Project M Social Thread

[kaizo13]

every character in Project M will be viable

/end of story

seriously tho, why are u guys so obsessed with balance? 50/50 mtachups across the board are 1. impossible 2. boring

you can't get rid of tiers....but yes, everyone will be viable

 

[GP&B]

The demo has already actively improved characters who originally suffered in Melee, such as Link, Zelda, and Mario. No top tier characters will be nerfed. Instead, the rest of the cast will be brought up to their level.

Well, I don't think putting 50/50 across the board would be the idea and I'm also pretty sure that's impossible as a buff on a character evening out one matchup could also disrupt another, giving him/her an advantage. I think the main interest is to remove all hard counters beyond 30:70, 25:75 or something like that. Some characters are simply going to fair better against others; there just shouldn't be any shutdown matchups is all.

 

[Lolo_knight]

For the guys who want balance there will be a special release, from the files you get on the P:M download, erase all character folders but 1 of ur selection.

There you have it enjoy your balanced game, tiers will allways exist.

 

[Vigilante]

First, Brawl+ is a real mess. It is not really that balanced. It was plagued by the creators constantly responding to public demands and making this into an incoherent whole.

Project M on the other hand is made with professional knowledge. Characters will not be equal; you can't expect that. But the balance gaps will be extremely diminished. I expect all character to be at minimum at Melee high tier and maximum Melee top tier levels.

 

[DSP]

A little bit of feedback this far...
I've downloaded the demo and played it for several hours with a friend, we're both pretty good, not tourney-level, but we know how Melee and Brawl work on a competitive level. We mostly played the Link vs Ganon matchup.
Holy hell, Link is SO much better now. Utilt is a beastly combo starter and Ftilt is awesome all around. The MU seems kinda balanced now, actually.
We noticed one oddity about Final Destination, I guess I'm not the first to point it out, but anyway:

We were playing Link v Ganon on FD
His Ganon daired my Link near the right edge of FD
I DI'd into the upper part of FD's right edge and missed the tech
Instead of being sent downward or downward at an angle, I got sent to the UPPER LEFT of the stage and died there.
Lemme illustrate that. MSPaint go!

 

[Lolo_knight]

/\ AWESOME u shoul've saved that replay, still your pics are made of win!

 

[kaizo13]

what a coincidence lol

that just happened to me earlier today and I did actually save the replay......i just have no way of recording it

 

[Ecks]

Ok so here's an idea I had about ness's recovery: why not just get rid of pkthunder completely? My idea is to give him teleport. He would star running in place, loosing a bit of hight while doing so (like aerial pkthunder or wolfs up b) and then he'll teleport (or just run really fast) to a direction like foxs or falcos up. You can even use his intro annimation for the ending before going into special fall.

So what do you guys think? good, bad, terrible idea?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

But PK Thunder is good for juggling and tech-chasing... :/

 

[JCaesar]

I mentioned this some time ago but I didn't get a response (as far as I know, I haven't been on in over a week).

- Lucas' backward zap jump is now the same height as his forward zap jump, was this intentional? I liked being able to control how high my zap jump was in vBrawl by combining forward/backward zap jumps with or without a reversal, but I also like that you can get a full height backward zap jump with momentum in pm. Kinda torn on which I prefer though.

I don't think we changed anything. Probably just a result of the new physics and whatnot.

- DJC PKF plox. pretty plox. rly... do it. thx

I dunno if we can make it work with B moves, or if we want to. I do know you can DJC zair.

- Full jump dair doesn't really work on people who aren't tall like Ganon. It doesn't even hit shorties. Yeah. I don't know, it's not that bad. Just meh.

Might be landing detection.

- I miss dthrow KOs. They didn't happen often but I liked them. It's k I guess...

In Brawl+ we reversed the roles of Lucas's dthrow and uthrow, making dthrow the combo throw and uthrow the kill throw. This is a holdover from that, but I think it works better this way (lower release point on dthrow = more combo potential).

Also now it works like Mewtwo's throws, and we all know Lucas is the b@stard child of Mewtwo and Ness

- thunderslide is really hard to do now.

I don't know what that even means, sorry

- The graphics for the offense-upped smashes are deceiving in size. It looks like the hitboxes would be larger but they're exactly the same size. Trust me, I know. PSA told me. Actually, even the regular dsmash and usmash graphics appear too large.

