Project M Social Thread

[GHNeko]

@ The Developers

I think you guys should change the name of the level 6 AI from "Strong" to "Strong Bad" =D

YOU'RE SO NICE TO HIM.

 

[Master WGS]

Does G&W have any good space controlling options? I know someone said bacon, but that goes in random directions, so that's not really "control."

Also having serious trouble killing with him. I know his fsmash is pretty beast, but that's hard as hell to kill anyone with.

EDIT: Video evidence would be nice as well. Good G&W stuff by/against good players would probably be really useful.

 

[Zef]

dtilt parachute
offstage parachute
9
fair
dair
usmash

 

[MonkUnit]

Does G&W have any good space controlling options? I know someone said bacon, but that goes in random directions, so that's not really "control."

Also having serious trouble killing him. I know his fsmash is pretty beast, but that's hard as hell to kill anyone with.

try nair, usmash, hammer, etc

 

[CORY]

i thought bacon came out in a predetermined order now?

 

[I R MarF]

Quick question for the devs:

I just discovered that its possible to buffer shorthops using a combination of the c-stick and control-stick. By pressing down on the c-stick right before jumping, my character is forced to do a shorthop, regardless of the strength/quickness of my control-stick press (i.e., fullhop comes out 0% of the time). i was wondering if this is something Project M added to the game, or something that was around in Brawl/Melee (don't remember it being in either.).

Yes, it is a code that is in Project M.

Interesting... but what is the point of adding this technique? To make things easier? That seems strange... but perhaps I am only a skeptic.

 

[Shadic]

will you guys fix lylat cruises and temple:m's ledges?

What's wrong with Temple:M's ledges?

 

[crush]

you get stuck under them really easily with some characters

 

[Master WGS]

i thought bacon came out in a predetermined order now?

Can I get a confirmation on this?

 

[Revven]

Does G&W have any good space controlling options? I know someone said bacon, but that goes in random directions, so that's not really "control."

Also having serious trouble killing with him. I know his fsmash is pretty beast, but that's hard as hell to kill anyone with.

EDIT: Video evidence would be nice as well. Good G&W stuff by/against good players would probably be really useful.

Dsmash is a kill move unlike in Melee and is really quick. Try it out.

And no bacon has not been changed to have pre-determined order or angle.

 

[CORY]

ah, good to know. i wonder where i got that in my head, now ;x

 

[RK9]

Why is the site down, I want to DL Project Melee..?

 

[Strong Badam]

@ The Developers

I think you guys should change the name of the level 6 AI from "Strong" to "Strong Bad" =D

:|
adding lvl 20 CPU "Strong Bad"

Interesting... but what is the point of adding this technique? To make things easier? That seems strange... but perhaps I am only a skeptic.

Holding C-stick up buffers a jump in Melee. In project M, the only way to replicate this is by C-stick any direction + Joystick up. It doesn't make things easier, really.

 

[Revven]

Why is the site down, I want to DL Project Melee..?

It's down for unknown reasons people, Dantarion is not online to fix it. We're sorry for the inconvenience.

 

[Zef]

na you can be level 6

 

[MonkUnit]

Why is the site down, I want to DL Project Melee..?

The site is currently down but you can download Project M from these mirrors.
http://soniccagedome.com/pm/ or http://siriusuplink.com/pm/

 

[Ecks]

:|
adding lvl 20 CPU "Strong Bad".

lvl 20 cpu should be called "isai". the game automatically changes to "project 64" and the ai then proceeds to **** you.

 

[Akuma2120]

Alright, I never knew you could do this so could someone tell me, how do you get out of tumble without jumping or doing an attack, and how do you get up from an edge slowly, whenever I do it my character gets up to fast so I can't hog the ledge right

 

[Chsal]

Spin control stick to get out of tumble.

Get up at >100% for slow getup.

(Or do you mean roll? (Shield Button) Which makes the ledge ungrabbable by the opponent for 9001 frames?)

 

[GP&B]

Only in Melee. In Brawl, the occupancy frames were cut down a lot. The developers plan to put the frames at a happy medium so it isn't stupid like Melee but not ridiculously small in Brawl.

 

[Archangel]

Only in Melee. In Brawl, the occupancy frames were cut down a lot. The developers plan to put the frames at a happy medium so it isn't stupid like Melee but not ridiculously small in Brawl.

I wouldn't exactly say it's stupid in Melee. Only in some cases does it seem that way. It's kinda stupid in brawls time though. you can practically grab the ledge at the same time.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

At the end of the day, both ledge occupacy values leave me scratching my head.

I hope this value gets found and changed soon.

 

[Ulevo]

Neither game took required much skill involving ledges. Brawls ledges spoon fed you easy recoveries that were practically impossible to edge guard, and Melee's ledges were absolutely unforgiving if you got knocked off stage with no double jump. Hence why a nice medium would be nice.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sheik is broken in this game.

 

[slimpyman]

a website or network with 99.99999 percent uptime is attainable. its unlikely though ;-)

haha dude, i dont know but it seems sometimes i have a hard *** time with falco (as mario)
really, if i land a few side smashes, i usually win. but if i cant land them, i lose. does falcos d-air hitbox hit till the very end of the animation?

 

[leelue]

Yes. Falcos Dair hits the whole time. In other words, he enjoys the company of males.

 

[I R MarF]

you get stuck under them really easily with some characters

I think people are taking too much advantage of the devs abilities to change aspects of the game. Everyone will complain about the slightest flaw as if they expect everything to be perfect.

In Melee, Battlefield had those huge lips at its base that everyone complained about... yet it was a neutral and most dealt with it. Now we are complaining about Lylat Cruise (A CP, which means you aren't even forced to play it Round 1) for having a similar issue?

CP's are necessary because of their contribution to the meta game; they DO favor certain characters much more than others. This adds a whole layer of strategy even before the match begins. For instance, you would pick a stage like Lylat Cruise against spacies because it nullifies their ability to ride wall for sweetspots which makes edge guarding/hogging easier.

Of course, there will be some stages that produce seemingly unbalanced MUs. Look at Snake and Jiggs. Statistically speaking, the MU favors Jiggs her edge game counters Snake's easily intercepted up-b, her high mobility allows her to avoid traps and projectiles with ease, and she can combo the heavy Snake likes its her job. (Definitely a 55/45 MU... could be 60/40)

What will the MU be like on Metal Cavern? I would say that it'd become almost unwinnable for Snake if the two are even players. The stage is too small for camping, the terrain doesn't really affect the entirely air movement based Jiggs, and Jiggs already has an advantage.

Well, now I'm just rambling. Nonetheless, it makes for an interesting discussion.

 

[Akuma2120]

Spin control stick to get out of tumble.

Get up at >100% for slow getup.

(Or do you mean roll? (Shield Button) Which makes the ledge ungrabbable by the opponent for 9001 frames?)

Thanks, and I just meant it taking longer for you to get up from the ledge, thinking about it, it must be over 100%


And does Link's upair have the same hitboxes from melee? I just noticed how stupidly big they were, or is this a landing detection issue? Short hop upair just doesn't work like in melee

 

[Vigilante]

The thing we are facing right now is a completely new game. While the game tends to resemble melee in many aspects, new characters, stages and adjustments change how the game is played. Balanced was also reviewed. So in a sense, while the devs do want to change the balance of the game, there are things they cannot know in advance. Say, for example, that Wolf would seem "okay" at first, but poeple would discover strategies with him that would move him from high to top, that could theoretically happen. Heck, Fox used to be "upper", and Falco used to just be "high". Stage legality and tiers are constantly being readjusted in light of new information. Even something as seemingly minor as ledge occupancy can upset the balance.

Of course, this is not stuff we can decide before the final version, though we can have a demo stage-legality system for the time being.

And I'm also fine with counterpicks. It's a good argument against those poeple who think Melee tourneys are "Fox only, no items, Final destination. (They got 2/3 of it wrong).

 

[Fera]

I really don't know if anyone said this before or if it's intended to be this way but I was playing Lucas vs a G&W cpu in Castle Siege, during the transform from form 2 to form 3 I was hit by a Lvl9 sideB, and didn't die. I tought hammer 9 should be insta-kill unless tech'd. Is it suposed to be survivable if DIed?

 

[JCaesar]

Yes, G&W's 9 hammer is survivable if your % is low enough and the stage is large enough.

 

[Akuma2120]

Also, is the problem where if you running right and say you hit down on the C-stick but you hit it slightly to left so your character immediately does a dash attack backwards, is that fixed in the patch, because it screws me up so much I never use Link's dash attack because of it

 

[I R MarF]

QUESTION

Is it just me... or is Jiggs's sing a lot better than Melee? I thought top tiers weren't getting buffs?

 

[UltiMario]

It isn't just you, from what I recall, Sing has a Range boost as well as an increase in the sleep duration.

The high tiers seem to be getting buffs on their basically useless moves, such as the Falcon Kick, which IIRC got some buff to make it safer, can't recall the actual buff for the life of me though.

 

[Vigilante]

For the 9 hammer, even in Melee, you could survive it in Temple and Rainbow Cruise. Hell, you could survive it in Final Destination in Brawl (Because it was huge).

It doesn't happen a lot, since you got to be low percentage and at the edge of a stage, aiming in the direction you don't want to be aiming at in the first place.

