MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
On a brighter note, standardtoaster and I will possibly be streaming sometime in the near future. YoshQ is also a possible guest on the stream.
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Project M Social Thread
- Thread starter Project M
- Start date
- Status
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
Oh thats pretty cool....lol who is YoshQ?
MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
Yoshq is a brawl luigi main that also lives in eau Claire. He also plays falco in melee though. We usually only have me, standardtoaster, and our dad on stream. I'm going to try and get yoshq and his friend Geko and / or libertyernie to also be on stream sometime.
Onomanic
Heaven Piercer
You guys should lower your quality! It's more universally computer friendly!
....
I'll catch it on my other computer.
....
I'll catch it on my other computer.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Not exactly.
The loser of the previous match gets the opportunity to pick a stage.
The winner of the previous match then gets to pick their character.
The loser of the previous match then gets to pick their character.
This is done so that while the losing player does get an advantage with his counterpick, he doesn't necessarily get to stack both character advantage AND stage advantage against his opponent.
How much of an advantage a person should get for their counterpick is kind of a subjective issue, but over time smash tournaments have settled on this counterpicking format (since stages can play such a large roll in matchups).
Evilagram
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2007
- Messages
- 420
That does not mean that I will stop dropping in here asking for status reports. Sorry.
I R MarF
Smash Ace
I understand that there have been many advances in Project:M to make it play more like Melee, but has there been any research into trying to figure out why P:M matches take longer?
Spoon~
Smash Ace
In the current demo we still have brawl DI. Sticky techs play a role as does the longer ledge grabs.
MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
And lower ledge occupancy.
Jiangjunizzy
Smash Lord
you mean longer than an 8 min jiggs vs young link match?
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
get ****in *****
Yeh, sticky techs, ledge occupancy, backwards ledge grabs in helpless fall state, and the fact that not everyone uses the top tiers over and over...In the current demo we still have brawl DI. Sticky techs play a role as does the longer ledge grabs.
Go watch the genesis vids... they're some pretty damn short ones in there where the players were doing a good job with gimps and landing sweet combos into kill moves.
ninja'd..
oh btw... most of the new characters and buffed melee characters dont kill at 80 like the melee top tiers.
Spoon~
Smash Ace
ValTroX
Smash Ace
Ledge ocupancy and ledge grab range.
FireBall Stars
Smash Ace
Answering again so it has more chances to be read.
The losers picks a stage
If the winner wants, he can change the character
After the Winner picks his character, the Loser can change his character as well.
I R MarF
Smash Ace
i was actually more or less referring to the current build than the demo, but with that aside, here is where I get confused:
The following video is a match in melee that I would consider slow paced. It is about 4 minutes and 30 seconds. When you watch it, you'll understand why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6pQsE6BCI4
The following matches are 4 minutes and 30 seconds or longer. You can easily tell that the players involved in them have substantially more understanding of the game then the one above. So why do they have similar lengths? I'd understand if these were occasional hiccups but I wouldn't write off P:M matches of these lengths completely uncommon (these 5 alone comprise around 15% of the genesis matches Jcaesar has uploaded so far, assuming i did my math right). So why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MpeUdJWFqE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIWQ6klr9Lw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEsIb52qTHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIzu59ELqck
http://www.youtube.com/user/JCaesar007#p/u/1/Q8cR5wxCsf0
The following video is a match in melee that I would consider slow paced. It is about 4 minutes and 30 seconds. When you watch it, you'll understand why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6pQsE6BCI4
The following matches are 4 minutes and 30 seconds or longer. You can easily tell that the players involved in them have substantially more understanding of the game then the one above. So why do they have similar lengths? I'd understand if these were occasional hiccups but I wouldn't write off P:M matches of these lengths completely uncommon (these 5 alone comprise around 15% of the genesis matches Jcaesar has uploaded so far, assuming i did my math right). So why?
Does it have something to do with ZSS and ROB?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MpeUdJWFqE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIWQ6klr9Lw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEsIb52qTHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIzu59ELqck
http://www.youtube.com/user/JCaesar007#p/u/1/Q8cR5wxCsf0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx49ot85IT4&feature=feedu
Bowser Character Demo Video ^
Also, I'm part of the Project M team now so all of my videos will also be uploaded to the ProjectMelee YT chan as well.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Zard's jab got changed to just Jab3?
Also, from the vids I didnt see his newly swapped tilts do too much...
Also, from the vids I didnt see his newly swapped tilts do too much...
