to death relies on nothing but the opponent's DI and their choice of where to roll.



PS sorry about the triple post

 

[Mumbo]

all of it sounds good. I need to get video recorded if we want so much footage. I have an above average falco/fox player I go against regularly. I know the matchups so well that 1 grab can be death with enough thought and mindgames. The key is, falco and fox can combo you for days, but as long as you keep from getting spiked or early upsmashed, you'll live. And at this point they only have the option of smash kills, which you can see coming and also can punish really really hard. Grabs are so essential in these matchups I can't stress enough

We don't need a ton of videos when we make the post. I was thinking it could be more of an archive for everyone's matches as we go along. Some people go to weekly tournaments, so they could post all their stream matches to the respective match up threads.

Zelda should be the only one at the Dark red ZSS can be moved up at least 1 slot maybe 2

Yeah that's what didds said. Maybe I just suck at that matchup.

Roy should be in marginal advantage

Marth can be moved down 1 slot

Roy and Marth should both be in marginal advantage? I seem to have a lot more trouble with Roy, mostly in that I can't edgeguard him where I can gimp Marth hardcore.

Falcon and Ike can be moved up 1 slot

Funny that you say that. didds thinks Ike should be moved down a slot. Read his initial rebuttle to my list if you haven't already. As for Falcon, I wouldn't disagree with moving him higher. I have a friend who is 10x better than me and plays spacies and falcon, so he plays those characters in PM, and I beat all his characters no problem.

 

[TomBoComBo]

@ Mumbo Roy is the perfect weight to be combo food, doesn't matter if you can't guard him he has a **** recovery and can just be ledge hogged. Marth in the right hands can have a bubble around him at all times (Liquid'Ken) If the marth is consistent with walling you out with Fairs there's no way in other than a neutral B.

Falcon has a **** techroll and can be destroyed on techchases. Plus rising Nair beats his UpB and you have 4 different ways to punish him for not sweetspotting the ledge.

I showed you why Ike is free, You don't need to hear it lol

 

[Mumbo]

@ TomBoComBo I started the thread here http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-vs-yoshi-matchup-thread.367859/#post-17568257. If you have anything to add or if you disagree with anything I wrote post a comment.

 

[Mumbo]

Does anyone have any quick tips on the samus matchup? I beat Cruz Control's Lucario game 1 (He's one of the top 5 players in SFL) but then he counterpicked me with his ****ty melee import Samus and I couldn't beat it games 2 and 3. I was pretty disappointed I lost the set.

 

[TomBoComBo]

@ Mumbo kill her high or get her off stage and punish her for tethering. Eggroll in the air (after rolling off a platform) eats projectiles, including missiles. Downthrow sends her a bit high, high enough that she can bomb or jump away. If she makes bombing a first response, you can DJ through it and upair after eating it with armor. If she makes jumping the first response, just jump after her and apply pressure (or get the kill). It's a really lame matchup but it's very doable if you're patient.

Also, you can just ask me for matchup stuff (might as well tag me)

 

[Mumbo]

@ Mumbo kill her high or get her off stage and punish her for tethering. Eggroll in the air (after rolling off a platform) eats projectiles, including missiles. Downthrow sends her a bit high, high enough that she can bomb or jump away. If she makes bombing a first response, you can DJ through it and upair after eating it with armor. If she makes jumping the first response, just jump after her and apply pressure (or get the kill). It's a really lame matchup but it's very doable if you're patient.

Also, you can just ask me for matchup stuff (might as well tag me)

Thanks

When you say aerial eggroll eats projectiles, does it clank or totally eat them? I tend to stay away from eggroll on the ground because at best it clanks and at worst i still get hit by missiles.

 

[TomBoComBo]

@ Mumbo
when you roll off a platform it will completely eat them. If you're on the ground and aren't at base damage, they'll clank. If the Samus does a standing straight missile, you can duck it. If they're doing platform canceled missiles, the best thing to do is close the gap before you've got a screen full of missiles zoning you out. First one can be on the ground or on a platform. if it's on the ground, then you can duck it and dash at her. Usually it will start with a homing canceled on the platform to a falling missile to the ground. In this case, you can full hop over them, or you can dash underneath the homing, shorthop eggroll over the second missile and punish the landing. Another option is to eat the first with eggroll rolling off another platform (This works with like 95% of other projectiles too) and punish there. Lastly, you can DJC wavedash to eat them bydoing DJC and wavedashing out of it to eat the missiles with armor.

 

[Jinjo64]

I think Yoshi vs Kirby is at least an even matchup, because while it's easy for Yoshi to land hits on Kirby, Kirby can easily combo Yoshi out of successful hits. It feels like comboing a Samus. In the Kirby threads the only justification for LG I've seen is someone saying that DJ armour makes it difficult to kill Yoshi.