 

[Revven]

QUESTION

Is it just me... or is Jiggs's sing a lot better than Melee? I thought top tiers weren't getting buffs?

Here's the skinny:

Characters in the demo are not completely done due to time constraints (however that doesn't mean they weren't close to done because they are). Anything that's questionable for top tiers to you is likely already addressed in the upcoming patch. So please, calm down, relax, and wait for the patch.

It's oversights like this that define why the characters are said to be "close to done".

 

[Akuma2120]

Can people not see my posts or am I just being ignored? -_-

 

[I R MarF]

It isn't just you, from what I recall, Sing has a Range boost as well as an increase in the sleep duration.

The high tiers seem to be getting buffs on their basically useless moves, such as the Falcon Kick, which IIRC got some buff to make it safer, can't recall the actual buff for the life of me though.

I get Facon's recovery buffs mostly because he has MU problems with the rest of the high/top tier cast and he is only high tier himself.

But Jigglypuff? She should remain completely untouched along with Fox, Falco, Marth and Shiek. Any character who has made top tier has already proved that they are 100% viable choices in competitive play; making changes unecessary. And if you were to add buffs to any of them, Jiggs/Shiek are the worst choices.

Reasons:

Jiggs's "flaws"

1. She is light: She dies easier from most characters. That is obvious.

2. Sheild break OHKO: She shouldn't abuse using shield against pressure fiends and attacks that take a lot of a shield down (such as Marth's neutral b) but in reality, this flaw is a nitpick. If you break an opponents shield and punish correctly they are usally dead anyway. And secondly, Jiggs isn't on the ground a lot and her main defense is weaving.

3. No projectile: Self explanatory... but the flaw doesn't really stick out that much. She can still be very campy even without one and she can fight against projectiles easily with a low crouch/high mobility.

Jiggs's "pros"

1. One bad MU (Fox 55:45). What an ouch!

2. She is light: Yep, her lightness is a gift and a curse just like Fox and Falco's fallspeed. She can't be comboed at certain percents. She is also immune to conventional chain grabs and waveshines.

3. Fastest airspeed: She has ridiculous mobility. Allows her to weave, escape combos, and traverse quite the distance in one SH

4. Amazing Recovery: With all the jumps, and air speed in the world she is practically ungimpable.

5. Amazing combo and edge game: She doesn't really have a bad aerial, or throw and can combo into one of the most potent and fastest kill moves in the series (rest). As well as some of the best gimps.

6. Minimal risk character: Jiggs can do things that would normally kill the entire cast. Her off stage game is something that Falco has wet dreams about and all of her (important) attacks are low lag and difficult to punish. The only risk she has is if she misses a rest.

7. Least amount of tech skill required: It is pretty much agreed that you don't need tech skill to be good with Jiggs. Wavedashing isn't essential, and L-cancelling is important but not as important as other characters since she retreats before she can get punished anyway.

Verdict: Call me a hater but I think Jiggs is the most unbalanced character in melee. (Statisically speaking) In no way does her pros and cons balance eachother out. She requires little devotion to be good with when compared to characters such as Fox or Falco (who deserve to be top) And she is unique in the sense that she has almost no on stage or offstage risks short of missed rests and bad spacing.

Also, RARing will surely buff Jiggs as is, so why give her more.

/end rant

EDIT:

Here's the skinny:

Characters in the demo are not completely done due to time constraints (however that doesn't mean they weren't close to done because they are). Anything that's questionable for top tiers to you is likely already addressed in the upcoming patch. So please, calm down, relax, and wait for the patch.

It's oversights like this that define why the characters are said to be "close to done".

CRAP! I said all of this for nothing now!

 

[Deleted member]

Jiggs

Omg. Jiggs is so broken. She's so easy to use and she's ungimpable. She can gimp anybody and plank all day and her back air covers the entire stage. She's so amazingly broken.


Oh wait, there's only 2 players in the entire world capable of using her like that.

Hmmmmm...

 

[The Upholder]

Actually the problem with jiggs isn't so much that beating her is an issue, it's that if she does all that, you have to do it back and then the game sucks, and no one wants to deal with it.


Besides even if Jiggs' sing is buffed in those ways, who gives a ****? It's still worthless. Just jump and hit her.

I think I should also note that in many cases it's impossible to completely fine tune characters until every other character has been worked on at least a rough amount. Ie, if we concentrate on each character individually, and then find out, for instance, that one character has like a 100-0 matchup, something will have to be changed.

Let characters be worked on in general, and then worry about tiers/fine tuning once we can actually roughly compare characters.

Every move can be better, every move can be worse. Good and bad are subjective, and need comparison to other characters. If you haven't finished the other characters, defining a move as good or bad is difficult.