FireBall Stars
Smash Ace
Project M is a work in progress, and currently a closed alpha. Most people don't exactly know, what they can do in the game yet, but when they have all that knowledge, the matches will probably become faster.
Also, match length is heavily character dependent, a match with some characters are usually fast since they're fast as hell or have moves that kill early or are incredible gimpers. With other characters, it may take a longer time.
It's also very match-up dependent as well.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
yeah over half of those matches included DK, Bowser, or ROB, heavy characters that are hard to kill/gimp. watch a melee match with Peach or Ganondorf in it, it'll most likely last longer than 4 minutes.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Actually, the only reason that "melee" matches are so short is that they often include a Fox or Falco, who both have extremely gimpable recoveries while also being absurd onstage. The less lopsided characters (Marth, Sheik, Ganon, ect) all tend to have longer matches, and then characters with good recoveries have EVEN LONGER matches.
The reason that PM matches seem to take longer is....they aren't playing the two most popular characters in melee tnat would lead to having short matches.
I feel like the Marth vs ZSS match would've been shorter if both players were more comfortable with their characters and the matchup in particular (not trying to say that their unskilled players or anything, I'm talking about how efficient they are with their characters, which is just a subset of overall skill).
And finally...matches will probably get shorter as people get better at edgeguarding and comboing with their characters. There's only so much good DI and recovering well can do to counteract this
The reason that PM matches seem to take longer is....they aren't playing the two most popular characters in melee tnat would lead to having short matches.
I feel like the Marth vs ZSS match would've been shorter if both players were more comfortable with their characters and the matchup in particular (not trying to say that their unskilled players or anything, I'm talking about how efficient they are with their characters, which is just a subset of overall skill).
And finally...matches will probably get shorter as people get better at edgeguarding and comboing with their characters. There's only so much good DI and recovering well can do to counteract this
I guess I should be more specific... They dont rack damage like peach gimp like shiek or kill like falco, fox, falcon, and marth
Giygacoal
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2011
- Messages
- 1,651
I could imagine that on more evasive/defensive characters like Ness and Sonic, but I find it hard to believe that the "strong" characters like Bowser, Link, and DK could be that weak (or ignored?).
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ganon is so awesome in P:M, <3. Better recovery and more mix-ups.. what more can I want? lol.
o-Serin-o
I think 56 nights crazy
Is landing detection still an issue as of right now?
Sinji
Smash Master
Bowsers beast. good stuff
MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
smash Your m0m
Smash Journeyman
sooo i havent been on the boards close to a yr now and im jus wonderin........is this almost done?
jalued
Smash Lord
I second that... its not as if every move has a few frames of super armour, and his crouch will just stop characters from camping him as much. Fox has super armour on his Upsmash... so why cant bowser?What's wrong with heavy armor?
MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
invincibility, not super armor . I know in melee he had invinc on his head during charging of usmash, and invinc on his legs/feet IIRC.
. I know in melee he had invinc on his head during charging of usmash, and invinc on his legs/feet IIRC.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
Fox only has invinc on his head for frames 1-9 in melee.
jalued
Smash Lord
He doesnt even really need them
anyway, around what percentages does bowsers heavy armour start to deteriorate?
Revven
FrankerZ
It depends on the move and not every move uses the same armor, there's like three types of armor going on for Bowser iirc and they're spread across his moves.
Tyrael64
Smash Journeyman
Project:M @ Genesis 2 Impressions!
Heya, folks. I just got back from flying out to CA for Genesis 2. Even though I traveled there to watch the Melee, once I began watching the P:M build in the corner, I was hooked. Dozens of new characters begged me to try them out, but I kept switching between Lucario (my main in Brawl) and Bowser (my tertiary in Melee). I kept coming back again and again and again over Saturday and Sunday, and at the end of Genesis I told JCaesar I would post my thoughts here on the forums, so that's what I'm doing.
Hoooooooo boy. P:M is all grown up! Where do I begin with this...
Firstly, I'll post some videos that were posted earlier. If you've seen these, great. If not, go watch them:
Lucario
Charizard
Random thoughts in no particular order:
-Lucario LOOKS broken and OP when you see him, and he practically BLEEDS raw potential, but he's really not that bad when compared to the utter shenanigans other characters can pull (Charizard's TERRIFYING aerial juggling abilities and vertical reach, Bowser's Super Armor UP THE ***, etc, etc)
-Charizard is a freaking MONSTER. His Fly ability gives him amazing amounts of vertical reach at shocking speeds. Simply put, staying ANYWHERE above Charizard's head is a dicey prospect now because he CAN and he WILL fly up and kick your ***.
