Project M Social Thread

[GuruKid]

Two things:

1) How far are the closest P:M players from central NJ? Do you guys have any smashfests or whatever set up?

2) How do NY people (Eli/Leelue/whoeverelse) feel about coming to smashfests at New Brunswick? We could set up a small tournament too if people are interested, and order ****tons of food since we're on a college campus.

If it helps, we've got demo 2.5 :3 and by "we" I mean IE, because he's a dev but is too lazy to make posts and set stuff up so I'm here doing it for him. We're getting tired of playing the same two MUs every day, seriously, someone please help us.

A small group of us meet up about once a week to play in Queens. We announce them regularly at our NYC/LI P:M FB page (NJ is practically the same region though so feel free to join).

As for attending Central NJ smashfests, I'd be there fo sho as long as I know the date in advance. I'd like to try this "Demo 2.5" you speak of.

 

[bubbaking]

I mean, a lot of Pokémon can claim that once they have weather boosting one of their moves and they've had time to set up. Victreebel is far too frail for that to happen often anywhere close to reliably in OU.

How many Pokemon can legitimately claim to 2HKO every single non-Uber Pokemon in the roster with only one turn of setup? Yeah, it's frail, but that's what the rest of the team is for. With its typing, Volcarona is pretty frail too. That doesn't stop it from setting up on things it resists. Victreebel's typing is better than Volcarona's defensively, and Victreebel needs less turns of setup to be spectacular

> Implying that sand is as broken as rain / sun
> Implying that sun "counters" sand

Bubba, you no longer have the right to talk about Gen V OU -- and I stopped reading your post there.

Ah yes, the ego trip that iLink was talking about. Yes, Sand IS as broken as rain and is way better than sun. Sand has some of the best abusers of weather (at least two of which had to be banned). Terrakion, Reuniclus, Alakazam, Landorus, the list goes on and on. Also, without a doubt, Tyranitar is the BEST legal weather setter in the game. My Toed hit a Ttar with Scald IN RAIN and I only did 49% damage.

I don't like going for Sunny Day as Ninetails. It's a huge risk prediction wise imo and it's hard to pull off consecutively with Stealth Rock so prevalent. Honestly the typing for Ninetails hurts it the most, makes it hard to deal with SR and starts off disadvantaged to both Rain and Sand. Using it repeatedly for shifting weather into your favor is bound to go less favorably than the other 2 main starters regardless of what set you are running. Then again, you know exactly what you are getting into when you run Sun instead of Rain.

Edit: How much would Bullet Punch Scizor do to Victree? I don't have the numbers off the top of my head but I'm nearly certain it takes a massive 80+ chunk out of it

Wouldn't be unreasonable to see a Mamoswine/Ice Shard somewhere either, ideally not there just to check grass sweepers lol

Btw guys, it's Ninetales! Anyway, yeah, I don't really like Sun over Rain and Sand at all, tbh. I just think that Sunnytales is a nice way of trying to use it. For some reason 9Kplus1 seems to get a turn-on over sun, but they really suck.

Hmmm, Bullet Punch might do that much if it's banded......maaaaybe. I really don't know. As for Mamoswine, well, that's reasonable but that would shut down Venusaur as well, so it's not a disadvantage for Victree over Venus.

On-topic: Why do non-Wolf spacees get to have everything that Wolf has but better?

 

[JesusSmashesPuffs]

On-topic: Why do non-Wolf spacees get to have everything that Wolf has but better?

Because melee. Does this really need to be said anymore?

 

[Stevo]

which moves, in your opinion, does Wolf have that are inferior to Falco and Fox?

(just curious)

I don't think it is necessarily all of them

 

[JOE!]

Because melee. Does this really need to be said anymore?

I wonder when this excuse will get to be put aside... like when all the characters are out and such, would fox/falco be able to be put under the microscope?

 

[DMG]

Not if you give everyone a CG, good range, kill power recovery... IKE

 

[iLink]

which moves, in your opinion, does Wolf have that are inferior to Falco and Fox?

