TomBoComBo
Smash Ace
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- Jan 31, 2014
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- 544
I've found a mapping that lets me play 70% of my real game. It helps me nail down concepts. It's also fun to whoop someone and then tell them that you're on kayboard.
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[Project M] Yoshi Matchup Thread
- Thread starter Pickledpotatoes
- Start date
Nikes
Smash Lord
I should setup netplay sometime actually.
Also, we might be doing a PM stream in a bit if anyones interested: http://www.twitch.tv/kaizmo (maybe in half an hour, gotta wait for someone to deliver the TVs first lol)
Edit: make that 10 mins
Also, we might be doing a PM stream in a bit if anyones interested: http://www.twitch.tv/kaizmo (maybe in half an hour, gotta wait for someone to deliver the TVs first lol)
Edit: make that 10 mins
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Nikes
Smash Lord
Ohai Hughie, I never see you around here o:
Yeah, I should probably post here a bit more often because I've actually started doing well. I beat Nido in bracket a month ago too ahaha
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TomBoComBo
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2014
- Messages
- 544
You cc and buffer shield, shield the shine and roll away. Then you jump OoS for a Nair because the fox will follow you with a shorthop Nair and you'll win if you already have yours out. On a different reaction, you can cc and buffer a sidestep to shield then OoS Nair without the roll. Determine whether the fox is a player that will go for grabs or not (if you grab parry him it will deter him).
Fox is 0-to-deathable if you can get 2 reads on rolls, all you need to do is grab him the first time. If he lets you go to FD, you will have a significant advantage.
TomBoComBo
Smash Ace
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- Jan 31, 2014
- Messages
- 544
They are both tolerable imo
Samus, play a creative aerial game, Samus is hard to follow up on, and missiles hurt, but if you can change up how you move in the air to accommodate that, you'll win. Also, killing samus is actually relatively easy. If you can Nair her off the stage, most Samuses will recover low and try a tether. Yoshi has a fantastic option in dealing with tethers called the Rising N-air. You just run off stage, get in-between Samus and the ledge (or go all the way out on her while she bomb jumps) then Hold Jump and N-air at the same time. You may have to do it more than once depending on percentage, but it's a really good way to kill Samus. With that, if she decides to Up-B recover, you get carried back to the stage. (don't go below her because the beginning hitbox of Up-B is odd and may only hit you once. aka: death)
Snake is an interesting matchup. It helps me that I have snake as a secondary. You need to keep track of where his mines are and how many tranq darts he has. Tranqs will beat out eggroll ever time, so be wary of that early in a stock. You can DJC out of any grab chain that he might try, therein cutting his ways to sticky you. If they're the type of snake to Forward-throw you or Back-throw you and go all in for a spike, you just jump away from the stage after being thrown and eggroll back to ledge/stage and edge-guard since snake will be recovering from his attempt. Grab Parries are very good vs everyone, and on a snake is really good as well. First 6 frames of shield, you are impervious to grabs (of any kind ex: command grabs). Not only does it allow you an OoS N-air, but a possible shield grab as well. On top of that, if you can get 2 or more of them off, the opponent will start to think grabs are unsafe and will either lighten up on grabs or stop grabbing all together. This effectively kills 1/3 of Snake's serve-ups and aggression. He'll start wasting his tranq darts in desperation and when he's shot 3, you can eggroll him all day long.
Hope this helped!
Dyl9
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2012
- Messages
- 52
One thing that I noticed in the Snake match up in my only game I have played against him, is that c4 breaks double jump amour fairly early. This is just theory crafting but if you expect your double jump to be broken while recovering, it may be a good idea to break the amour so you go higher when he explodes the c4.
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TomBoComBo
Smash Ace
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- Jan 31, 2014
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- 544
If you see him start the animation for c4, you can eggroll. Then you'll be knocked up and will be able to recover
Mumbo
Smash Journeyman
What can I do with grabs against heavies? It seems like every time I try to follow up off of a down throw they jump out of it. Should I not be going for grabs on heavies or am I just too slow?
TomBoComBo
Smash Ace
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- Jan 31, 2014
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Heavies? like Falco and Fox and Bowser and DK?
Itsnotmyfault
Smash Journeyman
It depends what you mean by heavies. If it's Falco, Fox, and Wolf type characters you're talking about you're better off using up throw. At early percents they might be able to tech roll on down throw, and if not, chances are you're only going to get one up tilt before they di to the ground. Up throw allows you to catch them higher with up tilt so that you can easily follow it up with another/ anything else. At higher percents you can switch to down throw, but you should still be able to follow up with up throw.
Mumbo
Smash Journeyman
Sorry, I mean DK, Bowser, DDD, and Charizard mostly. I have no trouble with spacies or other fast fallers like MK or Falcon.
TomBoComBo
Smash Ace
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Well heavies, you get a free upsmash after a Downthrow until they're at like 110%, then you can just Fair them and tech-chase.
Yoshi has a chain grab on DK at early percents, but you have to be fast. You can either freely follow him with a running grab if he DI's away, or if he fails to DI, you can chose the Upsmash option, or you can dash back and pivot grab him for a chain grab. It may seem really unnecessary, but it's more damage, it's dominating mind games, and it's SO~ stylish.
On Bowser and DDD, if you're just asking Dthrow followups, upsmash is free until 70~%. then you can play smart whether to fair, nair or uair.
Charizard is tricky because he's floaty and a heavy at the same time, so he can DI very easliy. in this case, you can follow downthrow with an uptilt or an upsmash until 30-40% then you have to be creative following with a Uair, a dash->nair, or a shorthop egglay. Going for a Fair is unsafe because charizard's Fair comes out too fast. If you can space it really well, you can still get a Fair off, but you have to linger right outside of the range of Charizard's claw (much like you can with Mewtwo's Fair) but at the same time you have to be close enough to tip him with your Fair. The spacing has to be flawless so it's far safer and easier to go for other options.
In all cases, you have to watch their DI and act accordingly. Nair comes out on like frame 4, so it's super safe when you know you can get it out before they can get anything out. It may not kill, but damage is always good since throws have set knockback and Yoshi's kill setups are only slightly limited when damage is in the higher percents.
Anything else you need some advice on? Anything I said not so clear? I hope this helped!
Yoshi has a chain grab on DK at early percents, but you have to be fast. You can either freely follow him with a running grab if he DI's away, or if he fails to DI, you can chose the Upsmash option, or you can dash back and pivot grab him for a chain grab. It may seem really unnecessary, but it's more damage, it's dominating mind games, and it's SO~ stylish.
On Bowser and DDD, if you're just asking Dthrow followups, upsmash is free until 70~%. then you can play smart whether to fair, nair or uair.
Charizard is tricky because he's floaty and a heavy at the same time, so he can DI very easliy. in this case, you can follow downthrow with an uptilt or an upsmash until 30-40% then you have to be creative following with a Uair, a dash->nair, or a shorthop egglay. Going for a Fair is unsafe because charizard's Fair comes out too fast. If you can space it really well, you can still get a Fair off, but you have to linger right outside of the range of Charizard's claw (much like you can with Mewtwo's Fair) but at the same time you have to be close enough to tip him with your Fair. The spacing has to be flawless so it's far safer and easier to go for other options.
In all cases, you have to watch their DI and act accordingly. Nair comes out on like frame 4, so it's super safe when you know you can get it out before they can get anything out. It may not kill, but damage is always good since throws have set knockback and Yoshi's kill setups are only slightly limited when damage is in the higher percents.
Anything else you need some advice on? Anything I said not so clear? I hope this helped!
Mumbo
Smash Journeyman
Yes, actually, very helpful, thanks. I play at Versus and there are a couple of really good players who use Charizard and DK, and ofc Nick Riddle plays Bowser. I saw somewhere else, probably in this thread, someone talking about downthrow > nair. How do you jump into the nair? full hop nair, full hop DJC nair, rising nair, jump immediate double jump nair? I haven't yet found a consistent method to land nair after downthrow on a heavy.
Thanks again.