-JCaesar plays one of the most ridiculous ROBs I've ever seen. I'm sure a large part of it is because he's a dev and he knows all the little tweaks and things that the new ROB can do, but it's pretty insane. His NAir is just as brutal as ever, his Bair is a fantastic spacing tool, his recovery is STILL nigh-unlimited, and he generally packs a pretty damn mean punch.
As a Lucario main, I spent most of my time with the little blue guy. His OHC combo system feels satisfying when I can get it to work, but incredibly frustrating outside of that. It's a really strange shift of mental gears to be made every time I get in close range. Instead of playing him like a jump-around-and-hit-people Smash character, he suddenly switches into a Street-Fighter-style combo character where I have to pay VERY precise attention to WHEN my moves are hitting him, plan out WHICH moves to hit with, hit the (rather frustratingly small) frame window for activating the OHC, then follow up the OHC'd move with a move that I already have to expect and OHC it, followed by another OHC, etc, etc. The amount of razorblade-precise inputs you make goes up exponentially the further you get into a combo. It's one thing trying to execute a combo that you practice over and over, but it's entirely something else to try to do it in the middle of a match where the opponent is trying to DI away from you and he's bouncing off walls and you need to keep him in rance long enough to keep OHCing him and such.....
Overall, Lucario's OHC system is VERY difficult to do for more than about 3 moves, in my experience. The most I could do was Jab-Jab-Jab-Ftilt-SideB, then a running Fair to follow up. Unfortunately, due to the vagaries of DI and percentages, it's hard to get that follow-up.
Other things seem flat-out impossible. For example, in the Lucario video, he goes Jab-Jab-Ftilt-Usmash-SideB-Nair. However, in actual execution, JCaesar told me that in order to make Usmash chain into SideB, I actually have to jump out of it before hitting the SideB. I'm sure jumping-out-of-a-move comes naturally to WDing Fox-maining maniacs, but my fingers aren't fast enough to keep up. HOWEVER, I literally only had 2 days to mess around with this system, and I'm pretty sure that this could turn into something DEVASTATING with enough devoted practice.
Since Lucario feels almost like a new character with all his changes, I'll go through and do a pseudo re-review of him.
Jab: The good old 1-2-3 combo was pretty decent in brawl as a get-out-of-my-face card, but now it's just a lead-in to worlds of PAIN. It rips off INCREDIBLY fast, and the fact that it cancels into just about ANYTHING makes it a move you'll be using very, very, VERY often for your combo openings.
Ftilt: A new move! :shock: Instead of just poking his hand out and making blue flames, he sort of does a turning twist with a diagonal slash. It's a VERY, VERY fast move that seems to work well as something to throw out if you need to hurriedly disrupt someone's move, or to fake them out. Since it cancels so QUICKLY, FTilt is almost a good option for psyching them into thinking you're attacking, then moving into a grab or something else. Very interesting, very useful in OHC combos.
Fsmash: Now that it isn't Aura-boosted, it isn't a Gigantic Blue Wave of Kill anymore, but it still has all of its old range and timing and GIGANTIC hitboxes, so it retains all of its Brawl utility as a spacer, a finisher, and even a ledgeguarder. Not much to report except that it's just as good as it ever was, and it was pretty great to begin with.
Dash Attack: Quite possibly the first new move / change most players will notice upon picking Lucario up in P:M for the first time. Instead of being a wimpy little kick, Lucario BOLTS forward in a sleeker, more steamlined kick that almost looks like a wannabe-FalconKick. It's VERY pretty and SHOCKINGLY fast. Because it's so fast, it has a LOT of range, often much more range than your opponents expect it to. Like the Jab, expect this to be used a LOT when you're starting up a OHC combo. Very fun, very satisfying, and a total blast. It goes a long way towards making Lucario feel like a lightning kung-fu fighter.
Dtilt: Again, not much changed from Brawl. Little leg-poke that sends people upwards. MIGHT be useful for popping people into the air for a SideB, but you have other options for that. It's a decent backup ledgeguarder, but Lucario now has a whole new (and much better IMO) way to guard ledges. More on that in a sec.
Utilt: Still, not much changed from Brawl. Starts out behind him(so it's good for getting people behind you without turning around), juggles well, combos into itself, all that jazz. I haven't tried OHCing Utilt into itself, though. I have the sneaking suspicion that that wouldn't be allowed because it could let off a ******** chain of UtiltUtiltUtiltUtiltUtilt for like 50% damage if you're good with timing it.
