Project M Social Thread

[Archangel]

This isn't the game for you, then. Play Brawl.

No point in Playing Brawl. Melee players win most Brawl events. He needs to do some soul searching or to put it bluntly and straight forward. Stop being a little *****.

 

[Sora-kun]

This is entertaining. His posts are like copypastas of the previous 5 people's arguments against L-cancelling.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Which only reinforces my question of why big 480+ page threads(I have more PPP than you) follow patterns like this.

 

[GHNeko]

The only reason I say that complex inputs are a necessary part of the game is because of the options it creates for you. Being able to do just simple things such as WD out of a shield in melee is pretty difficult to do for a beginner technically , but once you master this it gives you another option that you can use in a certain situation. I don't think the majority of high level melee players like the game because of the amount of buttons they push, they like it because they have masted these techniques, and because if it, are significantly better than most. I don;t care about street fighter ultras or how difficult they are to do. if you do it in a bad situation you're punished, just like the techniques that require technical skill in melee. If you're not going to learn when to use and how to execute certain things how can you expect to be competitive? Just blame the game design?

Complex inputs do not create options.

How hard something is has very little barring because really, it's what's on screen is what matters. Not what's in the player's hand. :V

All complex inputs reward is execution of an option and satisfaction of achieving a new level in finger execution and being able to use the option attached to this complex input when you wanted/needed.

Artificial Difficulty/Complex input is not a requirement for a good game. It is only a SPICE to add to the overall FLAVOR of a game. V:

When you add this SPICE, the dish appeal changes!

 

[Sox]

What I meant to say was the options that the imputs create is whats important. If you were to keep the options and eliminate the imputs the game would only be changed for the better i guess. However, would that be possible in a game such as melee?

 

[GHNeko]

Yes. The options is what the inputs create are important. Exactly. The inputs themselves are not. The options are.

Eliminating the inputs but keeping the options removes flavor from the game. This is bad or good, based on how much is removed vs how much was there initially, though if you remove too much, then it's just straight up bad.

No. Because Melee means TECHSKILLTECHSKILLTECHSKILLMINDGAMESRANDOMHYPETECHSKILL in the eyes of the community.

 

[FireBall Stars]

This is Melee 2

Not Smash bros. 4

Is it that hard to understand?

 

[GHNeko]

And what is that supposed to imply. Lol.

 

[AeonClock]

That it will keep all the things that made Melee, Melee.

 

[GHNeko]

idunno man there is some brawl in your P:M

V:

 

[Glöwworm]

Project: M is Melee 2.0

Let's just say that Project: M is the true successor to Melee.

 

[genkaku]

IF you have a complaint concerning such a core part of the game design, you should PM Shanus with your concerns, not start a fight here. Nothing productive can come from voicing your opinion about tech skill on this thread. Really. You're talking to people that use Technisocal as a word. And, to be frank, we're all tired of reading the same arguments.
Make things easier on everyone and try to find a better way or place to actively and hopefully successfully express your views.

 

[Strong Badam]

The opening post quite clearly states that we are not going to change the L-Canceling mechanic. No form of argument or debate will change it.

 

[Toadster5]

No. Complex input commands just get in the way of the real game. Take Street Fighter. Being able to perform a Dragon Punch doesn't mean anything, it's how you use it that matters. Being able to perform the moves is just mindless motor-learning that is required to actually get into the meat of the game.

As for your last example, if you know how to but physically can't do it then it's probably a result of bad game design. Because in a well-designed game, you need to have an understanding and mastery of the controls and mechanics to know how to pull of advanced moves. Adding complexity solely for the sake of complexity is bad game design.

If you look at the most popular and well established competitive games they all have a level technical skill that is required to play at a high level. For example, if you can't hit your groundstrokes consistently in tennis then your gameplan is much less significant since you may fail to execute anyways. This applies to any sport. Some people truly enjoy building their fundamental skills from the ground up and watching their options expand as they master new things, while some want all of their options to be handed to them from the get-go.

 

[GHNeko]

Project: M is Melee 2.0

Let's just say that Project: M is the true successor to Melee.

Fixed. ROFL.

You're talking to people that use Technisocal as a word.

LOL.

**** Connor. genkaku calling you out. ROFL.

 

[TLMSheikant]

If you cant l cancel u suck. Thats why its there. Go play bawwwwl.

 

[Sox]

dont say that. they'll infract you.

On a serious note, I've been nothing but impressed by the work put in by the P:M team. I'm excited to see the finished project.

 

[I R MarF]

Complex inputs do not create options.

How hard something is has very little barring because really, it's what's on screen is what matters. Not what's in the player's hand. :V

All complex inputs reward is execution of an option and satisfaction of achieving a new level in finger execution and being able to use the option attached to this complex input when you wanted/needed.

Artificial Difficulty/Complex input is not a requirement for a good game. It is only a SPICE to add to the overall FLAVOR of a game. V:

When you add this SPICE, the dish appeal changes!

Smash's controls are VERY simple compared to other fighter games. Performing attacks are much more natural because all you have to do is pres A and the direction you want the attack to go. Not to mention, special moves are reduced to one button whereas in most 2d fighters, special moves are sometimes trickier to pull off (though it depends on the game).

So what are these complex inputs, or, as you called them "artificial difficulty"? They could be arbitrary and pointless or they could be viewed as something that is expanding the already simple controls.

Firstly, lets talk about L-cancelling. The intention was obviously meant to be a trick, "Hey Timmy, if you press L when you hit the ground while dairing with link you get up faster, isn't that cool?" <Obvious intention when the designers made it

However, it accidently became a huge part of the game when considering high level play, and a lot of people call it "fake skill". Well, automatic lag reduction is "fake speed" it just throws a bone to player and says "your good now, have fun, main fox and you'll pwn"

Insteading of hating on L-cancelling just consider it as part of an attack input much like traditional 2d fighters recquire multiple inputs.

As for wavedashing, its an exploitation of the game's physics that has a lot of benefits: speed, spacing, mindgames, etc. If it was something that you couldn't mess up on, imagine how broken that would be.

Not to mention, once you master wavedashing its like pressing a button anyway so it pretty much is broken if you have good reflexes. lol.

TL;DR all in all, these complex inputs compliment the already simple game and give new players a reason to strive for improvement. In fact, I would love it if P:M team added new ATs. (Though the only one that has any chance would be some kind of attack buffering mechanic where the first X amount of frames of an attack are cut in half; sort of like reversed L cancelling. But I doubt that can be something that could be coded)

 

[GHNeko]

If you cant l cancel u suck. Thats why its there. Go play bawwwwl.

0/10

hry tarder

Smash's controls are VERY simple compared to other fighter games. Performing attacks are much more natural because all you have to do is pres A and the direction you want the attack to go. Not to mention, special moves are reduced to one button whereas in most 2d fighters, special moves are sometimes trickier to pull off (though it depends on the game).

Melee is a 4 button game. I know it's simple.

So what are these complex inputs, or, as you called them "artificial difficulty"? They could be arbitrary and pointless or they could be viewed as something that is expanding the already simple controls.

>complex inputs
>see falco/fox
rofl.gif

>artificial difficulty
>l-canceling
lmao.gif

L-canceling is arbitrary. It adds nothing but artificial difficulty and nothing else to the game. Is that bad/good? Depends.

Firstly, lets talk about L-cancelling. The intention was obviously meant to be a trick, "Hey Timmy, if you press L when you hit the ground while dairing with link you get up faster, isn't that cool?" <Obvious intention when the designers made it

Well, possibly. It was never confirmed, but last I recall, L/Z-Canceling was put in to help players shield faster when they missed an aerial, which really makes more sense when you look at Sakurai. lol.

However, it accidently became a huge part of the game when considering high level play, and a lot of people call it "fake skill". Well, automatic lag reduction is "fake speed" it just throws a bone to player and says "your good now, have fun, main fox and you'll pwn"

L-Canceling is not fake skill. It is skill. Technical Skill. Duh.

ALR is not fake speed either. It's just L-Canceling without the L. V:

There is nothing wrong with ALR or L-Canceling. Yes, it makes it easier for the player, but as I've said, its about what's on screen, not what's in the player's hands.

Insteading of hating on L-cancelling just consider it as part of an attack input much like traditional 2d fighters recquire multiple inputs.

>implying i hate l-canceling.
epiclaugh.gif

As for wavedashing, its an exploitation of the game's physics that has a lot of benefits: speed, spacing, mindgames, etc. If it was something that you couldn't mess up on, imagine how broken that would be.

Not really that much more different than it is now tbh. Most pros have way past mastered Wavedashing. Sure they mess it up now and then, but really, they WD with like a 95%+ success rate. lol.

Not to mention, once you master wavedashing its like pressing a button anyway so it pretty much is broken if you have good reflexes. lol.

I disagree.

TL;DR all in all, these complex inputs compliment the already simple game and give new players a reason to strive for improvement. In fact, I would love it if P:M team added new ATs. (Though the only one that has any chance would be some kind of attack buffering mechanic where the first X amount of frames of an attack are cut in half; sort of like reversed L cancelling. But I doubt that can be something that could be coded)

tl;dr all in all these complex input appeal to a specific set of players and give these players a reason to strive for improvement. In fact, I would love if it people would stop trying to argue which method of game design is better because you can't in this case unless you're trying to cater to a specific set of people, in which, the choice is obvious. (Though tbh it has given me a chance to show my srs side rofl)

:V

 

[GP&B]

Every <picturename>.gif Neko posts makes me want to click on it and see a laughing animation.

/failuretocontribute

 

[GHNeko]

dude i literally laughed out loud at that.

 

[Glöwworm]

Fixed. ROFL.

oh lol MY BAD

Yeah, I meant MELEE.

i fixed it

 

[I R MarF]

Melee is a 4 button game. I know it's simple.

Alright, glad to hear it.

>implying i hate l-canceling.
epiclaugh.gif

v

L-canceling is arbitrary. It adds nothing but artificial difficulty and nothing else to the game. Is that bad/good? Depends.

(Yep, I wonder why anyone would ever get the impression that you hate L-cacelling)

v

L-Canceling is not fake skill. It is skill. Technical Skill. Duh.

For that, you were either joking or it was an epic contradiction. Also, I never said it was fake skill. I said some people say it is.

Anyway, like I said, you can't be angry at L-cancelling. It was probably never intended to be used so heavily in the competive scene and it DOES take skill to master. There is timing involved and it allows players who take the time to master it to have a higher degree of control over others.

Not really that much more different than it is now tbh. Most pros have way past mastered Wavedashing. Sure they mess it up now and then, but really, they WD with like a 95%+ success rate. lol.

"Pro" is a key word.

I disagree.

If you need to think about performing a wavedash longer than you need to think about doing most attacks then you haven't mastered it. Saying that may sound arrogant but it is VERY easy to use once you get the hang of it.

Steps of learning wavedashing in Smash:
1. Basics (Knowing how to do it)
2. Implementing (Being able to get the hang of its use in game)
3. Personifying (Molding it to your playstyle)
4. Mastering (Having complete control over its use)

tl;dr all in all these complex input appeal to a specific set of players and give these players a reason to strive for improvement. In fact, I would love if it people would stop trying to argue which method of game design is better because you can't in this case unless you're trying to cater to a specific set of people, in which, the choice is obvious. (Though tbh it has given me a chance to show my srs side rofl)

:V

Eh, you make a good point. Then again, how did this whole situation start?

There is nothing wrong with ALR or L-Canceling. Yes, it makes it easier for the player, but as I've said, its about what's on screen, not what's in the player's hands.

That's debatable. I like the fact that both mindgame and technical skill co-exist in smash. Its fair to players who opt one type of skill over the other.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

HOLY **** PEOPLE I SAID TO STFU ABOUT IT. >:u

 

[Fly_Amanita]

It's funny to see so many words over such a simple issue.

Should there be L-canceling? To answer this, we have to consider the the question "How does it change the game?" The short answer is "It makes the game ever-so-slightly more technically demanding." Going back to the first question, we see that the answer depends on whether technical skill is a skill that we value and are interested in testing.

For better or worse, many in the Melee community think that is a skill worthy of being honored. I disagree, as I play the game because I like the decision-making aspects of it, and I view tech skill as a boring requirement that gets in the way of the interesting part of the game, but this is only what I value in the game, and unfortunately for me, the community this game is largely aimed at does value being able to move fingers around quickly; also unfortunately for me, it would be unwise to snub the target audience of this game.

On the bright side, L-canceling is incredibly easy and whether it is or isn't ultimately in the game is an issue almost no significance.

 

[kaizo13]

10infractionsplease

 

[Plum]

HOLY **** PEOPLE I SAID TO STFU ABOUT IT. >:V

Fixed

/10windboxesarenownekos

 

[rPSIvysaur]

rPSI Edit: As of 9/19/10, I will infract you if you bring up Manual L-Canceling vs. Automatic L-Canceling. >:U

I'm enforcing this BTW. >:U

 

[GHNeko]

Awwww.

There goes my srs mode.

10windboxes

 

[Mr.Pickle]

So is there anyone in Tennessee that has access to the latest build of project m? Just wondering if the south is getting some love lol.

 

[Crispy4001]

*attempting to change the topic*
Has there been any youtube clips of PM recently aside from Connor's Snake vid?

 

[AeonClock]

*attempting to change the topic*
Has there been any youtube clips of PM recently aside from Connor's Snake vid?

http://www.youtube.com/user/sugarhigh0815
Some decent vids here

 

[Derkis]

The technical barrier of move execution is important, but not because it affords people who enjoy practicing tech-skill a sense of accomplishment as some of you seem to think. What it does do is create room for error, without which the dominance of "broken" strategies is amplified and the opportunity for observation and punishment is diminished.

In the first case, you have some arbitrary technique which when executed perfectly is not necessarily over-centralizing and broken (though it may be), but is at the very least match-up changing. If it is not humanly possible to execute with perfect consistency, then the technical barrier serves to balance the technique while potentially allowing for glimmers of perfection in clutch situations (when certain players are said to go "turbo"). This is a good thing, because it establishes the possibility for very dramatic comebacks, the kind of things which make games exciting.

In the second case, which applies probably to the majority of general "tech skill" that people complain about, requiring a player to be consistent technically doesn't create any new opportunities for that specific player (at least ones that wouldn't be there if all the barriers were removed), but his/her potential mistakes are opportunities for the opponent to capitalize. In this case, being able to recognize and react when your opponent is slipping up technically becomes a necessary skill, which adds another layer to the player to player interaction that wouldn't otherwise exist. Again, this is also important because it provides for a greater variety of comeback situations. In a game between two evenly matched players (mentally) where one player is playing a character with a match-up advantage, having no significant technical barrier increases the probability of the match having a slippery slope style progression (because there's less room to make a comeback).

The presence of more weaknesses, even technical ones, deemphasizes (to whatever degree) the importance of character to character relationship, and instead emphasizes player to player interaction which is at the heart of every competitive game.

 

[Sora-kun]

Holy **** guys.. is this seriously still going on?? It's not getting removed even if Jesus himself descended from heaven and demanded it. Stop arguing with people who bring it up.
It's!
Pointless!!
Seriously.. if someone brings it up again let's just all ignore it please.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Holy **** guys.. is this seriously still going on?? It's not getting removed even if Jesus himself descended from heaven and demanded it. Stop arguing with people who bring it up.
It's!
Pointless!!
Seriously.. if someone brings it up again let's just all ignore it please.

inb4religiousdebatelolol

So what is actually going on in the BR at the moment? Seems kinda quiet around here...

 

[JCaesar]

It's not quiet in the BR, trust me. There's still a lot of work yet to be done.

 

[MarioMan94]

Just put up my application to be a coder. can't wait to work on this if im accepted :3

Quick question: what happens to lucario/mewtwo? Are we gonna make his moves like Mewtwo or turn him into M2 completely? (like with a skin/name/voice) Or is he just gonna be fresh and forget about it.

 

[JCaesar]

Lucario and Mewtwo are not clones by any stretch of the imagination so there is no chance they will be merged. Lucario is going to stay Lucario.

 

[MarioMan94]

gotcha. im also wondering how the other non-melee characters will be changed. but i guess i can wait.

 

[Sora-kun]

inb4religiousdebatelolol

So what is actually going on in the BR at the moment? