Project M Social Thread

[leelue]

Bbk you keep comparing everything he has to either fox or falco and if its worse than either you jump on it.
Which is an objectively stupid stupid way to evaluate a character. How many traits are you expecting him to have that are better than Both in Every way?

Then there are plain silly statements like
"even though if you miss offstage with it, you die"
Which miss the heart of the argument entirely. I am pointing out a tool that wolf has that the others dont. Which, by the way, can be used onstage in character positions that the other two simply cant do. Pointing out the consequences of poor planning/spacing does nothing to refute the foundation of my point.
----------------------------------------
Again, you're saying "Why do non-Wolf spacees get to have everything that Wolf has but better" and Im saying that each individual spacie doesnt have everything wolf has but better.
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So yes, fox has the best smash out of the spacies. But it doesn't have the range that wolf's up smash does. Or that crazy gimping angle. There is tradeoff.
Fox's overall is better, but not in every way.

I could do the same thing for lasers. Falcos is Of Course better than wolf's but wolf can use his in a completely different way, especially because wolf covers more space out of a jump than falco which is then followed up by a waveland in or out depending on the events that have transpired since the player decided to press B. The tool is worse overall, but effective nonetheless for and has upsides over falcos in tangible ways.

"I highly doubt that's actually true, but I'll just take you at your word since I don't know P:M Wolf's exact frame data. Fox's uair comes out on frame 8, combos, and kills"
There's no reason to take my word for it, nor is there a reason for you to tell me what frame fox's comes out on. I actually check the frame data before I say things. Wolf's up air comes out frame 6. And for what it's worth, it combos extremely well and can kill too. Not only that, but it combos horizontally, which makes comparing the two moves even less of an exact science.
(EDIT: Ironically, I've since forgotten what frame his up air comes out on. Either it comes out on frame 6, or the timer that tells it when to come out ends on frame six. I'm no longer home to check, and my memory is terrible. So it may be frame 7 which is still better than fox's in that regard.)

"You're gonna be hard-pressed to prove that Wolf's dsmash is better than Falco's fsmash."
I actually believe it is, based on the number of times I've been killed by the move under 80% and the fact that the move is safer on block. It's close, though, and no sane/educated person could say that the two arent at the very least comparable in usefulness.

"Wolf's fsmash is also hella weak and pretty unsafe compared to Fox's and Falco's."
And this, right here, is why it's so notoriously infuriating to argue with you. I offer a point (wolf's has range) and you ignore the point and point out something about it you perceive to be worse.

 

[Strong Badam]

Wolf is the worst spacie hands down.

oh no, he's worse than the two best characters in the game!

 

[leelue]

oh no, he's worse than the two best characters in the game!

lolololol
10lolols

 

[ELI-mination]

You could have just added another lol at the end of that

You didn't have to put the 10lolols there ma dood

10lmaos

 

[DrinkingFood]

And this, right here, is why it's so notoriously infuriating to argue with you. I offer a point (wolf's has range) and you ignore the point and point out something about it you perceive to be worse.

Don't pick on Bubba, he has a hard time understanding sentences

oh no, he's worse than the two best characters in the game!

Seems logical

 

[DMG]

I thought someone made the claim that Wolf would "one day" be seen as the best spacie. I was addressing that, not what you are talking about. But please go on, do enlighten me!

 

[9Kplus1]

Wolf is closer to being a furry than Flaco and Fox

that alone makes him the best spacie imo

 

[ELI-mination]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLdJgrWt2gE&feature=g-all-c

Seemed like an appropriate time

 

[leelue]

Was that addressed to me? I certainly was not trying to argue against that heh
Miscommunication on the internet?

 

[bubbaking]

So yes, fox has the best smash out of the spacies. But it doesn't have the range that wolf's up smash does. Or that crazy gimping angle. There is tradeoff.
Fox's overall is better, but not in every way.

I'm nitpicking. Didn't have time to read the entire post, but I got the gist of it. Just wanted to point out that Fox's usmash can send the opponent downwards at a negative angle. Not making any point, just sayin'.

 

[leelue]

Wolfs angle murders *****s tho
And Eli posted that video just now. I'm obviously right, now.

 

[bubbaking]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLdJgrWt2gE&feature=g-all-c

Seemed like an appropriate time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4kXsc1jtHI&feature=plcp

Seemed like an appropriate time.

oh no, he's worse than the two best characters in the game!