(just curious)

I don't think it is necessarily all of them

Nair, dair, bair.

 

[Soft Serve]

Bubba I think you mean to ask why Wolf has just toned down versions of the original spacie moves. It's not like the spacie's designs have changed at all, Wolf was changed to fit them.

I don't think Wolf really lacks much either. He doesn't have that monstrous safety and power that fox and falco has, but he has rediculous speed and mobility, as well as good finishes from odd angles, with set ups that can be followed up no mater what depending on DI.

 

[Stevo]

Nair, dair, bair.

I personally think it depends which of the spacies you are comparing too as well.
I would say wolf's dair is better than Fox's (opinion)
and that Wolf's up-air is better than falco's (again, all opinion)

Wolf's Nair is certainly worse
Bair I also agree is worse.

Fair is better though! (even though flutter hush has some uses lol)
Shine is a shine, even if it is a bit worse, it;s still a shine.
Wolf Blaster seems better than fox blaster overall (I could be wrong)

I would say Wolf's tilts are worse, especially up-tilt. Jab might be slightly worse, not sure.
Wolf's smashes are pretty good though. Different, but good. Falco's up-smash is almost ALWAYS worse than doing a turn around up-tilt (it's just easier to do the smash)

You can claim that most of Wolf's moves are worse than at least one of the spacies, but how is it fair to compare it like that? What matters is what Wolf can do with the moves he has and how they interact with eachother.

 

[standardtoaster]

Hypothetically, were there a regional for P:M in Texas some time next year, how many would be able to make the trip out? One of our TO's has expressed interest in organizing one since our scene is pretty decent but the other big scenes are all kind of far. It would probably have one of the other games (or both) depending on what people wanted

Hm, how many entrants do you think you would get for melee and pm?

 

[Strong Badam]

I'd go if it didn't conflict w/ Genesis 3 & EVO.

 

[JesusSmashesPuffs]

I wonder when this excuse will get to be put aside... like when all the characters are out and such, would fox/falco be able to be put under the microscope?

For the record I don't believe in this as an excuse, but it's the easy answer.

 

[Professor Pro]

Project M v2.5 Stream is UP & ACTIVE!!!

Tune in for some of the top UK players duking it out feat. Fuzzyness, Myself, Alpha Dash & J3ly @
www.twitch.tv/fuzzyness

 

[bubbaking]

It's called Kirby's Dream Land, not D3's Dream Land nor MK's Dream Land. Your argument is invalid.

It's King Dedede's Dream Land. Kirby's a rebel. He just went ahead and put his name on the box.

which moves, in your opinion, does Wolf have that are inferior to Falco and Fox?

(just curious)

I don't think it is necessarily all of them

• Aerials. All of Fox's and Falco's aerials start up faster, IIRC. In other words, even though it's flutter kick, their fair ALSO has certain utility that Wolf's doesn't. It's still safe (shine) as a fast option that you need to come out immediately, and it combos when other things don't at high %'s. These insta-aerials are part of what give the other spacees such flawless shine pressure and even pressure without shines. The lack of such instantaneousness makes holes in Wolf's shieldpressure game.
  Tl;dr - Fox and Falco can pillar. Wolf can't.....not well anyway.
• Tilts. Wolf's utilt kinda stinks. Fox's and Falco's are godly. It's like the Smash god (Sakurai ) took 64 Kirby's utilt and gave it to them. Their dtilts are also great. Wolf's isn't. Fox's and Falco's are fast, Falco's kills and is a great mixup, Fox's extends combos. Wolf just kinda sticks out his leg and taps you.
• Smashes. Fox's and Falco's hit on both sides simultaneously, so it's a legitimate defense against opponents behind them. None of that "Oh, the opponent's behind me, let me use a dsmash that attacks in front of me first and give them a chance to spot-dodge" crap. It is also a good answer for recoveries. For instance, a common strat against Sheik is to grab the ledge. When she poofs, press forward to do a normal quick getup (<100%). If she tries to poof slightly above the ledge, dsmash catches her. Not so good with Wolf. Fox's usmash is clearly better, but I feel like Falco's is also faster than Wolf's. Wolf's fsmash is also hella weak and pretty unsafe compared to Fox's and Falco's.
• Specials. I don't care what anyone says. It's much better for someone to have a laser that land cancels than a laser that must be AD'd out of at an awkward height. Fox's lasers might not be better directly, but they rack damage faster and more reliably. Fox doesn't need stage control lasers anyway. There's no way Wolf zoning is even on the same level as Falco zoning. Falco's lasers also mess up recoveries. I feel like Wolf's shine is more easily CC'd, making it easier to mess up his stuff. I find ledgestalling to be worse with Wolf's upB. It aso doesn't have that 'kick' that Fox's and Falco's have. It can be out-prioritized and CC'd. Fox's and Falco's upB's have no lag. Wolf's has too much. His sideB is legitimately good, but at best, it's on par with Fox's and Falco's overall. If Fox and Falco hit you with it when recovering, it can turn into a lost stock 'cause Spacee shenanigans. Not so much for Wolf.
• Throws. I'm only gonna talk about one throw: dthrow. Fox's and Falco's dthrow set up MUCH more reliable TC's. If you miss the tech, easy usmash/dsmash. Clearly not so for Wolf.

