Project M Social Thread

[ValTroX]

Lucas is good enough, you just don't know someone who plays him decently.

 

[Archangel]

Lucas is a decent comboist, and good at pressuring shields. He also has a decent projectile game as is excellent at gimping thanks to his Up B. His down B attack is god against low recovery characters too. He's tricky to use well, but he is fairly good. Moderate speed yet the potential to be a crazy powerhouse.

well he doesn't seem too bad but he so far seems the worst in the demo.

 

[ETWIST51294]

As soon as Lucas' DJC is right he'll be fine.

 

[Ecks]

I'll just answer Spam's question with this: I used to think jiggs was awful. I could not have been more mistaken.

@twist, I was thinking of something stupid my friend said when I said that. Thanks for explaining though.

 

[Xebenkeck]

it is surprising how many n00bs think that jigglypuff is bad. I lost to a puff in tourney not that long ago, and my noob friend was like "you lost to a puff lol", then i ***** him with puff after to prove a point >_>

 

[Archangel]

I'll just answer Spam's question with this: I used to think jiggs was awful. I could not have been more mistaken.

well...I have to say we are nothing alike in that aspect. I always try to point out potential in characters....I'm the one who said Puff was underrated in 06. Took everyone else 3 years to catch up. When I say someone is showing little-no potential for future development I wouldn't say it without reason. I don't think Lucas sucks....I just think right now in the demo he's bottom so far. DJC could change that. as well as landing detection.

As soon as Lucas' DJC is right he'll be fine.

true...as I said here.

 

[Ecks]

I thought you were basing your opinion on nothing like I did with jiggs. When I got melee (about a week from release) I was sure that kirby sucked and that fox and sheik were god and I was right, but then again, most people figured that out fast lol

I agree that Lucas seems a bit lacking though. But I haven't used him enough to make any claims.

 

[Metmetm3t]

I feel your pain man. NW, FL and I can't find a damn person to play smash with.
(Though alot of freindly people and good tennis players, So I suppose I can't complain)
Just miss havin a gang of people to smash with like in NC... back in the day...
/Nostalgia Glasses

I know i crew in P'Cola that play plenty
They love Project:M

 

[Sneak8288]

lucas is good... snake is at the bottom of the demo

 

[Archangel]

I thought you were basing your opinion on nothing like I did with jiggs. When I got melee (about a week from release) I was sure that kirby sucked and that fox and sheik were god and I was right, but then again, most people figured that out fast lol

I agree that Lucas seems a bit lacking though. But I haven't used him enough to make any claims.

Nah I have tested the demo characters extensively so far. I mean building from melee 2011 there is alot of strategies that already exist to pull from.

lucas is good... snake is at the bottom of the demo

Demo tier for me so far.(keep in mind landing detection isn't fixed in the current demo)

S) Sheik, Falco, Marth, Falcon

A) Fox(landing detection really effects him) Ganon

B)Puff, Link, Sonic, Snake, Mario

C) Zelda, Mr.GayManWatch

D) Lucas(all by myself )


So far nobody is E, F, or G tier status yet.

 

[Archangel]

*random Idea for pit Side-B*

I know you can now lift off when you use it on the ground but I was wondering if you can make his Side-B Cancel-able? That way you can Insa-techchase or insta super wavedash-grab-jab-...anything...it would be pretty cool I think.

 

[Magus420]

Faster shff times, unDIable nair and jab combos for free usmashes, vertical combos/KOs being unaffected by the stronger DI found on diagonal sending attacks, traction too high so shine doesn't send them as far and easier to combo, and extra +1 adv on shine hit due to electric hitlag rounding definitely make Fox much worse.

As a character I'd say he's actually better in the demo. Him being 'worse' is more of a player issue.

 

[Archangel]

Faster shff times, unDIable nair and jab combos for free usmashes, vertical combos/KOs being unaffected by the stronger DI found on diagonal sending attacks, traction too high so shine doesn't send them as far and easier to combo, and extra +1 adv on shine hit due to electric hitlag rounding definitely make Fox much worse.

As a character I'd say he's actually better in the demo. Him being 'worse' is more of a player issue.

On paper with certain effects you could say fox is better..on paper. However using him effectively with 100% consistency is twice is difficult.

 

[jahkzheng]

I always try to point out potential in characters....I'm the one who said Puff was underrated in 06. Took everyone else 3 years to catch up.

Well... I'm the one that said Puff was underrated in 02. Took you 3 years to catch up.

...


Seriously though, it's silly when people say these things. "I'm the one", like no one else though that... lol.

 

[Magus420]

Melee timings not transferring 1:1 in the demo has nothing to do with what the character can do. As a character he benefits by a lot of the stuff currently in the demo. I'm surprised you would put CF over him considering his more diagonal/horizontal combos are especially DIable (d-throw is awful for example).

