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Project M Social Thread

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Fly_Amanita

Fly_Amanita

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I want to play again soon. Maybe I'll try characters that have actually been worked on.

Or maybe I'll just continue working with the very undeveloped ICs to learn how to do more broken crap.
 
camelot

camelot

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Snake's DACUS has a tigher window, so it's a lot harder to perform consistently, and because of the higher friction it goes like one third of vBrawl's distance. Definitely worse (and less stupid) than before.


ClinkStryphart said:
=My question of mario's cape was actually a ledge inquestion problem with some characters such as Falcon with all due respect to his epicness to somehow sometimes if your mario and you cape on the ledge that falcon I know for a fact grab the ledge from the inside. I noticed this happen alot in B+(R.I.P.) so I asked if it was fixed due to it was weird looking.

My question for lucas was simple does he still maintain his Tether for part of his alternative recovery?

Back grabs for ledges out of UpB's = Ftw
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That ledge grab problem is likely a problem with the "turn" element rather than the cape in particular, but regardless, nobody has found a fix for it, so people will have to put up with the weird reverse ledge grabs for now.

Lucas still has his tether recovery, yeah. No real reason to remove it.
 
Plum

Plum

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genkaku said:
Is shellshifting as potent?
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Shellshifting basically can't be as potent when you introduce other movement options into Squirtle's game. But that doesn't mean we didn't do something to make shellshifting extremely useful and to separate it from wavedashing... ;)
lolnospoilersfromme
 
D

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FireBall Stars said:
So now Snake says something when puts a C4 into someone, better.

btw, does the C4 passes back to Snake like in Brawl? I hope not.
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It doesn't pass back to Snake, but it may fall off randomly. I believe the devs said they may fix that later.


Also, Squirtle's shellshifting is amazing. Its part of the theme of his character and feels quick and technical like Melee generally is. It also provides for nice options with grabs, hydroplaning, and aerials.

Don't touch squirtle. He is a beast.
 
camelot

camelot

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The C4 sometimes falls off when the stickied player gets hit, but it doesn't randomly fall off otherwise, and it can't pass to other players.

It has a really strange glitch in teams or FFAs right now though, where you can stick one person, detonate it, and somebody else will blow up. So Snake is broken in teams/FFAs right now, but not in a "too good" way.
 
Alondite

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AeonClock said:
Where's the fun in simplifying it?
For me the "complex inputs" for wave dashing/l-canceling and other technical......... techniques make pulling off combos so much more rewarding. It's not just knowing how and when to utilize tech skills that gives the game depth, it's actually being able to pull them off. Knowing how to apply some beastly shield pressure with fox and actually APPLYING the shield pressure are two TOTALLY different things.
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No. Complex input commands just get in the way of the real game. Take Street Fighter. Being able to perform a Dragon Punch doesn't mean anything, it's how you use it that matters. Being able to perform the moves is just mindless motor-learning that is required to actually get into the meat of the game.

As for your last example, if you know how to but physically can't do it then it's probably a result of bad game design. Because in a well-designed game, you need to have an understanding and mastery of the controls and mechanics to know how to pull of advanced moves. Adding complexity solely for the sake of complexity is bad game design.
 
Sox

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Or you suck? That's how the game is played it bad don't blame bad game design...
 
Plum

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Alondite said:
No. Complex input commands just get in the way of the real game. Take Street Fighter. Being able to perform a Dragon Punch doesn't mean anything, it's how you use it that matters. Being able to perform the moves is just mindless motor-learning that is required to actually get into the meat of the game.

As for your last example, if you know how to but physically can't do it then it's probably a result of bad game design. Because in a well-designed game, you need to have an understanding and mastery of the controls and mechanics to know how to pull of advanced moves. Adding complexity solely for the sake of complexity is bad game design.
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You're really just arguing a futile fight here.
There is zero way we wouldn't add tech skill into the game.
Why?
Consider our target audience.
High level Melee players.
We're talking about players who actually want these techs in the game, and quite frankly might not even give the game a chance without them.
As developers and players of this game we are also building the game we want. It's certainly no coincidence that those of us who playtest/code Project M are among the target audience of those who want these "arbitrary" techs in the game.

Why would we make this game in such a way that it does not please our target audience or us as the developers of the game? That just makes no sense.

If you are not among that audience then this game just isn't for you.
 
AeonClock

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Alondite said:
No. Complex input commands just get in the way of the real game. Take Street Fighter. Being able to perform a Dragon Punch doesn't mean anything, it's how you use it that matters. Being able to perform the moves is just mindless motor-learning that is required to actually get into the meat of the game.

As for your last example, if you know how to but physically can't do it then it's probably a result of bad game design. Because in a well-designed game, you need to have an understanding and mastery of the controls and mechanics to know how to pull of advanced moves. Adding complexity solely for the sake of complexity is bad game design.
Click to expand...
Like Sox said, don't blame the game if you're not willing to work for your skills. Wave dashing is technically not even supposed to BE in the game, so why would it have a simple input? And I fail to see how L-cancelling is bad game design, even with your examples.

Let's use Street Fighter as an example. To pull off links, most of the time you must have spot-on timing. Some to the point of being nearly frame-perfect. If you were allowed to input the link's commands without any timing involved how would that affect the gameplay? You would have average players pulling off beastly combos just because they KNOW the links. It's the time and effort needed to master the timing of the link that makes pulling off combos satisfying, not just knowing the inputs.

Pulling off a 0-death combo with Falco just wouldn't feel the same if the inputs for wavedashing and L-canceling were simplified to me :(
 
GHNeko

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Sox said:
Or you suck? That's how the game is played it bad don't blame bad game design...
Click to expand...

This is a terrible post and you should feel bad.

He has a valid point, but it's only one method of game design. Not the end all one. Being able to know how to use a move is most important, but execution via finger skill is a legitimate variable/attribute to add to a game. It adds artificial difficulty and based on the crowd, can be a good or bad thing.

People enjoy melee for many reasons, one of those reasons happens to be artificial difficulty created by complex button inputs to cause a specific event to happen.

To some degree, artificial difficulty is reflected in all games because designers make the more rewarding commands more complex than others.

Case in point, Ultras vs Supers in SSF4.

Ultras = More reward, but require more difficulty in inputs, however slight vs Supers which are weaker but easier to input. V:


The melee community prefers a good amount of artificial difficulty. So it's reflected in desire.


Is simplifying commands to make them more accessable a bad thing? Not really, but it's not really a good thing either.

It's just game design. That's all.

The developers are catering to an audience that wants artificial difficulty.


/rapesthisarguement
 
Archangel

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Alondite said:
No. Complex input commands just get in the way of the real game. Take Street Fighter. Being able to perform a Dragon Punch doesn't mean anything, it's how you use it that matters. Being able to perform the moves is just mindless motor-learning that is required to actually get into the meat of the game.

As for your last example, if you know how to but physically can't do it then it's probably a result of bad game design. Because in a well-designed game, you need to have an understanding and mastery of the controls and mechanics to know how to pull of advanced moves. Adding complexity solely for the sake of complexity is bad game design.
Click to expand...
The Complexities are part of what make Melee special and Streetfighter like every other game. It may have been among the first but I can think of at least 50 games off top that play exactly the same give or take a few things. It's a safe design game with simple mechanics. Press Down, Foward this to do a special back to block....etc. After YEARS the newest Streetfighter game is still a basic 2D fighter design with nothing special about it. The ability to block, Roll, Spot-dodge, Air dodge, Wavedash, and Waveland in a 2D world gives you a sense of limitlessness compared to most fighters. Even comparing the projectile game such as Fox's SH-double laser to simply back up and hadoken....idk you cant even compare it.

The truth is taking away techs like WDing and L-cancels won't change anything. If you are the kind of person that blames your failures on the game instead of looking inward to find the true answers to your problems then your never going to succeed in any competitive game you play.
 
Sox

Sox

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The only reason I say that complex inputs are a necessary part of the game is because of the options it creates for you. Being able to do just simple things such as WD out of a shield in melee is pretty difficult to do for a beginner technically , but once you master this it gives you another option that you can use in a certain situation. I don't think the majority of high level melee players like the game because of the amount of buttons they push, they like it because they have masted these techniques, and because if it, are significantly better than most. I don;t care about street fighter ultras or how difficult they are to do. if you do it in a bad situation you're punished, just like the techniques that require technical skill in melee. If you're not going to learn when to use and how to execute certain things how can you expect to be competitive? Just blame the game design?
 
Strong Badam

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Alondite said:
No. Complex input commands just get in the way of the real game. Take Street Fighter. Being able to perform a Dragon Punch doesn't mean anything, it's how you use it that matters. Being able to perform the moves is just mindless motor-learning that is required to actually get into the meat of the game.

As for your last example, if you know how to but physically can't do it then it's probably a result of bad game design. Because in a well-designed game, you need to have an understanding and mastery of the controls and mechanics to know how to pull of advanced moves. Adding complexity solely for the sake of complexity is bad game design.
Click to expand...
This isn't the game for you, then. Play Brawl.
 
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