TomBoComBo
Smash Ace
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- Jan 31, 2014
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- 544
Depends on matchup, percent, percentage of success you personally have with whatever method, and (most importantly) your opponent's mentality. The simplest thing to do on most MUs is to just dash fullhop nair. But if your opponent has excellent DI and/or they're playing a floaty, you can try other methods. Remember that every time you do anything to your opponent, learn to watch what they do and how they adapt or react. As an example: Dthrow. The first few times, they may not know how to DI, so the punish is easy. Then they begin to learn how to DI it. Then you bring out pummeling or changing it to an Uthrow for uair kill. What I love doing is, irl I'll grab them at higher percents and pummel them. And I'll continue to pummel them until they start mashing to get out. When they start mashing, I throw them. Since they focused on mashing instead of DI-ing, thier Di will be bad. Free kill.
Create a bag of tricks and bring little things out as the match/matches progress. When you catch people unawares once, they get cautious. Twice, they get confused. Any more, they start to get discouraged. The key with Yoshi is to be all in as long as you can so you overwhelm them and make them second guess themselves. That's how I play, I bombard them with mental play and baits and reads and I never let up. Not many people can stay at the same level of focus as that for very long. Even Liquid'Ken had trouble keeping any sort of control.
But to answer specifically your question (lol) it's something that depends on many factors and you have to be creative and find what works for you.
Dr. Robotnik
Smash Journeyman
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- Jun 5, 2007
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- 462
Take snake to small stages and pressure the living hell out of him. In that match up yoshi will win trades and get easy set ups to combos. Samus i feel is even, no real firm follow up. If shes above you, do low eggs to cover your approach and either force her to shield them and get a free d-air or punish her attempt to dodge. Shes big and slow in the air making her an easy target. Be very patient, and i find squeezing in between missiles with a djc Nuatral-b and that cover the release with an egg throw a good way to rack up some damage on her.
fox, falco, wolf, falcon and a few other extreme heavies at low percents have limited, but effective options from d-throw and up throw. Almost all of them will get hit with d-throw to d-smash, which forcing them off the stage (like falco or falcon) can be a quick easy gimp by following up with a simple d-tilt. hitting falco with a d-tilt while hes off stage is an insta kill. You can also follow u-throw with tilts right from 0 and up-smash at a little higher or even go for a pivot re-grab and finish with up-smash/dsmash. timing is different for each character but all of them are easy enough to set up expect maybe wolf.
Dr. Robotnik
Smash Journeyman
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Well, I beat chip in winners and than lost in losers, got third at our huge monthly, chip getting second and bladewise getting first. went 1-3 against bladewise and was able to get him off diddy. (also got first seed in my pool)
Here is the stream. http://www.twitch.tv/breadnbuttergames/b/558882969
My matches start at 2:59:00 against chip, and than i play 2 more people after this, one is the winner of the last monthly, and the other being bladewise. Btw, im 1 of 2 people (zerxion, the last months winner being the other) to beat chip in PM from our region.
On a side note, I need help against Metaknight. And be very specific.
Edit: This is my set against Chip : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM7hsZlByUs
Set against Zerxion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1qvfHLRbCs
Set against Bladewise : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls4UoS1cnoo
Here is the stream. http://www.twitch.tv/breadnbuttergames/b/558882969
My matches start at 2:59:00 against chip, and than i play 2 more people after this, one is the winner of the last monthly, and the other being bladewise. Btw, im 1 of 2 people (zerxion, the last months winner being the other) to beat chip in PM from our region.
On a side note, I need help against Metaknight. And be very specific.
Edit: This is my set against Chip : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM7hsZlByUs
Set against Zerxion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1qvfHLRbCs
Set against Bladewise : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls4UoS1cnoo
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Dr. Robotnik
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2007
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- 462
Side note, I get a 0-death on bladewise. :O
Mumbo
Smash Journeyman
Does holding shield after a roll reactivate the parry frames at the end of the roll when you go into shield? I've seen people whiff grabs a bunch after my rolls and I'm not sure if it's because of the roll or the parry frames.