Pros:

• Nair is easy to land imo
• Dthrow links into u-air easily
• Kirby's light weight makes ceiling KO's good

Cons:

• Difficult to continue comboing him after u-air
• Kirby's u-tilt combos into itself a few times at early %
• Kirby's b-air starts beating out DJ armour at 73% which with Kirby's offstage game makes it easy to get edgeguarded

As a Kirby main. Yoshi is an extremely easy match up. Just swallow and Bair at the right times. Instant 20-50% kills.

 

[didds]

I hate the Kirby MU, it's like the only match that I'll switch off of Yoshi for.

 

[TensenROB]

My Bowser friend picked up Kirby because of how good he is vs Yoshi. It's painful!

 

[TomBoComBo]

Kirby requires a new mindset, play close to center stage and focus on killing off the top. If the kirby like to upB horizontally, he's easy to edge guard if you Nair him before the ending animation and stay above or even with him. Kirby also can't really get away from Dthrow Upair unless he DIs away (then you fair or weak nair him for free), and you can also kill him early like G&W with Dthrow to grounded downB. Kirby's dash attack can be grabbed (pivot is best), can be clanked with a jab, can be trumped by the hitbox from grounded downB, or you can shorthop Dair over where the animation ends. Punishing with Dair makes the MU much easier and lets you kill faster. The key is to play safer and stay away from the ledge so that Kirby can't kill you the lame way.

 

[Jinjo64]

TomBoComBo knows where its at. Also he has a jump loss formula when he uses rock and UpB. Rock is -1 puff jump and Up B is -3. So when you see Kirby jump some and Cutter dash. Which means his only option is UpB or airdodging. Keep Nairing to keep him away...or even Fair him if you are feeling fancy. Learn the moves that beat his swallow and let him approach you. ALSO don't let him get the stock lead. Some Kirby players who are not as kind as I am will camp the ledge for the swallowcide. BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT TIP OF THEM ALL IS........don't let him steal your power!!!! You won't know which one is which and you'll end up SDing wondering which Yoshi you are.

 

[Mumbo]

http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/projectm/

vote

The people who have already voted are not smart. And please, only vote on matchups you know.

 

[TomBoComBo]

http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/projectm/

vote

The people who have already voted are not smart. And please, only vote on matchups you know.

won't do much, but I did

 

[Mumbo]

won't do much, but I did

My votes moved him from 38 to 34, yours and whoever else's have moved him up to 27. At least hes closer to 15-20 where he belongs.

 

[Mumbo]

Here's my updated opinion after the release of 3.5 and as I've gotten better and I've gotten to play better players
Significant Advantage:


Advantage:


Marginal Advantage:


Even:


Marginal Disadvantage:


Disadvantage:


Significant Disadvantage:


edit: looking back upon this, I realize that I think Yoshi is a mid tier character right now

 

[Nikes]

Haven't touched this game in a decade and need to actually learn some matchups...I take it Wolf and Roy are good for us because our ability to gimp them super early?
Also, Marth and Falco MU advice? Without looking right now (apologies) are there there any threads or writeups for these MUs?

 

[qpMONKEYMIKEqp]

Sorry if this has been touched on. but in my local scene i do well against most matchups but at last tourney i got knocked out by two separate ness players. which is the matchup i have never played before.

Any things suggestions will help. i tried to look up yoshi vs ness vids with no luck. Ness is so quick with his djc fairs and pk fire setups.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Haven't touched this game in a decade and need to actually learn some matchups...I take it Wolf and Roy are good for us because our ability to gimp them super early?
Also, Marth and Falco MU advice? Without looking right now (apologies) are there there any threads or writeups for these MUs?

Falco is an uphill battle thanks to lasers, but if you can outmaneuver, grab combos into techchase kills and you can kill him offstafe with rising Nair. Marth can't combo you in the air, just respect the tipper range and combo him like a slightly floaty roy

 

[TomBoComBo]

Sorry if this has been touched on. but in my local scene i do well against most matchups but at last tourney i got knocked out by two separate ness players. which is the matchup i have never played before.

Any things suggestions will help. i tried to look up yoshi vs ness vids with no luck. Ness is so quick with his djc fairs and pk fire setups.

Ness is HARD, because his pressure is so air tight and frame tight. I play against StereoKidd every tournament and since grab parry is not in 3.6b the MU only got harder. You have to be above him as much as you can, he has no tools to punish you being above him unless your spacing is too far (neutralB upB) or too close (Uair above, Fair horizontal). if you're almost anywhere below him, you're going to get comboed or grabbed.

 

[qpMONKEYMIKEqp]

Ness is HARD, because his pressure is so air tight and frame tight. I play against StereoKidd every tournament and since grab parry is not in 3.6b the MU only got harder. You have to be above him as much as you can, he has no tools to punish you being above him unless your spacing is too far (neutralB upB) or too close (Uair above, Fair horizontal). if you're almost anywhere below him, you're going to get comboed or grabbed.

Thanks again TomBo! I have been focusing on melee at the moment and plan on getting yoshi back to the lab soon!

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

How do you guys feel about Yoshi's current spread in the Community MU Chart? And what how would you guys rate the missing MU spots?