Zodiac
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2005
- Messages
- 3,557
Alright so I just spent the last seven hours playing this bloody game and heres what I found out. In general every single character is broken as hell, mind you they are broken in the way that fox or falco is broken in melee. So its a good kind of broken, they have all been elevated to a point that they can **** each other and not just one **** the other. Not to say there are not bad match ups. Ganon vs fox is still painful but ganondorf has a lot more options now, he is faster and is tilts are better against fox.
Video's in second post
I'll do a brief overview of the match ups that I came across with character I spent a significant amount of time playing.
Mario
Combos -
All of mario's melee combo's are there, his recovery is better and the replacment of his fair with Doc's makes his combo's more deadly. They start off the same but end up differently depending on the situation. Dsmash is even more amazing and a much better kill move this time around, his Ftilt is also a viable GTFO move. Mario can insta grab the ledge if he falls off and capes towards the stage. It seems others character can do this with reverse b moves as well.
Match ups
Ganondorf - 55/45
While ganondorf can outrange mario the fact that mario is so much faster means that after one hit it should lead to a good 40% or so, and if played correctly you can get ganon off the stage. And while his recovery isn't as bad as it is in melee its still pretty easy bair guard him.
Marth - 40/60
this is just as bad as it was in melee, Marth still ***** him up and down the stage and left to right.
Sonic 55/45
Sonic is fast as a speeding bullet but his priority isn't there, mario can only combo him a little because sonic is actually pretty floaty despite how fast he is, and mario's usmash ***** whatever sonic comes down with from the air. The only real threat here is sonic's dsmash, its his best tool against mario (who's spacing isn't so good) As long as mario out space's/out prioritizes sonic then this match is won.
Fox 40/60
Its more or less the same. Further research will need to be done, I didn't check out this match up in to much detail. Same with Falco.
Lucas 45/55
Lucas is a beast...Lucas IS A BEAST. His pressure is comparable to fox and Falco and his spacing is better then the majority of Mario's moves AND he's fast as hell during his pressure. This is a fast paced match that will have mario spacing like crazy with bairs and wave dash's. But half of Lucas's pressure game rely's on landing a grab, cause thats where it starts, getting around that and comboing from there is where it starts to hurt mario. The only reason this match up isnt worse is because mario can combo him back, but lucas DOES out space mario, even by just a little
Stages -
Lucas does well on medium size stages so avoid those, (Fod, Ys, Battlefield is meh) But on the Metal Cavern from smash64 is pretty effective against him because of the numerous slopes (they mess up his grabs) same goes for the new hyrule stage, temple: m. You may also want to consider taking him to silph co. that is if you want to camp the hell out of him, but im guessing most of us didnt get this game to camp. Bigger stages can be both bad and good, if you have better projectiles, good. if not...bad.
Good-
Dreamland64
Metal Cavern
Temple:M
Silph Co.
Bad-
Yoshi's Story
Fountain of Dreams
Rumble Falls
SSE:Jungle
Smashville
Link
Link is slightly better, maybe a lot better, he's a unique character so I'm still exploring what he can do. But his combo's this time around are a lot more obvious, rang combo's in particular are reminiscent of smash64. His up-b is more beastly and its hitbox seems to come out faster. You can still up-b ledge hog but its a little floatier so the timing is different. His nair is even MORE amazing than in melee (If thats even possible!) His aeiral moves in general are faster and his l-canceled dair comes out at about the speed of young links, as does his f-tilt...My god..the ftilt! Its your general GTFO move. There are several characters that can be D-throw > Ftilted at any given moment and put far enough away from you that they cant retaliate! The uptilt and Usmash have both received more range and if im not mistaken the utitlt has more power. Skraaaa out of shield is even better of a pressure killer. but it still wont work against a frame perfect fox or falco. His wave dash timing is really odd though. (Vids Soon) One more thing, his hookshot (Clawshot) is shorter, I mean his up b is better but its just as punishable as it was in melee, so having the clawshot shorter really makes his recovery worse overall. but not by THAT much.