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TomBoComBo
Smash Ace
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- Jan 31, 2014
- Messages
- 544
No, the parry frames have a separate animation that isn't there when you keep holding shield after a roll. I tested it anyway and there's no parry frames there. Shielding out of spotdodge will make you parry though.@TensenROB ^^^^ Investigate Please <3
There's some bizarre behaviour if you're holding shield after the roll ends and let go shortly after, it makes Yoshi stay in shield for like 36 frames during which you can do OOS stuff like jump/roll/spotdodge even if you aren't holding the trigger down (Yoshi's rolls are 34 and 37 frames long too so this may be a bug related to it). Again this is just a regular shield, and it keeps getting darker/closer to shieldbreak during this. This is exclusive to Yoshi and didn't exist in Brawl or Melee so it's definitely a bug!
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Nikes
Smash Lord
Armadas in your pool?.-. Wow, tough break..unfortunately I've got no tips due to lack of MU experience.
Wish I was gonna make it to SS and get to play you actually, that would've been cool. Anyways good luck and have fun!
Mumbo
Smash Journeyman
What do you guys do against a Toon Link camping platforms with bombs and boomerangs? I typically like to shark the platforms with up airs and go for huge punishes off of those but I feel like it's not really effective most of the time.
TomBoComBo
Smash Ace
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long range eggs can play some role. sharking like that works too. Neutral B or a wavebounce neutral B will help close the gap. Or you can time it so that your Fair or Nair eats his boomerang and follow through to him (this is how I beat marios fireballs)
Damp
Smash Apprentice
HELP ME WITH DIDDY PLEASE HE'S ****ING STUPID OP WHAT DO
Damp
Smash Apprentice
I pick up his nanners as often as I can when it's safe. It's just ridiculous how many option he has to clank with eggroll and combo to take away DJ. I feel like I should do more single hop approaches, but it's tough changing my style for just one matchup.
That's how it has to be. In order to handle all matchups, you'll need to be able to play multiple styles to conquer whatever is thrown at you. I may not have played vs Diddy often, but being able to pressure and set up traps with nanners is extremely important in being able to fight back in the matchup. Fighting vs Diddy alone is super easy, but fighting with nanners changes everything. You have to be as efficient (or close) as Diddy is with nanners to win. recognizing setups, traps, and what they change in terms of his options vs one that doesn't have a nanner. Yoshi definitely has tools now since he's able to glide toss, DJC item toss, and other tricks to create as much pressure as Diddy does.
If you can get recordings, that'll easily help me explain what is causing you issues.
If you can get recordings, that'll easily help me explain what is causing you issues.
TomBoComBo
Smash Ace
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- Jan 31, 2014
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You can chain grab Diddy with downthrow no matter which way he DI's. If he DI's away, you can dash grab him, if He doesn't DI, you can upsmash for free or dash back and pivot grab him for the chain. Eggroll goes right over nanners and you can crouch cancel almost all of what Diddy can do after a clank. If he's trying to Fsmash you, you can take the first hit at and highmedium to low percents and then shield the second hit, free punish. Nair beats rocketjump if you can read his trajectory, Nair beats Side B hop if you're above him any distance. My philosophy with any matchup is everyone essentially has the same basic options. If you can reduce the thought process to those basic options, then cover the majority of them, you'll overwhelm any opponent with a weaker mindgame than you. Diddy is at a magic weight that you can Dthrow into upsmash at ANY percent,(and chain grab at ANY percent) use that.
Mumbo
Smash Journeyman
Do you have any gifs or videos of chaingrabs on diddy? or the upthrow chaingrab on spacies? or any other chaingrab? I understand your explanation but I haven't been able to pull them off. Also, can you pivot grab before you reach full dash speed? usually when I try to pivot grab after dashing a short distance it comes out as a dash grab.