The list goes on and on.

Edit: And I forgot to mention that Fox/Falco lasers are transcendent. Wolf's can be beaten out, and easily at that.

Bubba I think you mean to ask why Wolf has just toned down versions of the original spacie moves. It's not like the spacie's designs have changed at all, Wolf was changed to fit them.

What I mean is: Why wasn't Wolf made to actually equal them? Why wasn't he given their tools, not just mediocre rip-offs of them? Or if not that, then why weren't the other spacees nerfed a bit to make up for making another clone that's clearly worse?

I don't think Wolf really lacks much either. He doesn't have that monstrous safety and power that fox and falco has, but he has rediculous speed and mobility, as well as good finishes from odd angles, with set ups that can be followed up no mater what depending on DI.

You know what the funny thing is? I actually agree with you. I think Wolf is very balanced as he is, and if the other spacees did not exist as they are now, I'd say to not change him at all in the slightest, but the other spacees do exist. Fox in particular has "monstrous safety and power" AND "ridiculous speed and mobility," as well as "good finishes from odd angles." Falco also has a lot of that, not all of it but more of it than what Wolf has.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Wolf having a shine might mean more if you couldn't just hold down to counter it.

 

[bubbaking]

Ex-

Wait for it

-actly!

 

[DMG]

I do NOT like Wolf's Nair. It makes sense from the Brawl perspective, but he needs a sex kick or a strong approaching aerial. Would it be boring? Yes. But god that stupid Nair just doesn't flow very well imo with the character and unless his hitboxes on the move are underrepresented, I feel like it's easier for the other 2 spacies to trade or space with their Nair.

His Dair not being a lingering drill/hitbox is also a big issue. Falco's Dair (understandably so considering how good it is) feels superior at just about everything. Falco's feet iirc get invincibility/intangible right? Does Wolf get anything like that? Even if he did, both Fox and Falco imo have better Dairs. Fox's Dair is a useful approaching tool to get around CC. Lot of times if you try to Nair in with Fox they CC at lower %, you get grabbed or punished, no good. If you Dair, they eat the drill (if not, they may be shielding you can try to get out of that still etc). If someone is above you on a platform, instead of doing a 1 hit aerial you can do drill and try to land behind them as a cross up. Minor stuff and Wolf/Fox Dairs have different purposes, but Fox's Dair is still useful.


Those are the 2 main things. Approaching in general for Wolf feels harder, and I feel his aerial game for all intents is weaker than Fox Falco. On a more minor note, I honestly feel his laser is CLEARLY the worst out of the 3. Fox gets speed and range on his, it's better at actually damaging the opponent and forcing them to move out of the way. Wolf's is basically a Guile projectile, but loses to regular attacks and we aren't playing a game (SF) where "jump in" options are more limited.