Dsmash: Double-handed BAM out to both sides like regular Brawl. Pretty fun, but as a Lucario main I've always felt that it comes out too slowly to be useful when compared to Fox/Falco/Mario/Marth's Dsmashes. Their Dsmashes are great instant-deploy moves for knocking people around, but Lucario has a GAZILLION years of winding up before he lets it loose. Recommend that it be sped up a bit, since Lucario seems to be much more focused around speed.
Usmash:
DownB: The old Double Team returns with a vengeance! The main change is that it has been DRASTICALLY cut down in time: in windup, execution AND cooldown. When you DownB, he goes into the same old pose from Brawl, but if nobody hits you, you don't stand there for a million years with your *** hanging out for people to pound it. Instead, you recover INSANELY fast. Furthermore, when someone DOES hit you, Lucario disappears and reappears and kicks them with the same animation as before, but unlike vanilla Brawl, he doesn't sail in from a million miles away off to the side. Instead, he appears RIGHT ON TOP OF the other person, kicks their ****, and he's INSTANTLY ready to kick some more ***. The almost-complete lack fo cooldown is terrifying because it opens up so many options. It's almost fast enough to throw out in the middle of getting pounded. It is DAMN good, and its upgraded speed makes it FANTASTIC for edgeguarding, especially versus Space Animals.
SideB: Bah. I HAD a huge write-up about it, but then I copied and pasted something else, and Windows 7 is too ******** to remember more than one thing in your clipboard at a time.
Suffice to say that the animation of Lucario whirling people around and SLAMMING them towards the ground is awesome enough that it elicits a triumphant "BOOM!" from me and an incredulous "What the ****? Luario's broken!" from my opponents. JCaesar also told me that it acts as a meteorspike, which is great! However, gameplay-wise, it suffers from the fact that it has ENORMOUS cool-down, especially in the air. It has so much cooldown, in fact, that trying to use it AS a meteor spike will get you killed more often than not because you simply fall SO FAST in P:M, yet his recovery animation is still just as slow as Brawl. It's VERY VERY VERY high risk for the reward of a possible kill...yet the Space Animals have their own spike maneuvers (Falco's Dair, Fox's shine) that offer comparatively little risk for the same reward. Personally, I'd recommend that the SideB's cooldown be cut down DRASTICALLY, the same way DownB's was.
B: One of his old legacies from Brawl, and the single (only?) move that set off the whole "OMG MEWTWO = LUCARIO" snafu in the eyes of non-LucarioMainers. It's back, and since it no longer grows bigger with AuraBoost, it feels VERY different. Like Lucario's SideB, it suffers from having the same animation speed as Brawl when everyone is moving at Melee speeds. Furthermore, a small change seems to have been made to the way it works: Instead of just tapping B to let it charge, you now have to HOLD B. A fully-charged Shadow Ball CAN be shield-canceled to hold the charge like in old Brawl, but without the AuraBoost it's almost not worth it. Instead of being a killmove, Lucario's B has almost been limited to a minor harassment projectile like Falco's lasers. However, the balls move much too slowly for that, so I quickly found myself simply ignoring this move when I could be using all that time to do more productive things with the rest of his moveset.
UpB: Again, same animation as Brawl, but this time with the added bonus of damage! Furthermore, it's so FAST that it often takes people by surprise, and can have the benefit of moving your opponent quite a long ways around the stage if you feel like controlling them that way. Additionally, once Lucario gets his Super Meter up , he can press A to cancel his UpB at any time and INSTANTLY be in a neutral position, ready to strike with anything he wants to. It's VERY nice, and it CAN and WILL save your life when you're trying to recover.
Fair: Much like SideB, this move has kept its Brawl speed while the rest of the game has gotten sped up to Melee style. This means that stuff like this...
...doesn't work anymore. It causes enough knockback now that it's only really usable once, but it doesn't cause quite enough knockback to be a worthy move as an approach or a finisher or really much of anything. I struggled to find a utility for it while I was playing and I couldn't come up with much except as a chaser after a grounded SideB. And even then, Lucario now has a much better option in the form of...
Nair:
This thing could quite possibly be Lucario's best aerial. It comes out instantly, acts like a sex-kick (stays out for a long time, maintaining consistent damage and knockback for the entire duration), has good range and L-cancels easily. This thing is amazing. In any situation when you would use a Fair, a Nair can almost always be substituted for better results.
Bair: No changes I could detect. Comes out slightly faster (maybe has a Bowser-style pseudo-spike?), good ranging tool, not much else to say.