 

[Krautrock]

I don't think Lucas is bad, but I've yet to see any real high level play with him. He's definitely the most unexplored character in the demo thus far.

 

[Archangel]

Well... I'm the one that said Puff was underrated in 02. Took you 3 years to catch up.

...


Seriously though, it's silly when people say these things. "I'm the one", like no one else though that... lol.

I never said I'm the "only one" However idea's like that were so unpopular at the time if anyone agreed it would've been lost in the sea of shut the **** up noob! It's one of the main reasons I never got into smashboards...my original count i don't even remember lol. I made like 8 posts then left for good.(till 08)

@ Magnus Falcon is simply placed where he is by default. In a weird way everything feels...ok with him. They are so off but since everything is off there is some kind of random feeling of order now that i've got use to everything being off. Then stuff like this shows up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbzHHgOF4MY#t=1m21s


Fox is only below the other 4 simply because he feels more effected atm. Falco can't shoot really short characters that can duck below his lasers....thats it. Marth's double fair is harder but do-able and he's got some semi-buffs atm...Sheik....she's still sheik..

As for Puke-us I spent the past few days playing him nearly exclusively vs humans, computers, in training mode...just trying desperately to find something that isn't there. I mean I think the more anyone plays vs lucas the easier it'll become to beat him right now. U might get caught with some super smashes a few times but once you figure him out he's kinda....not as good.

 

[Sneak8288]

If you think lucas is the worst in the demo then you need more training and fox is definitely right under sheik and probably tied with marth. I will play more lucas in streams and will even stream the demo if i have to. Your underrating him waaaay to much

 

[tera twin]

Spam Arrows' opinion about Lucas seems to clash with the general consensus. From what I've read, Lucas is really good with a lot of potential.

 

[Archangel]

If you think lucas is the worst in the demo then you need more training and fox is definitely right under sheik and probably tied with marth. I will play more lucas in streams and will even stream the demo if i have to. Your underrating him waaaay to much

The demo is the one i'm playing so any other version is irrelevant seeing as how I can't play any other version. Currently Lucas is what he is and isn't going anywhere New features are added in. Relying on Charge B smash attacks to get the job done is like relying on Falcon Punches. You might catch some people by shock or get them in inescapable situations during recovery but after that...Lucas is just slightly worse then almost everyone so far. Even though he can beat some people he's still overall and MU wise the least capable as he exists now....on the demo. I think the PMBR members should do well to remember that we are playing the demo and we don't have access to the changes and all the characters in the game right now before responding...at least sneak addressed it......so yeah stream the demo and use lucas only in a few sets vs other characters and we shall see.


Fox is still foxy you can do almost everything the difference is in the difficulty really. Landing detection fox doesn't suck but he can be beat do to stupidness like random shine knockdowns, landing detection failures and such. not so much that "everyone is buffed to fight him" as people were claiming. Fox is still fox it just feels like the other 4 are easier. I even thought about giving him his own tier at A+ but changed my mind.

 

[Sir Combee]

I have a quick question about stages as my previous post was unaddressed. First off, what are the chances that some of melee's banned stages returning? Peach's Castle, Great Bay, and Venom felt like defining stages of melee, despite not being that legit competitively. I know the brawl versions of these stages arent up to par, but it's nothing a good stage editor couldn't fix like M22K. I ask because from what I've seen in the demo, the second page of stages seems to have a good handful of other banned stages such as Fourside and Onett. There are also stages like 75m and Hanenbow that are just begging to be replaced

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Lol at Onett being a banned stage. Makes no sense.

 

[BinAly]

Melee timings not transferring 1:1 in the demo has nothing to do with what the character can do. As a character he benefits by a lot of the stuff currently in the demo. I'm surprised you would put CF over him considering his more diagonal/horizontal combos are especially DIable (d-throw is awful for example).

It wasn't like that. C.Falcon is just easier to transfer from Melee to P:M-DEMO, due to many small aspects.

Also, many of the things that you mentioned as buffs to Fox also cause great pain for him in other match-ups. For example, Falco's Blaster extended hit-lag is very hard to deal with.

All in all, since there are still many differences in the DEMO, this is pointless. Discussions about how characters differentiate from Melee should wait until the patch.

 

[GHNeko]

Onett could easily be legal without question, as opposed to what it is now.

Strech out the sides and increased the speed of the cars.

This will heavily deter any sort of boundary camping as well as give players larger room for error on the boundaries should the fight proceed there. The multiple platforms above the base of the stage provide more than enough room and allow fights to carry on rather normally with a unique flow.

Even though it's a paradise for characters like Toon Link, but places with 3 platforms or more generally are.