Maybe you guys should actually work to bring balance to your game. You're willing to take jabs at Sheik, 'cause oh boy, everybody hates her, but don't lay a finger on Fox or Falco. We need our mass spacee appeal.

Don't pick on Bubba, he has a hard time understanding sentences

At least I try to have actual discussions rather than lurk in the threads looking for a chance to pop up and make fun of someone. I'll admit that I'm very argumentative and some of my arguments are dumb, but at least I'm not looking for every opportunity to put someone down. Ugh, you make me sick! All this discussion and that was the only thing you could say?

 

[leelue]

Am I the only one who wants yoshi in 2.5

 

[The Good Doctor]

Am I the only one who wants yoshi in 2.5

My friend really want's this.

 

[iLink]

I'm personally holding off for metaknight. I liked him in brawl but I always feel dirty using characters that are arguably the best with a very short learning curve.

 

[hamyojo]

Am I the only one who wants yoshi in 2.5

inb4 still can't jump out of shield

 

[hotdogturtle]

Topic for discussion: Snake's side-B seems very out of place in a "Melee environment" and should be replaced with an entirely new move.

 

[iLink]

I think it's fine

 

[hamyojo]

Topic for discussion: Snake seems very out of place in a "Melee environment" and should be replaced with an entirely new character.

You're welcome.

 

[BJN39]

Hey PMBR, if possible will you ever fix the animation glitch on Zelda's pivot grab?
The one where that extra part of her dress in the front is way randomly angled through her dress.

 

[leelue]

I think that clinging to melee has many many limiting effects, and anytime an exception gets made I'm happy. So long as its fair.

Edit
In moderation

 

[hamyojo]

Replace Snakes side b with a spacie laser
fixd

Honestly the only thing in P:M that feels too out of place is the grabbing moves like Luci's side b and Ganons side b.

Shields mean so much less now, especially when Lucario can combo right into them.

Big chars like D3 or Bowser can do very little against that stuff.

 

[Shadic]

Honestly the only thing in P:M that feels too out of place is the grabbing moves like Luci's side b and Ganons side b.

Koopa Klaw.

 

[ELI-mination]

I like Snake's side-b the way it is.

Also, subscribe.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah I've never seen a grabbing move in Melee

Such as Bowser's side-b, Ganon's Up-B, Falcon's Up-B, or Kirby's Neutral-B.

 

[JOE!]

Dont forget the Z button.

 

[leelue]

Egg lay
Confusion

 

[hamyojo]

Forgot Mewtwo's side b~

But at least to me it doesn't fit.
Maybe I'm just dumb.

PMBR pass plz

 

[FireBall Stars]

While I would agree that a different move would be cooler, Nikita is hella strong.

Can't be used all the time, but when you land it, it will certainly be a good reward.

 

[stingers]

Nikita is honestly one of his best moves now. It helps his rather lackluster edgeguarding game a lot.

I <3 Snake, hes a lot of fun and has all the tools he needs to win.

 

[leelue]

Snake and DDD are the second and third most fun characters in the game for me. Lucario would be up there if I was good with him

 

[ELI-mination]

Snake and DDD are the second and third most fun characters in the game for me. Lucario would be up there if I was good with him

Don't listen to this guy, he's good with Lucario but refuses to acknowledge it

 

[DMG]

Was that addressed to me? I certainly was not trying to argue against that heh
Miscommunication on the internet?

No not you, might have even been Smashmods. I'm tired and Sonic smells like poo

Topic for discussion: Snake's side-B seems very out of place in a "Melee environment" and should be replaced with an entirely new move.

Yea, Snake should be the torpedo. He should spin and fly at them like Bison Psycho Crusher

Don't listen to this guy, he's good with Lucario but refuses to acknowledge it

And apparently he's ****in GREAT with Ganon.

 

[Jolteon]

Topic for discussion: Snake's side-B seems very out of place in a "Melee environment" and should be replaced with an entirely new move.

I agree that it's a little out of place, but it's really important for his game.

 

[clowsui]

Taken from the other P:M thread, posting here because it's a very legitimate concern.

And no, I won't cut them down, because the entirety of each post is useful/important.