Uair: Good juggler, great killer at high percentages. Not much changed from Brawl save for a standardized damage/knockback. Seems to have fairly high damage, but I didn't get a chance to test that more extensively.
Dair: In old Brawl, this was Lucario's bread and butter. It halted his movement and made him tapdance a doublestomp of BLUE FIERY DEATH on people's heads. It was a killer, it was a spacer, it was a delayer, it was all that and so much more. Now, however, it's.....not. The main change is that it simply doesn't change his downwards momentum anymore. I can't seem to make it be fast-fall'd, and it still keeps its obscenely large hitboxes, but the simple fact of it no longer being a movement-stopper removes a lot of its utility. However, I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. The new Lucario is a quick-hitting kung-fu beatdown specialist, not a floaty pseudo-WoPer like he was in old Brawl.
EDIT: Oh, I woke up and can't believe I forgot to include this!
Lucario's Super Meter
I haven't been able to work out the PRECISE mechanics for this yet. Some people say that it only activates upon taking a certain amount of damage, but other times I've seen it activate in the middle of a match for no apparent reason. In either case, after SOME condition is met, Lucario's hands begin glowing with red fire. As far as I've been able to tell upon experimentation, this opens up two new moves for Lucario's disposal. The first is the ability to cancel his UpB with the A button and revert to the neutral stance, ready to use another move. This can easily save your life when recovering...but it can also KILL you. If you UpB towards the ledge, then A-cancel it as you hit the ledge...you don't grab on, and you fall helplessly to your doom, screaming in furious confusion. It definitely pissed me off for a while before I simply remembered not to do it.
The second thing that it opens up is
This thing behaves REALLY weirdly. It comes out fast (and also has a hitbox WHILE being summoned, natch!), yet it moves INCREDIBLY slowly. Like, REEEAAALLLYYY slow. so slowly that you can run ahead of it and throw people back into it. Or you can walk forward and use it as a gigantic shield to give yourself some breathing room. Or you can set it off as an instant JUMP HERE AND DIE zoning tool to cut off your opponent's mobility options. In teams, it's just about as satisfying as a Falcon Punch if you can rip it off on someone who's being grabbed by your buddy.
It's probably about as powerful AS a Falcon Punch, too! I never got the chance to test it extensively enough to measure how much damage it does, but it's a LOT. It's by FAR Lucario's deadliest and largest move, and a VERY VERY welcome addition to his moveset, since the rest of his moves are DECENT, but don't have the killing OOMPH of a GanonStomp or a Falcon Punch or a Marth Tip. This gives Lucario the killing ability to stand alongside the best, and it's a VERY welcome addition. Furthermore, a savvy opponent will recognize the red fire glow that signals a prepared Spirit Bomb, and this can probably be used for all KINDS of fakeout mindgames.
Wow, jeez, is it really 1:30am already? Sorry, I wanted to jot all this stuff down before I forgot it.
I hope this helps the fans get excited for P:M, and I hope it gives the devs some useful feedback. JCaesar, you were an absolute gentleman, very patient and informative while refraining from using your Secret Dev Knowledge to smack us P:M noobs with a beatstick. It was a true pleasure playing with you, and I'd be hapy to help wth anything else you might want/need.
I'm also open to questions from other fans or Lucario fans if you guys have them.
Stay Smashing, my friends!
Heya, folks. I just got back from flying out to CA for Genesis 2. Even though I traveled there to watch the Melee, once I began watching the P:M build in the corner, I was hooked. Dozens of new characters begged me to try them out, but I kept switching between Lucario (my main in Brawl) and Bowser (my tertiary in Melee). I kept coming back again and again and again over Saturday and Sunday, and at the end of Genesis I told JCaesar I would post my thoughts here on the forums, so that's what I'm doing.
Hoooooooo boy. P:M is all grown up! Where do I begin with this...
Firstly, I'll post some videos that were posted earlier. If you've seen these, great. If not, go watch them:
Lucario
Charizard
Random thoughts in no particular order:
-Lucario LOOKS broken and OP when you see him, and he practically BLEEDS raw potential, but he's really not that bad when compared to the utter shenanigans other characters can pull (Charizard's TERRIFYING aerial juggling abilities and vertical reach, Bowser's Super Armor UP THE ***, etc, etc)
-Charizard is a freaking MONSTER. His Fly ability gives him amazing amounts of vertical reach at shocking speeds. Simply put, staying ANYWHERE above Charizard's head is a dicey prospect now because he CAN and he WILL fly up and kick your ***.