Perfect example of the concept working well: Lucario's AS. The strong one covers a lot of area, does not easily lose or trade with attacks, and Lucario can honestly try to pressure off of it. The drawback? He can't spam it every second or two. That move is an example of the Guile concept working. Wolf has the poor man version of it, plain and simple.

 

[Jolteon]

http://www.twitch.tv/fuzzyness

 

[Yobolight]

Can I get an unscientific totally opinion based but serious project M tier list?

 

[victra♥]

Daze wasn't there, and I'll post on that thread as soon as I'm sure that I'm accurate in who used who.


Poor Ka-master didn't even get to try P:M once before the tournament and got wrecked. He's still amazing in melee though (he got 3rd narrowly losing to Silentwolf and Bladewise in Melee singles). I'm sure he'd dominate the P:M bracket if he put in some time to get used to it.

reminds me of the other month when Mike Monkey from the Punch Crew and Stevo came out to our first P:M tournament without ever playing it before and won teams.

 

[bubbaking]

Can I get an unscientific totally opinion based but serious project M tier list?

http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-4068-post-107652.html#pid107652

Edit: That was mine. Here's the average of everyone's (the recent ones, anyway):
http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-4068-post-92844.html#pid92844

 

[Stevo]

reminds me of the other month when Mike Monkey from the Punch Crew and Stevo came out to our first P:M tournament without ever playing it before and won teams.

It was actually a lot of fun playing smash while not knowing absolutely everything there is to know about the game again lol.

I'm really looking forward to P:M this weekend, though I wish we could play 2.5

can we get a 2.2 with the revealed engine updates but none of the characters of 2.5? lol

 

[leelue]

Bubbaking...
Did you just use the word safe in the same sentence as "fox/falco forward smash"?
Ur buggin

 

[bubbaking]

"Wolf's fsmash is also hella weak and pretty unsafe compared to Fox's and Falco's." What's the problem?

Edit: And that's a really small part to nitpick over out of my entire argument.

 

[Wizzrobe]

What version of PM will be at Apex? I heard it would be 2.1 but I wanted to make sure

 

[Revven]

What version of PM will be at Apex? I heard it would be 2.1 but I wanted to make sure

I'm not confirming anything but if 2.5 comes out before Apex, that's what would likely be used. It's stated as 2.1 otherwise.

 

[leelue]

I could nitpick a whole lot more but the amount of energy wasted would be insane
You're straight ignoring various upsides to wolfs moveset

Wolfs lasers are really good. You can hit them, yeah. But they stuff your aerial approach and let him punish

Wolfs down smash is better than all of falcos smashes

Wolfs recovery is more difficult to deal with

Wolfs up smash is crazy good with a read and reaches everywhere

Wolfs forward smash covers like 3/4s of bridge of eldin

Wolfs up air comes out faster than falcos and foxs

Wolf has an amazing combo finisher in side b

Wolf has a shorter jumpsquat than falco and traverses far more distance per jump

Wolves are pack animals, and falcos aren't even real birds

 

[Stevo]

Wolfs down smash is better than all of falcos smashes

whoa whoa whoa, are you sure?

I really like Falco's f-smash.

maybe I need to be using Wolf's d-smash more.....

 

[DrinkingFood]

Relevant to your interests: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kqmpcP2c9c

 

[Stevo]

I now main Wolf's down smash

 

[DMG]

Wolf is the worst spacie hands down. He has positives, but the few absolute things that make Fox and Falco ridiculous are missing from Wolf. If he had either shine (and I MEAN a shine like they have), sex kick, better Dair etc he would fit right in. He's shy of the mark though. He's more like what a spacie "should" be honestly (although after the years of Shine from Fox Falco, I dunno if anyone can really be ok with how his Shine fares compared to theirs)

 

[Shadow Huan]

Wolves are pack animals, and falcos aren't even real birds

LOL

sigged

also ditto on Wolf being like what a spacie "should" be like

 

[Oracle]

Hm, how many entrants do you think you would get for melee and pm?

That's what I'm trying to gauge; I'm not entirely sure.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I would highly considering entering it, I live in Lousiana.