Match ups
Ganondorf - 45/55
Very much the same, the rule of thumb still applies here...don't go near ganondorf, and he can still chaingrab link. But link has a lot of new stuff to **** ganon with as well. I'm calling this slight ganon for the moment, still dont know everything about this match up.
Marth - 50/50
Its the same as melee, except now that link is better the match up is more viable. Again, dont have all that much experience with this match up.
Falco - 45/55
This is a little better, link can usmash falco oos or Skrrraaaa oos to break combo's, not to mention skraaa kills at lower percents now so it can be more dangerous for falco to attack. Falco (and most characters) tech roll slower now so link can tech chase via down throw a lot easier and D-throw tech chase into Skraaa or even another grab whenever he wants. He also has all his old tricks against falco intact. But the insane amount of pressure falco still has over him is puts this match in falco's advantage.
Fox - 45/55
The match up is more or less the same as it was in melee, excpet for the changes mentioned above. the match up is very similar, you will be getting grabbed to uair more in this one though.. and one more very interesting bit is link will now tumble from the shine. meaning he can be thunders combo'd now, but in general shine is weaker against him. And as always he has the same tricks he did before.
Lucas - 55/45
I got some time with this match up but not as much as I would have liked.. in a nut shell, link beats lucas, the key to beating this little bugger is good spacing and link has plenty of that, but his newer tricks run circles around this little guy. Link can do this from very low %.
Jab>Jab>Grab>Dthrow>Turn around> Jab>Jab>Grab>Dthrow>Turn around>Ftilt
Not to mention at ANY given time in the match link can [Jab>Jab>Grab>Dthrow>Ftilt] And remember ftilt is good now so at higher percents this will kill lucas without fail.
And the first combo mentioned can be elongated because lucas will almost always spotdodge, wait for it, regrab and then do whatever. you dont even have to turn around and jab rest him, you can utilt>bair him if you want. And even though lucas has some good projectiles link's are better, his arrows, bomb and particularly rang, will mess lucas up. The only reason this isnt 60/40 is because of how well lucas can pressure a shield. And even though link as gotten better his shield is still a prime target for rush down characters.
Falcon - 45/55
This is more or less the same thing as in melee, but link has more ways to grab falcon now so link can get in more combo's, the only problem is falcons nair has been buffed so your projectiles are less useful. But other than that its the same.
Ganondorf
Again not all that much time with ganondorf but I can tell you right now he is far more viable then his melee AND brawl counter part. He is just plain better. His dtilt and ftilt are the most noticeable examples of this. His recovery is better, thats mentioned on the site. And his side b is the same, so you're getting a brawl ganondorf turned to melee. Imo ganon has been balanced very well.
Match ups
Link - 55/45 (Already covered this on link)
Mario - 45/55 (Already covered this on mario)
Lucas - 55/45
This is ganondorf's match, I said earlier the most important thing to beat Lucas is spacing, and ganondorf's got that. Honestly I could go on for paragraphs about how much ganon beats Lucas but you just need to now when lucas is going to attack and out space him. Once again though reason this match up isn't even more in ganondorf's favor is because of Lucas's beastly pressure, once you get hit by a good lucas you will be *****. You may not lose your stock but you will be one giant step closer to it.
Marth - ??/??
Got almost no time with this match up but it is still pretty bad for ganondorf.
Sheik
I spent a little time with her but didn't delve to deep, but she seems largely unchanged from her melee counterpart... except for the uair doesn't kill, she's sort of like pal sheik now. I didn't check to see if the tether was still there, I'm sure the official Project M site will have that info though.
I've been notified its the same as the melee uair but it definetly feels different, perhaps its just the size of the brawl model in play. I dunno It feels weird but the uair still kills.
Lucas
Lucas is good...really good. The only thing that offsets his amazingness is his poor spacing, But once he gets a hit in he should be able to combo with a variety of options. He seems particularly effective against spacies on FD, I experimented a little with that and he can combo fox with uthrow to uair to fair. It varies but thats the general order. before that though its usually grab dthrow and tech chase regrab for the set up. Also, His jab doesn't work as well as others for a lead into grab. that has to be mind gamed in. Most likely by pivot grabbing. Holding b also allows you to charge lucas and power up his smash attacks, which is pretty cool. In short lucas feels a lot more fluid than the other characters and actually feels like he is a melee character.