-JCaesar plays one of the most ridiculous ROBs I've ever seen. I'm sure a large part of it is because he's a dev and he knows all the little tweaks and things that the new ROB can do, but it's pretty insane. His NAir is just as brutal as ever, his Bair is a fantastic spacing tool, his recovery is STILL nigh-unlimited, and he generally packs a pretty damn mean punch.
As a Lucario main, I spent most of my time with the little blue guy. His OHC combo system feels satisfying when I can get it to work, but incredibly frustrating outside of that. It's a really strange shift of mental gears to be made every time I get in close range. Instead of playing him like a jump-around-and-hit-people Smash character, he suddenly switches into a Street-Fighter-style combo character where I have to pay VERY precise attention to WHEN my moves are hitting him, plan out WHICH moves to hit with, hit the (rather frustratingly small) frame window for activating the OHC, then follow up the OHC'd move with a move that I already have to expect and OHC it, followed by another OHC, etc, etc. The amount of razorblade-precise inputs you make goes up exponentially the further you get into a combo. It's one thing trying to execute a combo that you practice over and over, but it's entirely something else to try to do it in the middle of a match where the opponent is trying to DI away from you and he's bouncing off walls and you need to keep him in rance long enough to keep OHCing him and such.....
Overall, Lucario's OHC system is VERY difficult to do for more than about 3 moves, in my experience. The most I could do was Jab-Jab-Jab-Ftilt-SideB, then a running Fair to follow up. Unfortunately, due to the vagaries of DI and percentages, it's hard to get that follow-up.
Other things seem flat-out impossible. For example, in the Lucario video, he goes Jab-Jab-Ftilt-Usmash-SideB-Nair. However, in actual execution, JCaesar told me that in order to make Usmash chain into SideB, I actually have to jump out of it before hitting the SideB. I'm sure jumping-out-of-a-move comes naturally to WDing Fox-maining maniacs, but my fingers aren't fast enough to keep up. HOWEVER, I literally only had 2 days to mess around with this system, and I'm pretty sure that this could turn into something DEVASTATING with enough devoted practice.
Since Lucario feels almost like a new character with all his changes, I'll go through and do a pseudo re-review of him.
Jab: The good old 1-2-3 combo was pretty decent in brawl as a get-out-of-my-face card, but now it's just a lead-in to worlds of PAIN. It rips off INCREDIBLY fast, and the fact that it cancels into just about ANYTHING makes it a move you'll be using very, very, VERY often for your combo openings.
Ftilt: A new move! :shock: Instead of just poking his hand out and making blue flames, he sort of does a turning twist with a diagonal slash. It's a VERY, VERY fast move that seems to work well as something to throw out if you need to hurriedly disrupt someone's move, or to fake them out. Since it cancels so QUICKLY, FTilt is almost a good option for psyching them into thinking you're attacking, then moving into a grab or something else. Very interesting, very useful in OHC combos.
Fsmash: Now that it isn't Aura-boosted, it isn't a Gigantic Blue Wave of Kill anymore, but it still has all of its old range and timing and GIGANTIC hitboxes, so it retains all of its Brawl utility as a spacer, a finisher, and even a ledgeguarder. Not much to report except that it's just as good as it ever was, and it was pretty great to begin with.
Dash Attack: Quite possibly the first new move / change most players will notice upon picking Lucario up in P:M for the first time. Instead of being a wimpy little kick, Lucario BOLTS forward in a sleeker, more steamlined kick that almost looks like a wannabe-FalconKick. It's VERY pretty and SHOCKINGLY fast. Because it's so fast, it has a LOT of range, often much more range than your opponents expect it to. Like the Jab, expect this to be used a LOT when you're starting up a OHC combo. Very fun, very satisfying, and a total blast. It goes a long way towards making Lucario feel like a lightning kung-fu fighter.
Dtilt: Again, not much changed from Brawl. Little leg-poke that sends people upwards. MIGHT be useful for popping people into the air for a SideB, but you have other options for that. It's a decent backup ledgeguarder, but Lucario now has a whole new (and much better IMO) way to guard ledges. More on that in a sec.
Utilt: Still, not much changed from Brawl. Starts out behind him(so it's good for getting people behind you without turning around), juggles well, combos into itself, all that jazz. I haven't tried OHCing Utilt into itself, though. I have the sneaking suspicion that that wouldn't be allowed because it could let off a ******** chain of UtiltUtiltUtiltUtiltUtilt for like 50% damage if you're good with timing it.