The platform/stage layout as well as the boundaries (counting the described sides) are unique and diverse enough to allow a new branch in the metagame to develop rather naturally.

I say this based on experience in playing Muliple versions of Smash on an Onett with increased side boundaries + sped up cars.


You can either take my word for it, or you can obtain a version of Onett that replicates my description and try it for yourself.

But I can and do assure you, that I'm pretty damn serious that my described Onett is so damn legit and almost any issue/discrepancy you've had with the original version of Onett is either solved or hindered with the Onett I've described.


Real talk.

</seriousneko>

 

[Grim Tuesday]

There was no issue with the old Onett anyway, lol.

 

[JCaesar]

Onett sucks. We don't need to finagle ****ty walkoff stages with intrusive hazards when we have so many good stages to play on.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Do you even know what finagle means? xD

 

[Slashy]

Onett could easily be legal without question, as opposed to what it is now.

Strech out the sides and increased the speed of the cars.

This will heavily deter any sort of boundary camping as well as give players larger room for error on the boundaries should the fight proceed there. The multiple platforms above the base of the stage provide more than enough room and allow fights to carry on rather normally with a unique flow.

Even though it's a paradise for characters like Toon Link, but places with 3 platforms or more generally are.

The platform/stage layout as well as the boundaries (counting the described sides) are unique and diverse enough to allow a new branch in the metagame to develop rather naturally.

I say this based on experience in playing Muliple versions of Smash on an Onett with increased side boundaries + sped up cars.


You can either take my word for it, or you can obtain a version of Onett that replicates my description and try it for yourself.

But I can and do assure you, that I'm pretty damn serious that my described Onett is so damn legit and almost any issue/discrepancy you've had with the original version of Onett is either solved or hindered with the Onett I've described.


Real talk.

</seriousneko>

I agree with this completely. I find this stage an amazing counterpick if you're playing as a heavy character like Bowser Koopa.

 

[JCaesar]

Do you even know what finagle means? xD

"to obtain by indirect or involved means"
"to get or achieve (something) by guile, trickery, or manipulation"

Does it mean something different in Australia? I'm not sure how I lost you...

We don't need to finagle Onett into our stagelist by screwing with it to make it a legitimate counterpick. Is that easier to read for you?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh, I see what you mean.

Sorry, shouldn't be posting at 11.40PM.

 

[Evilagram]

Onett sucks. We don't need to finagle ****ty walkoff stages with intrusive hazards when we have so many good stages to play on.

Isn't having more legal stages better? I mean, a common criticism of competitive smash in general is the tendency to ban most of the stages.

That and in general, it's better to have more stages, right? What if some people like onett?

 

[Slashy]

Onett provides a very unique environment and with it comes an environment in which players need to formulate completely new strategies.

It's unique design greatly favors slower characters and characters with great range.

Fast characters don't have a lot of room to move so many hit and run tactics are now unviable. Projectile heavy characters like Pikachu and (Power Suit) Samus now need to rely on more heavy spacing.

The walls allow for more varied stage combos and make more varied tech chases.

The lack of ledges also forces edgehogging heavy characters like Metaknight and Mario to adopt different strategies.

Even with all these changes it doesn't make these characters completely unviable on these stages, as they all still stand a chance to succeed.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Onett could easily be legal without question, as opposed to what it is now.

Strech out the sides and increased the speed of the cars.

This will heavily deter any sort of boundary camping as well as give players larger room for error on the boundaries should the fight proceed there. The multiple platforms above the base of the stage provide more than enough room and allow fights to carry on rather normally with a unique flow.

Even though it's a paradise for characters like Toon Link, but places with 3 platforms or more generally are.

The platform/stage layout as well as the boundaries (counting the described sides) are unique and diverse enough to allow a new branch in the metagame to develop rather naturally.

I say this based on experience in playing Muliple versions of Smash on an Onett with increased side boundaries + sped up cars.


You can either take my word for it, or you can obtain a version of Onett that replicates my description and try it for yourself.

But I can and do assure you, that I'm pretty damn serious that my described Onett is so damn legit and almost any issue/discrepancy you've had with the original version of Onett is either solved or hindered with the Onett I've described.


Real talk.

</seriousneko>

Also, we are free to alter the hitbox of the cars, including hitbox size.

 

[Evilagram]

If it's possible, how about one of us makes it and we see how it plays?