TomBoComBo
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2014
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- 544
I've done it many many times, I think there may be a timing thing where eggroll is at a certain damage value. But trust me, You can eggroll over bananas
TomBoComBo
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2014
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I HAD video evidence but it's all gone. In the future I will rerecord the streams I'm on so that they don't get lost when people delete their past broadcasts
Yoshi has a Chain grab on the following:
Diddy Kong: DI away ->Dash Grab No DI/Back DI ->Dash back Pivot grab
(any realistic %)(Downthrow)
Donkey Kong: Same as Diddy
(until like 50%~)(Downthrow) after then only DI away can be grabbed
Fox Wolf: (Upthrow) Follow DI (I don't have the timing for it yet myself)
(until 60%~) You can, after like 10%~, do uptilt after a upthrow and then regrab
Link: DI away -> dash grab
(until 30%~)(Downthrow) If he chooses to DI behind/noDI it's a free upsmash until 60%~ then a free upair
DeDeDe: Similar to Diddy Kong after like 15%~ then stops after 60%~
(Downthrow)
Roy: Need to play around with it a bit, but it may act the same as Link but for longer and starting after like 10%~ (Downthrow)(possibly upthrow though unlikely)
Bower: (Downthrow) Starts at 10%~ can follow forward DI with Dash grab. Lasts until like 60%~. I need more time in the lab with this one since I don't think about chaingrabs in this matchup usually
Lucas: Possible, I'm not sure what the timing is, but it's probably a low% chaingrab because He can DI Far away and stay too far off the ground via magnet (Downthrow)
Falco: Possible, at med-high percents since he's got a faster fall speed than fox and almost no Horizontal DI ability
(Upthrow)
I Will make video evidence of each of these, or you guys can test it out. This is all from what I've experienced and/or what I think will work or what other Yoshis have said
TomBoComBo
Smash Ace
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Oh and you can Chain Grab Lucario in the same manner as you would diddy, but the timing is slightly different and he can escape with an airdodge as his % goes up
Late reply, but whatev.
MetaKnight is a tough match up, but I think it's fairly even in the end. Throw out a lot of pivot grab for rush down heavy metaknights and maximize punishes. I'm fairly certain that fair is guaranteed off of Downthrow. You can follow up with a jab reset to combo extender at low percents, or follow up the jab reset with a charged downsmash, which really messes with MK.
You'll need to avoid shielding too much in the mu, and if you are caught, I'd suggest nair out of shield. MK's grab can just wreck pretty much anyone, especially Yoshi due to his weight.
If they DD camp a lot, you could throw out neutral B and egg roll as fast intruding approaches. Just be sure to mix up the egg roll (dont even approach sometimes with it, hop back with it and just pop out.) We all know how hard we can get punished for being predictable with egg roll.
Top platform is your best friend. Run off > DJ in the other direction into fast fall Dair moves very fast and can catch a lot of people off guard. It also leads into just about anything. Egg roll will pretty much always set up for a killing uair at high percents, same with down throw.
I find the hardest part of the MU is in the recovery, MK is fast enough to cover the high option and still drop down to cover the low option if you go for an air dodge to fast fall, not to mention that Bair can break our armor at fairly low percents. If you don't know how to Edge Cancel Eggs, learn it, it's very valuable in the MU. Yoshis get up options are pretty slow and MK can pretty much react to them all.
Edge Guarding is easier. be ready to downsmash if they pop above the ledge too much. I always steal the ledge with my double jump when they get close and then drop > rising nair to throw them off.
My most reliable kill options are downsmash, dthrow or egg roll to uair, and off stage nair gimps. I would not go for nairs off stage unless I had ledge invincibility though, MK is just too potent off stage still.
Sorry if I was a little broad, if there is a certain aspect of the MU you want more feedback on, I'll be happy to say what I know. Our number 1 guy, Chexr, in MN plays MK. Last time we played the Yoshi:MK matchup it went down to last stock, last hit, only for me to SD doing the ECE's... :/
Mumbo
Smash Journeyman
Okay, so, floaties. How the heck do I land a kill move on Luigi, Zelda, or Peach? Hopefully a related question, what can I do if I land a grab on one of the 3 aforementioned floaties at 100-150%? It seems every time I try to downthrow/upthrow into upair, they jump out, nair out, or zelda uses her get out of uair free neutral b.