My understanding is if the defender gets the right DI to match Sheik's throw choice they get out, otherwise Sheik gets an NTSC style throw combo.

My issue with this model is that it depends on a bad DI and the throws, despite their speed, have distinct (different) animations. If she's a problem, people will learn to react to her throw choice (happened to Marth in Melee but he had tech chase & u-throw > sword to fall back on [but Sheik doesn't]
). Moreover, I'm fearful that DIs exist that force her to regrab or whatnot in certain situations - these kinds of DIs are dangerous because they're essentially free DI guesses for the defender. I also dislike that functionally regrab is such a flimsy option, when in PAL and NTSC it's the damage consolidation option and generally regarded as the one you pick to emphasize consistency. But there's nothing consistent about regrabbing in PM. Finally, even if this is actually too fast to react to, you're still playing a 50-50 when I don't see why it's necessary. Other characters have amazing, consistent throws (and other combo starters). Why should Sheik be different? I doubt she's anywhere near top 5 in this game. Morever, Falco barely got nerfed in the transition and he's considered better than Sheik by the bulk of the MBR. So why did Sheik need to get nerfed so hard?

Regarding overall quality of each throw model... just because PAL's follow ups are so limited I'm not sure if her PAL throw is actually better (it's close). But I think that's also irrelevant in some ways (the question of which is better). I would still prefer the PAL throw because it behaves consistently (which is basically Shek's flavour as a top tier in Melee), it can be developed and fleshed out if it's a decent move (which it is), and it gives a more appropriate level of control to the comboing player (or at least in my eyes, but this kind of thing is largely subjective anyway). Thrusting the punish game into coin tosses just introduces too much randomness. And, again, if she's seriously a good character deep down then people will learn to react to the throw (like they've done in Melee) and those tools will no longer avail her much at all. It's happened before.

Yeah but in PAL I'd argue that even though high percent KO isn't possible the low percent game can be made consistent with skill. I've seen some very refined low percent throw games in PAL with it (Amsah, Over, Ice, CJ back in the day, etc) and I think if that was her PM throw I'd be cool with it. There's nothing wrong with nerfing it to status of low percent damage builder, anti-shield move at low percent, and anti-crouch move (to get them out of crouch percent ranges) rather than all purpose combo starter, combo extender, combo finisher, direct shield counter at any percent, and anti-crouch move for any percent (that's a retardedly useful all-in-one). And even in PAL I've noticed people trying stuff with it to mitigate the fact that it doesn't work as a direct KO move on floaties like Peach (Over used d-throw > needles to really cool effect at a recent Europe tourney vs Armada - I remember suggesting that offhand a while ago and despite how much I dislike the throw I do think it has some more potential).

However, the PM model distributes control to the players differently. Sheik's ability to convert the grab into control (combo) is primarily dependent on the opponent's DI cooperating with the throw direction she picks. This gives the defending player too much control over whether it works or not IMO because it's reliant on their reaction time as the key variable - whereas PAL d-throw uses factors like percent or positioning that Sheik has some control over (the opponent's efforts to participate in the positioning games during tech chase are punishable by heavier combo starter too, so it's very interactive). The difference is essentially that in PM the throw's effectiveness is largely something Sheik cannot plan for. With PAL d-throw, percents are nice and stable because you have a big say in how you combo and how fast they take damage during it. There's a lot of finesse with controlling their position so you can prepare to punish a bid for the edge cancel position but the victim retains some control & options that are essentially one of the defining features of smash. That said, appropriately I feel the bulk of control is given to the punishing character (which makes sense - you should be in the driver's seat when you initiate a punishment). In PM, I feel too much control is in the hands of the defending player relative to how much control Sheik has.

Like, I get it. I do. It's a tough balance because NTSC Sheik clearly has too much control over her opponent during throw and this needs to be weakened. But in that same regard I feel PAL goes just a bit too far the other way because of how limiting the trajectories are and how the throw's usefulness dwindles as percent rises above a certain point. And PM goes even further in that direction but takes a bad step by funneling the throw game into guess & reaction games - this simply places too much emphasis on how the defender responds to the grab.

I just find it dumb that Falco can be piloted by 2/3 of the best players

And he has a more consistent combo game vs the best characters (himself & Fox)

And he has better stage control tools (laser bolsters movement and cripples opponent's, and his SHFFL range gives him high stage presence)

And he has a better game vs shields (shield pressure based on frame advantage & windows rather than spacing outside shield grab)

And his recovery gives more room to the player for skill because of its variability (potentially lagless recovery, tons of variations & flexibility)

And he was almost completely unchanged aside from being transplanted into sort of a new environment with different nuances to the physics and whatever

But Sheik can't have a consistent throw of any kind and she's far more directly affected by the influx of faster & higher range characters that her Melee defense doesn't fend off as well period (so she has to become more evasion & shield based anyway but then her throw sucks too so keeping pace is stupidly hard and it's like :/)

 

[Archangel]

I'll be honest. I really can't see Snake with any kind of new move.

 

[leelue]

Lol I just like murdering people with side b

 

[DMG]

I'm confused a bit by that, because I thought Shiek's Dthrow was changed to PAL with the minor improvement that she does the throw quicker/moves quicker from it? If you are ONLY talking about her Dthrow, PAL version vs PM version, I'm pretty sure the PM version is slightly better for Shiek. If he means he doesn't like what they did to Bthrow and the guessing game you play between Dthrow and Bthrow (need different DI on each throw), then that I can agree with. However that's not really giving the defending player too many options out: What's the difference between PAL and PM if they DI away? PM Shiek gets to move quicker?


The way I see it, is that those 2 individual throws are already better than their PAL incarnate because she gets to move quicker from them (You guys adjusted the angle on Bthrow or something too right?). Whether the guessing game of Dthrow vs Bthrow is needed, I think that's debatable. But the actual throws? Unless I'm missing something huge from launch angles, scaling, etc, it would seem that it couldn't be any worse than PAL. If Bthrow sucked entirely and could not be used as this janky mixup, would he feel differently? Because that would be even better for the defender.

The comparison to characters with strong throw games is very fair though. Look at how good Ike's grab game is compared to what shiek gets. Uthrow Marth style CG or free hit, Dthrow that even with good DI away can give floaties a hard time, Fthrow and Bthrow that induce tumble even at 0% (Which BTW I would be all for changing, get on it). Mario despite his range, has an amazing throw game. Falcon is lulz, then you have the bad but hopefully fixed soon Ganon Link etc CG fest.

Mario's Dthrow stuff is so easy and lazy, at low % you can literally Dthrow and Usmash without reading DI, and he will hit them regardless lol

 

[clowsui]

I'm confused a bit by that, because I thought Shiek's Dthrow was changed to PAL with the minor improvement that she does the throw quicker/moves quicker from it? If you are ONLY talking about her Dthrow, PAL version vs PM version, I'm pretty sure the PM version is slightly better for Shiek. If he means he doesn't like what they did to Bthrow and the guessing game you play between Dthrow and Bthrow (need different DI on each throw), then that I can agree with. However that's not really giving the defending player too many options out: What's the difference between PAL and PM if they DI away? PM Shiek gets to move quicker?


The way I see it, is that those 2 individual throws are already better than their PAL incarnate because she gets to move quicker from them (You guys adjusted the angle on Bthrow or something too right?). Whether the guessing game of Dthrow vs Bthrow is needed, I think that's debatable. But the actual throws? Unless I'm missing something huge from launch angles, scaling, etc, it would seem that it couldn't be any worse than PAL. If Bthrow sucked entirely and could not be used as this janky mixup, would he feel differently? Because that would be even better for the defender.

"Regarding overall quality of each throw model... just because PAL's follow ups are so limited I'm not sure if her PAL throw is actually better (it's close). But I think that's also irrelevant in some ways (the question of which is better). I would still prefer the PAL throw because it behaves consistently (which is basically Shek's flavour as a top tier in Melee), it can be developed and fleshed out if it's a decent move (which it is), and it gives a more appropriate level of control to the comboing player (or at least in my eyes, but this kind of thing is largely subjective anyway). Thrusting the punish game into coin tosses just introduces too much randomness. And, again, if she's seriously a good character deep down then people will learn to react to the throw (like they've done in Melee) and those tools will no longer avail her much at all. It's happened before."

 

[leafbarrett]

Am I setting myself up for failure and disappointment by trying to design a character to the standards of P:M without knowing how competitive play works and not having the coding knowledge of the P:M team?