 

[Sir Combee]

So I take it most people wouldn't want any more banned melee stages? :/ Thats too bad. Great Bay was such a fun stage despite all the stupid stuff that would always inevitably happen haha

 

[Sneak8288]

The demo is the one i'm playing so any other version is irrelevant seeing as how I can't play any other version. Currently Lucas is what he is and isn't going anywhere New features are added in. Relying on Charge B smash attacks to get the job done is like relying on Falcon Punches. You might catch some people by shock or get them in inescapable situations during recovery but after that...Lucas is just slightly worse then almost everyone so far. Even though he can beat some people he's still overall and MU wise the least capable as he exists now....on the demo. I think the PMBR members should do well to remember that we are playing the demo and we don't have access to the changes and all the characters in the game right now before responding...at least sneak addressed it......so yeah stream the demo and use lucas only in a few sets vs other characters and we shall see.


Fox is still foxy you can do almost everything the difference is in the difficulty really. Landing detection fox doesn't suck but he can be beat do to stupidness like random shine knockdowns, landing detection failures and such. not so much that "everyone is buffed to fight him" as people were claiming. Fox is still fox it just feels like the other 4 are easier. I even thought about giving him his own tier at A+ but changed my mind.

You must not realize just how much i actually played the demo, fox is actually alot easier to play in the demo as far as tech skill goes and you don't have to be anywhere near as precise for timings compared to melee, it would honestly just be your ability to adjust that makes you think its harder. As far as lucas goes there's still alot you can do as well. Its just how you choose to put the tools that he has together. He's deals with characters alot better than snake or sonic could in the demo

 

[GHNeko]

Disagree with Sonic. I feel he can, but maybe that's just bias talking.

 

[JCaesar]

So I take it most people wouldn't want any more banned melee stages? :/ Thats too bad. Great Bay was such a fun stage despite all the stupid stuff that would always inevitably happen haha

I'm not against adding stages like Great Bay back in. They're great for fun and nostalgia. I'm against screwing with them to try to make them competitive. We have no shortage of good competitive stages. Let the classics be.

 

[BinAly]

I'm not against adding stages like Great Bay back in. They're great for fun and nostalgia. I'm against screwing with them to try to make them competitive. We have no shortage of good competitive stages. Let the classics be.

I agree with this view. We have lots of competitive stages, there is no need for more. Other stages were fun because of their specific, non-competitive elements.

For example, we always had fun when the Krok in Jungle Japes got a kill due to the river. Jesus, that fella has much more kills than me in my entire life...

 

[GHNeko]

Onett sucks. We don't need to finagle ****ty walkoff stages with intrusive hazards when we have so many good stages to play on.

Onett doesn't "suck" nor is it "****ty"

It's a perfectly valid stage with little to no questions asked after modifcation. Before modifications, the validity of Onett would figuratively be up in the air if it wasnt for certain things in both melee and brawl that pushed Onett into ban territory.

The walk off portion of Onett is indirectly countered by the pushing the side boundaries out and increasing speed of the cars.

How? With the increasing of the boundaries, you need to go further in order score a side KO/walk off KO.

And with the increasing of cars, miniature battles near the blast zone past the outmost houses will not last more than a short period of time uninterrupted before both players must actively take action against a predictable, and foretold hazard coming towards them, typically reseting the situation to near neutral situations, unlike stages like Rainbow or Delfino which are both valid CPs, but have no defense against such battles that happen extremely close to the blast zone.

Then on top of that, Onett offers a unique platform/level layout that's not exactly random or too out there, and reasonably characters can flow from one side to another while keeping other areas of the stage well within their reach in terms of offense and defense. The platforms and level base are not extended too far apart where typical options you'd see on other stages are no longer viable or potent, but they're not so close to the point where they serve little to no purpose.

Which adds to the fact that Onett's layout isn't something is replicated or is replicating other stages where there are multiple stages with similar layouts.

It's an organic melee stage that has been only seen in a negative light due to a few, but substantial reasons that have been reasonably hindered (and can be more if it is willed).

IF ANYTHING, you can EASILY go to extremes and simply remove significant cons from the stage, such as getting rid of the walk off out right. It's not unreasonable and I'm sure it's within the boundaries of what is possible within the realm of stage hacking.

I can understand you have a rather conservative view on tournament legal stages, but Onett can be dealt with in such a fashion that even it can fit your views on what stages are legal or not.

And without putting in even a minimal amount of effort to even actually attempt at playing on a redone and competitively improved Onett, a declaration of Onett's quality after changes is rather unfit and should not of even been said in the first place.

It's a fan favorite and has it's potential. If a stage like Temple can be completely lobotomized into the rather borderline CP/Banned stage of Temple:M, then without a doubt Onett can reach a similar, if not, more acceptable level of something that would be considered in a competitive environment for the game that is rather unquie in it's stage layout and brings it's own attributes to the table.

Yeah, we have a rather sizable list of competitive stages, but more than not, the stages share similar layouts, and even THEN, said stages are consistently used in stage lists. That and with the SSS code, you can easily have Onett:M and an original Onett side by side without qualms from anyone.

</seriousneko>