 

[Stevo]

just a thought, maybe try playing Wolf like he is his own character and see what happens.

and how is his shine worse? (serious question)

 

[iLink]

You can crouch cancel his shine

 

[GP&B]

And that's pretty ****ed up. Crotch canceling will not save your eyes from the shine.

 

[leelue]

I wasn't making a statement about wolf being as good as flaco, just that bbk was saying that he's worse in every way and that isn't true.

 

[bubbaking]

I could nitpick a whole lot more but the amount of energy wasted would be insane

No johns.

Wolfs lasers are really good. You can hit them, yeah. But they stuff your aerial approach and let him punish

Falco's lasers stuff your approach.....and you can't hit them. Note that I never said that Wolf's tools aren't good. I simply said that they are inferior to the other spacees' analogous tools. The same goes for Wolf's lasers. It's very good, but it's.....inferior.

Wolfs down smash is better than all of falcos smashes

You're gonna be hard-pressed to prove that Wolf's dsmash is better than Falco's fsmash.

Wolfs recovery is more difficult to deal with

Only in some ways. Wolf's upB has lag. Fox's and Falco's don't. Wolf's sideB doesn't combo into a table-turning reversal like Fox's and Falco's do. Wolf's upB doesn't get that crazy priority that Fox's does and, as I said before, it can be CC'd and punished unless you get that perfect spacing that sends the opponent sliding across the stage.

Wolfs up smash is crazy good with a read and reaches everywhere

Um, so does Fox's? Fox's usmash has that whole sphere of protection that kills off the top in front of and above him and kills out the side behind him. Fox's usmash also comes out on frame 6. Falco's usmash isn't that bad either but there are better things you could be doing, like utilting. Fox also sets up for his usmash wonderfully with his shine, his jab, some of his aerials, and his dthrow TC. Wolf can only wishes he had all that.

Wolfs forward smash covers like 3/4s of bridge of eldin

"Wolf's fsmash is also hella weak and pretty unsafe compared to Fox's and Falco's." One can CC Wolf's fsmash way easier than Fox/Falco's, unless, again, you "get that perfect spacing that sends the opponent sliding across the stage" but which you can't kill with or follow up on.

Wolfs up air comes out faster than falcos and foxs

I highly doubt that's actually true, but I'll just take you at your word since I don't know P:M Wolf's exact frame data. Fox's uair comes out on frame 8, combos, and kills. It's also very easy to land with Fox's uair to secure kills and combos.

Wolf has an amazing combo finisher in side b

Very happy that you get one good finisher that Falco and Fox don't have, even though if you miss offstage with it, you die. Meanwhile, Falco combos into bair kills and dair spikes offstage while Fox combos into usmash/uair kills and shine spikes, all without having to utilize a special that takes away all their jumps if they miss.

Wolf has a shorter jumpsquat than falco and traverses far more distance per jump

That's cool. Fox just runs faster and transfers his ground speed into his air speed when he jumps. I'd like to see what Wolf does with that increased jump distance that Fox's running speed doesn't already accomplish for him, especially when Fox has better aerials to accompany it.

Wolves are pack animals, and falcos aren't even real birds

You mean Flacos. Get it right!

 

[Ishiey]

A small group of us meet up about once a week to play in Queens. We announce them regularly at our NYC/LI P:M FB page (NJ is practically the same region though so feel free to join).

As for attending Central NJ smashfests, I'd be there fo sho as long as I know the date in advance. I'd like to try this "Demo 2.5" you speak of.

Awesome, I just sent a request to join the group and shared the link with IE. Dates will definitely be posted at least a week in advance, but nothing coming up too soon.


@ Wolf stuff: it's kinda lame how you can CC his shine, but I'd rather carry that over to Fox/Falco than remove it for Wolf. Who knows how likely that is to happen though >__> his nair could use a change, maybe making it more like Sonic's? Fsmash is very good, and I don't think bair is too shabby. Neither of those moves really fit in with the assumed "spacie" playstyle, but serve their purpose in a more brawl-like fashion imo.