Dsmash: Double-handed BAM out to both sides like regular Brawl. Pretty fun, but as a Lucario main I've always felt that it comes out too slowly to be useful when compared to Fox/Falco/Mario/Marth's Dsmashes. Their Dsmashes are great instant-deploy moves for knocking people around, but Lucario has a GAZILLION years of winding up before he lets it loose. Recommend that it be sped up a bit, since Lucario seems to be much more focused around speed.
Usmash:
DownB: The old Double Team returns with a vengeance! The main change is that it has been DRASTICALLY cut down in time: in windup, execution AND cooldown. When you DownB, he goes into the same old pose from Brawl, but if nobody hits you, you don't stand there for a million years with your *** hanging out for people to pound it. Instead, you recover INSANELY fast. Furthermore, when someone DOES hit you, Lucario disappears and reappears and kicks them with the same animation as before, but unlike vanilla Brawl, he doesn't sail in from a million miles away off to the side. Instead, he appears RIGHT ON TOP OF the other person, kicks their ****, and he's INSTANTLY ready to kick some more ***. The almost-complete lack fo cooldown is terrifying because it opens up so many options. It's almost fast enough to throw out in the middle of getting pounded. It is DAMN good, and its upgraded speed makes it FANTASTIC for edgeguarding, especially versus Space Animals.
SideB: Bah. I HAD a huge write-up about it, but then I copied and pasted something else, and Windows 7 is too ******** to remember more than one thing in your clipboard at a time.
Suffice to say that the animation of Lucario whirling people around and SLAMMING them towards the ground is awesome enough that it elicits a triumphant "BOOM!" from me and an incredulous "What the ****? Luario's broken!" from my opponents. JCaesar also told me that it acts as a meteorspike, which is great! However, gameplay-wise, it suffers from the fact that it has ENORMOUS cool-down, especially in the air. It has so much cooldown, in fact, that trying to use it AS a meteor spike will get you killed more often than not because you simply fall SO FAST in P:M, yet his recovery animation is still just as slow as Brawl. It's VERY VERY VERY high risk for the reward of a possible kill...yet the Space Animals have their own spike maneuvers (Falco's Dair, Fox's shine) that offer comparatively little risk for the same reward. Personally, I'd recommend that the SideB's cooldown be cut down DRASTICALLY, the same way DownB's was.
B: One of his old legacies from Brawl, and the single (only?) move that set off the whole "OMG MEWTWO = LUCARIO" snafu in the eyes of non-LucarioMainers. It's back, and since it no longer grows bigger with AuraBoost, it feels VERY different. Like Lucario's SideB, it suffers from having the same animation speed as Brawl when everyone is moving at Melee speeds. Furthermore, a small change seems to have been made to the way it works: Instead of just tapping B to let it charge, you now have to HOLD B. A fully-charged Shadow Ball CAN be shield-canceled to hold the charge like in old Brawl, but without the AuraBoost it's almost not worth it. Instead of being a killmove, Lucario's B has almost been limited to a minor harassment projectile like Falco's lasers. However, the balls move much too slowly for that, so I quickly found myself simply ignoring this move when I could be using all that time to do more productive things with the rest of his moveset.
UpB: Again, same animation as Brawl, but this time with the added bonus of damage! Furthermore, it's so FAST that it often takes people by surprise, and can have the benefit of moving your opponent quite a long ways around the stage if you feel like controlling them that way. Additionally, once Lucario gets his Super Meter up , he can press A to cancel his UpB at any time and INSTANTLY be in a neutral position, ready to strike with anything he wants to. It's VERY nice, and it CAN and WILL save your life when you're trying to recover.
Fair: Much like SideB, this move has kept its Brawl speed while the rest of the game has gotten sped up to Melee style. This means that stuff like this...
...doesn't work anymore. It causes enough knockback now that it's only really usable once, but it doesn't cause quite enough knockback to be a worthy move as an approach or a finisher or really much of anything. I struggled to find a utility for it while I was playing and I couldn't come up with much except as a chaser after a grounded SideB. And even then, Lucario now has a much better option in the form of...
Nair:
This thing could quite possibly be Lucario's best aerial. It comes out instantly, acts like a sex-kick (stays out for a long time, maintaining consistent damage and knockback for the entire duration), has good range and L-cancels easily. This thing is amazing. In any situation when you would use a Fair, a Nair can almost always be substituted for better results.
Bair: No changes I could detect. Comes out slightly faster (maybe has a Bowser-style pseudo-spike?), good ranging tool, not much else to say.
Uair: Good juggler, great killer at high percentages. Not much changed from Brawl save for a standardized damage/knockback. Seems to have fairly high damage, but I didn't get a chance to test that more extensively.
Dair: In old Brawl, this was Lucario's bread and butter. It halted his movement and made him tapdance a doublestomp of BLUE FIERY DEATH on people's heads. It was a killer, it was a spacer, it was a delayer, it was all that and so much more. Now, however, it's.....not. The main change is that it simply doesn't change his downwards momentum anymore. I can't seem to make it be fast-fall'd, and it still keeps its obscenely large hitboxes, but the simple fact of it no longer being a movement-stopper removes a lot of its utility. However, I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. The new Lucario is a quick-hitting kung-fu beatdown specialist, not a floaty pseudo-WoPer like he was in old Brawl.
EDIT: Oh, I woke up and can't believe I forgot to include this!
Lucario's Super Meter
I haven't been able to work out the PRECISE mechanics for this yet. Some people say that it only activates upon taking a certain amount of damage, but other times I've seen it activate in the middle of a match for no apparent reason. In either case, after SOME condition is met, Lucario's hands begin glowing with red fire. As far as I've been able to tell upon experimentation, this opens up two new moves for Lucario's disposal. The first is the ability to cancel his UpB with the A button and revert to the neutral stance, ready to use another move. This can easily save your life when recovering...but it can also KILL you. If you UpB towards the ledge, then A-cancel it as you hit the ledge...you don't grab on, and you fall helplessly to your doom, screaming in furious confusion. It definitely pissed me off for a while before I simply remembered not to do it.
The second thing that it opens up is
This thing behaves REALLY weirdly. It comes out fast (and also has a hitbox WHILE being summoned, natch!), yet it moves INCREDIBLY slowly. Like, REEEAAALLLYYY slow. so slowly that you can run ahead of it and throw people back into it. Or you can walk forward and use it as a gigantic shield to give yourself some breathing room. Or you can set it off as an instant JUMP HERE AND DIE zoning tool to cut off your opponent's mobility options. In teams, it's just about as satisfying as a Falcon Punch if you can rip it off on someone who's being grabbed by your buddy.
It's probably about as powerful AS a Falcon Punch, too! I never got the chance to test it extensively enough to measure how much damage it does, but it's a LOT. It's by FAR Lucario's deadliest and largest move, and a VERY VERY welcome addition to his moveset, since the rest of his moves are DECENT, but don't have the killing OOMPH of a GanonStomp or a Falcon Punch or a Marth Tip. This gives Lucario the killing ability to stand alongside the best, and it's a VERY welcome addition. Furthermore, a savvy opponent will recognize the red fire glow that signals a prepared Spirit Bomb, and this can probably be used for all KINDS of fakeout mindgames.
Wow, jeez, is it really 1:30am already? Sorry, I wanted to jot all this stuff down before I forgot it.
I hope this helps the fans get excited for P:M, and I hope it gives the devs some useful feedback. JCaesar, you were an absolute gentleman, very patient and informative while refraining from using your Secret Dev Knowledge to smack us P:M noobs with a beatstick. It was a true pleasure playing with you, and I'd be hapy to help wth anything else you might want/need.
I'm also open to questions from other fans or Lucario fans if you guys have them.
Stay Smashing, my friends!
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
this isn't true, you can do it directly during the linking hits, its pretty trivial to perform and I do it all the time
I suggest you re-read the OHC chart at the end to learn the rules following it.
When you whiff, yes it has a lot of endlag. However, the air throw downwards actually has a temporary momentum kill so that you hover during the animation. It has very little falling so I am confused by this in that it pretty much is completely safe to use if it connects. Additionally, when used out of Shoryuken, it sets up incredibly well for tech chases with dair, etc.
didn't notice it turns you around now like marths bair, eh? Pretty big change there lol
it has less momentum than vbrawl, but still some momentum properties.
Glad you were excited bylucario. Sounds like you have a lot to learn as he has an incredibly high learning curve. I can consistently get strings of around 4+ moves on characters, and a lot of it is learning the match ups to get an understanding of their weights and gravities to decide if I should use dtilt vs utilt for launching, use shoryuken vs dsmash, etcetc. He is hard to use for a reason :D
Sharky
Smash Master
bringing up something I didn't get to after CoT5 about yoshi: every now and then when I'd try to do an rising aerial (iirc this usually happened from the ledge) Yoshi would freeze in what looked like a standing pose rather than do the aerial. Nobody there seemed to know what it was. Please fix?
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Boozer 2 cute.
Heh I rarely use Bowser but the P:M Bowser looks ****ing AWESOME.
Heh I rarely use Bowser but the P:M Bowser looks ****ing AWESOME.
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