[More to come!]
Video's in second post
I'll do a brief overview of the match ups that I came across with character I spent a significant amount of time playing.
Mario
Combos -
All of mario's melee combo's are there, his recovery is better and the replacment of his fair with Doc's makes his combo's more deadly. They start off the same but end up differently depending on the situation. Dsmash is even more amazing and a much better kill move this time around, his Ftilt is also a viable GTFO move. Mario can insta grab the ledge if he falls off and capes towards the stage. It seems others character can do this with reverse b moves as well.
Match ups
Ganondorf - 55/45
While ganondorf can outrange mario the fact that mario is so much faster means that after one hit it should lead to a good 40% or so, and if played correctly you can get ganon off the stage. And while his recovery isn't as bad as it is in melee its still pretty easy bair guard him.
Marth - 40/60
this is just as bad as it was in melee, Marth still ***** him up and down the stage and left to right.
Sonic 55/45
Sonic is fast as a speeding bullet but his priority isn't there, mario can only combo him a little because sonic is actually pretty floaty despite how fast he is, and mario's usmash ***** whatever sonic comes down with from the air. The only real threat here is sonic's dsmash, its his best tool against mario (who's spacing isn't so good) As long as mario out space's/out prioritizes sonic then this match is won.
Fox 40/60
Its more or less the same. Further research will need to be done, I didn't check out this match up in to much detail. Same with Falco.
Lucas 45/55
Lucas is a beast...Lucas IS A BEAST. His pressure is comparable to fox and Falco and his spacing is better then the majority of Mario's moves AND he's fast as hell during his pressure. This is a fast paced match that will have mario spacing like crazy with bairs and wave dash's. But half of Lucas's pressure game rely's on landing a grab, cause thats where it starts, getting around that and comboing from there is where it starts to hurt mario. The only reason this match up isnt worse is because mario can combo him back, but lucas DOES out space mario, even by just a little
Stages -
Lucas does well on medium size stages so avoid those, (Fod, Ys, Battlefield is meh) But on the Metal Cavern from smash64 is pretty effective against him because of the numerous slopes (they mess up his grabs) same goes for the new hyrule stage, temple: m. You may also want to consider taking him to silph co. that is if you want to camp the hell out of him, but im guessing most of us didnt get this game to camp. Bigger stages can be both bad and good, if you have better projectiles, good. if not...bad.
Good-
Dreamland64
Metal Cavern
Temple:M
Silph Co.
Bad-
Yoshi's Story
Fountain of Dreams
Rumble Falls
SSE:Jungle
Smashville
Link
Link is slightly better, maybe a lot better, he's a unique character so I'm still exploring what he can do. But his combo's this time around are a lot more obvious, rang combo's in particular are reminiscent of smash64. His up-b is more beastly and its hitbox seems to come out faster. You can still up-b ledge hog but its a little floatier so the timing is different. His nair is even MORE amazing than in melee (If thats even possible!) His aeiral moves in general are faster and his l-canceled dair comes out at about the speed of young links, as does his f-tilt...My god..the ftilt! Its your general GTFO move. There are several characters that can be D-throw > Ftilted at any given moment and put far enough away from you that they cant retaliate! The uptilt and Usmash have both received more range and if im not mistaken the utitlt has more power. Skraaaa out of shield is even better of a pressure killer. but it still wont work against a frame perfect fox or falco. His wave dash timing is really odd though. (Vids Soon) One more thing, his hookshot (Clawshot) is shorter, I mean his up b is better but its just as punishable as it was in melee, so having the clawshot shorter really makes his recovery worse overall. but not by THAT much.
Match ups
Ganondorf - 45/55
Very much the same, the rule of thumb still applies here...don't go near ganondorf, and he can still chaingrab link. But link has a lot of new stuff to **** ganon with as well. I'm calling this slight ganon for the moment, still dont know everything about this match up.
Marth - 50/50
Its the same as melee, except now that link is better the match up is more viable. Again, dont have all that much experience with this match up.
Falco - 45/55
This is a little better, link can usmash falco oos or Skrrraaaa oos to break combo's, not to mention skraaa kills at lower percents now so it can be more dangerous for falco to attack. Falco (and most characters) tech roll slower now so link can tech chase via down throw a lot easier and D-throw tech chase into Skraaa or even another grab whenever he wants. He also has all his old tricks against falco intact. But the insane amount of pressure falco still has over him is puts this match in falco's advantage.
Fox - 45/55
The match up is more or less the same as it was in melee, excpet for the changes mentioned above. the match up is very similar, you will be getting grabbed to uair more in this one though.. and one more very interesting bit is link will now tumble from the shine. meaning he can be thunders combo'd now, but in general shine is weaker against him. And as always he has the same tricks he did before.
Lucas - 55/45
I got some time with this match up but not as much as I would have liked.. in a nut shell, link beats lucas, the key to beating this little bugger is good spacing and link has plenty of that, but his newer tricks run circles around this little guy. Link can do this from very low %.
Jab>Jab>Grab>Dthrow>Turn around> Jab>Jab>Grab>Dthrow>Turn around>Ftilt
Not to mention at ANY given time in the match link can [Jab>Jab>Grab>Dthrow>Ftilt] And remember ftilt is good now so at higher percents this will kill lucas without fail.
And the first combo mentioned can be elongated because lucas will almost always spotdodge, wait for it, regrab and then do whatever. you dont even have to turn around and jab rest him, you can utilt>bair him if you want. And even though lucas has some good projectiles link's are better, his arrows, bomb and particularly rang, will mess lucas up. The only reason this isnt 60/40 is because of how well lucas can pressure a shield. And even though link as gotten better his shield is still a prime target for rush down characters.
Falcon - 45/55
This is more or less the same thing as in melee, but link has more ways to grab falcon now so link can get in more combo's, the only problem is falcons nair has been buffed so your projectiles are less useful. But other than that its the same.
Ganondorf
Again not all that much time with ganondorf but I can tell you right now he is far more viable then his melee AND brawl counter part. He is just plain better. His dtilt and ftilt are the most noticeable examples of this. His recovery is better, thats mentioned on the site. And his side b is the same, so you're getting a brawl ganondorf turned to melee. Imo ganon has been balanced very well.
Match ups
Link - 55/45 (Already covered this on link)
Mario - 45/55 (Already covered this on mario)
Lucas - 55/45
This is ganondorf's match, I said earlier the most important thing to beat Lucas is spacing, and ganondorf's got that. Honestly I could go on for paragraphs about how much ganon beats Lucas but you just need to now when lucas is going to attack and out space him. Once again though reason this match up isn't even more in ganondorf's favor is because of Lucas's beastly pressure, once you get hit by a good lucas you will be *****. You may not lose your stock but you will be one giant step closer to it.
Marth - ??/??
Got almost no time with this match up but it is still pretty bad for ganondorf.
Sheik
I spent a little time with her but didn't delve to deep, but she seems largely unchanged from her melee counterpart... except for the uair doesn't kill, she's sort of like pal sheik now. I didn't check to see if the tether was still there, I'm sure the official Project M site will have that info though.
I've been notified its the same as the melee uair but it definetly feels different, perhaps its just the size of the brawl model in play. I dunno It feels weird but the uair still kills.
Lucas
Lucas is good...really good. The only thing that offsets his amazingness is his poor spacing, But once he gets a hit in he should be able to combo with a variety of options. He seems particularly effective against spacies on FD, I experimented a little with that and he can combo fox with uthrow to uair to fair. It varies but thats the general order. before that though its usually grab dthrow and tech chase regrab for the set up. Also, His jab doesn't work as well as others for a lead into grab. that has to be mind gamed in. Most likely by pivot grabbing. Holding b also allows you to charge lucas and power up his smash attacks, which is pretty cool. In short lucas feels a lot more fluid than the other characters and actually feels like he is a melee character.
[More to come!]
.