Spoiler

I'm probably alone on this, but I actually don't like offense-up at all. The charging/smashes/wind-gimp just don't feel like Lucas to me. Don't like it. I would rather have a charge special that is a move on its own like samus/dk/lucario, perhaps a strong pk freeze that actually freezes (proximity?).

We can reduce the graphics if they don't fit well.

- Those little hitboxes on either side of Lucas at the start of utilt. Sometimes they don't hit the opponent far enough to be hit by the strong hitbox. And then I get punched.

Probably just a result of higher gravity, smaller hitboxes, etc.

- oh yeah, and marth's skinny legs can fit between Lucas' standing grab hitboxes at the right distance. I suggest adding one more hitbox and moving them all closer together so that the space is filled properly.

Tethers don't work like other grabs. I'm not sure we can fix the blind spot, but I'll look into it.

 

[jalued]

A little bit of feedback this far...
I've downloaded the demo and played it for several hours with a friend, we're both pretty good, not tourney-level, but we know how Melee and Brawl work on a competitive level. We mostly played the Link vs Ganon matchup.
Holy hell, Link is SO much better now. Utilt is a beastly combo starter and Ftilt is awesome all around. The MU seems kinda balanced now, actually.
We noticed one oddity about Final Destination, I guess I'm not the first to point it out, but anyway:

The balance is imo due to Landing detection.

In melee, Ganon can use his late Upair hitbox onstage to semi-spike Link's recovery (if not sweetspotted)

However due to the way that brawl registers landing (warping to the ground), the move cancels before the final hitboxes come out, making the Ganon/Link matchup considerably different. Alot of ganons options are limited due to LD (such as SH double bair), so its far too early to consider any real matchups with him.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The unbalance that you are suggesting is in Link's favour right? If so that is due to Landing detection.

In melee, Ganon can use his late Upair hitbox onstage to semi-spike Link's recovery (if not sweetspotted)

However due to the way that brawl registers landing (warping to the groun), the move cancels before the final hitboxes come out, making the Ganon/Link matchup considerably different. Alot of ganons options are limited due to LD (such as SH double bair), so its far too early to consider any real matchups with him.

He said balanced, not un-balanced.

 

[jalued]

He said balanced, not un-balanced.

oh well then once LD is fixed, it wont be

my bad, sorry

 

[DarkISDA]

I don't get the pictures on the blog post. =(

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

*stopped reading a few pages ago*

The reason that Sheik's Needles beat Samus's Charge Shot was not because of priority, but because the needles themselves had hurtboxes. It's the same reason that Ness's PK fire beat charge shot as well as Link Bombs.

In essence, Sheik's needles had greater priority than Lasers because the needle would often eat the laser and continue going. I can't think of a single projectile that beat Needles aside from Blizzard.

 

[CSDragon]

The demo has already actively improved characters who originally suffered in Melee, such as Link, Zelda, and Mario. No top tier characters will be nerfed. Instead, the rest of the cast will be brought up to their level.

Well, I don't think putting 50/50 across the board would be the idea and I'm also pretty sure that's impossible as a buff on a character evening out one matchup could also disrupt another, giving him/her an advantage. I think the main interest is to remove all hard counters beyond 30:70, 25:75 or something like that. Some characters are simply going to fair better against others; there just shouldn't be any shutdown matchups is all.

By the removal of Tier S, I meant the reduction of Meta Knight to not being SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OP

@ People saying Tiers will always exist, so why bother/i'm stupid.

Of course they will exist, but more tiers won't be laughed at when picked.

 

[Vigilante]

With Metaknight and his laser priority. He's probably a Jedi, and his sword is preobably a laser blade in disguise. But yeah, in terms of Meta, he has strong stats, and in Brawl, since you can't really combo, individual moves matter more. In Melee, a move can be better if it connects to other moves. But yes, metaknight isn't so broken. I seen videos (Streams) of him, and he can still hold his own very well. He's just not OP.

 

[GHNeko]

*stopped reading a few pages ago*

The reason that Sheik's Needles beat Samus's Charge Shot was not because of priority, but because the needles themselves had hurtboxes. It's the same reason that Ness's PK fire beat charge shot as well as Link Bombs.

In essence, Sheik's needles had greater priority than Lasers because the needle would often eat the laser and continue going. I can't think of a single projectile that beat Needles aside from Blizzard.

we already covered this

thanks tho

 

[toasty]

Ok so here's an idea I had about ness's recovery: why not just get rid of pkthunder completely? My idea is to give him teleport. He would star running in place, loosing a bit of hight while doing so (like aerial pkthunder or wolfs up b) and then he'll teleport (or just run really fast) to a direction like foxs or falcos up. You can even use his intro annimation for the ending before going into special fall.

So what do you guys think? good, bad, terrible idea?

OMFG I actually LOVE this idea!!!!!

As I've said since 2007 when he was revealed on Smashbros.com, Lucas is the Super Saiyan version of Ness. The new and improved. Gave him everything Ness needed and more.
- a tether.
- faster upB that couldn't be gimped by simply getting in the way, with a much longer PKT2 as well.
- a psimagnet that was quick, an ATTACK, and useful for recovery
- a useful sideB projectile
- 2 meteors

What did Ness get?
- A little better.

...maybe. >_>

As a Melee Ness main, Lucas feels extremely natural, especially in PM.
^btw, when I was on Neko's stream, this is was why I wanted to play Lucas instead of Ness despite the requests.

Teleport alone would be such a huge game changer. If it's at all possible, oh mannnnnnn <3<3<3


Back to Lucas: I love his new dthrow. Good ****, thinking of the combos =D

EDIT:

But PK Thunder is good for juggling and tech-chasing... :/

Wuuut nah son that limits the character so much...now DJC and Swing Jumping? THAT'S good for juggling and tech chasing!

Actually I don't think Swing Jumping was possible with Test Bed Ness, I haven't tried the current PMBR Ness, though...

Regardless, I'll hit up my Melee Ness homies and discuss some stuff with them

 

[Ecks]

^^ Thanks. I was trying to come up with ideas for a psa but my comp's ****ed up so I won't be doing that :/
And since the pm devs are overhauling low tiers, it's worth a shot right?

And as a Ness main (who hasn't played melee Ness in a while >_>) I know that his up b isn't that bad. But it's still bad imo.

 

[jalued]

^^ Thanks. I was trying to come up with ideas for a psa but my comp's ****ed up so I won't be doing that :/
And since the pm devs are overhauling low tiers, it's worth a shot right?

And as a Ness main (who hasn't played melee Ness in a while >_>) I know that his up b isn't that bad. But it's still bad imo.

Ness is a wierd character tbh, in smash 64 he was considered high tier for ages, until people finally realised no matter how good his onstage game is, his recovery is just too bad.

Can ness ever really be balanced?

 

[toasty]

teleporrrrrtttttttttt unnnnnnnffffffffff

 

[AMKalmar]

Might be landing detection.

Regarding dair, I meant that the first hit doesn't connect vs short, or even medium height characters in a full jump. Landing doesn't have anything to do with it.

I don't know what that even means, sorry

This. In vbrawl I could do it consistently at different angles. In p:m I can do it about once in never. Probably a result of faster running speed and higher traction.

Tethers don't work like other grabs. I'm not sure we can fix the blind spot, but I'll look into it.

His standing grab, sub action 0x6C, has 4 catch collisions attached to bone 0x39 - ID 57, RHaveN. I could add the collision myself. Pivot grab might have the same problem but I didn't test. Dash grab is fine because it sweeps.

 

[GHNeko]

toasty should come back over this weekend

 

[toasty]

I wouldn't get my panties in a bunch about fullhop dair.

One day, you'll find its application. Until then, you'll learn how SH-dair and DJ/DJC dair will fill the void in your life XD

I think I can live without thunder sliding, considering how much else he has going for him, now. Just my opinion, though...sucks if that was like your favorite thing with him and now it's hard to do it =/

Neko: maybe ^_^

I'll let you know...been hella busy

 

[shanus]

What if we had the option of removing his downB and giving it something new for Ness? I feel like PK thunder is kind of iconic and would be sad to see it go.

 

[GHNeko]

PSI Rockin imo.

 

[jalued]

What if we had the option of removing his downB and giving it something new for Ness? I feel like PK thunder is kind of iconic and would be sad to see it go.

but his downB is iconic of ness, been through 3 smash games already.

Its just a shame that nintendo were so unoriginal with Lucas

 

[Xinc]

What if we had the option of removing his downB and giving it something new for Ness? I feel like PK thunder is kind of iconic and would be sad to see it go.

Although I agree that PK Thunder is iconic, so is PSI Magnet probably. The power to absorb projectiles. xD pKThunder is probably worse off to keep, but is it possible to just make it better, like a multi-hit so it can't be as easily intercepted, or just grabbing the ledge is easier?

 

[toasty]

or to freakin allow him to do this multiple times like they did for like a week of Brawl+???

been saying thing for so long....only *****es complain about how much you can spam it...if it's that spammable, maybe it should have more knockback so it's more difficult to follow it up, or it should have less stun so that players can avoid another hit a bit more easily, in which case it could have less priority

that would solve the spamming issue right there and Ness can upB again even if the PKT is intercepted

seriously, that would make a tremendous difference


and for those who don't remember what that was like in B+ before they removed it, here's a vid I made way back then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8cvnMrmK-U


Also, iirc, they were unoriginal with Ness, not Lucas...because weren't a good bit of Ness's moves actually Lucas's from the Mother games?

 

[AMKalmar]

I wouldn't get my panties in a bunch about fullhop dair.

One day, you'll find its application. Until then, you'll learn how SH-dair and DJ/DJC dair will fill the void in your life XD

I think I can live without thunder sliding, considering how much else he has going for him, now. Just my opinion, though...sucks if that was like your favorite thing with him and now it's hard to do it =/

I don't really care that much about most of the things I said, I just wanted to point a few things out. Thundersliding wasn't my favourite thing. Bounces are my fav, that's why a play Lucas. And I love the ledge cancelling PKF!

Yeah, the grab should be fixed and DJC PKF would be awesome.

 

[MonkUnit]

DSP, did you save a replay of that ganon dair thing?

 

[shanus]

Although I agree that PK Thunder is iconic, so is PSI Magnet probably. The power to absorb projectiles. xD pKThunder is probably worse off to keep, but is it possible to just make it better, like a multi-hit so it can't be as easily intercepted, or just grabbing the ledge is easier?

Yeah, but one is easily more useful than the other

 

[Xinc]

or to freakin allow him to do this multiple times like they did for like a week of Brawl+???

been saying thing for so long....only *****es complain about how much you can spam it...if it's that spammable, maybe it should have more knockback so it's more difficult to follow it up, or it should have less stun so that players can avoid another hit a bit more easily, in which case it could have less priority

that would solve the spamming issue right there and Ness can upB again even if the PKT is intercepted

seriously, that would make a tremendous difference


and for those who don't remember what that was like in B+ before they removed it, here's a vid I made way back then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8cvnMrmK-U


Also, iirc, they were unoriginal with Ness, not Lucas...because weren't a good bit of Ness's moves actually Lucas's from the Mother games?

You misunderstand. I meant more like Lucas'. I still don't get why Lucas' playstyle is "easier" than Ness'. We nesses have to try xD

 

[Xinc]

Yeah, but one is easily more useful than the other

EDIT: excuse for the "double post"

True but they both have rather interesting uses.

 

[shanus]

EDIT: excuse for the "double post"

True but they both have rather interesting uses.

what part of melee ness combo vids is more exciting?

PK tricks, or downB. I think the answer there partly relates to my bias

 

[DSP]

DSP, did you save a replay of that ganon dair thing?

No, sorry. But you might contact kaizo13, he saved it and only needs a way to get it as a normal video... maybe he can send it to someone with a capture card?

100th post woo

 

[toasty]

You know what's NOT exciting in combo videos? Edgeguarding Ness by watching his PKT hit an offscreen ShyGuy.

@Xinc: well if his was like Lucas's...that'd be kinda boring and a waste of a chance to do something great

and LOL trust me I know all about how hard Ness has to try ^_^

 

[shanus]

What if we did something a little crazy with upB or downB, where he no longer has a PKT, but can "charge up" a PKT2 that can be fired in any direction and increases length and damage with direction.

I.e. imagine downB is the charging function, you can store it and cancel with L or R. Then if you upB, itll go a distance based on charge and damage based on charge. Something crazy beast.

Just shooting random ideas in the air

 

[FireBall Stars]

I am pretty sure that removing the PSI Magnet and making another move will take much less work and problems than trying to make the move(psi magnet)to be actually useful.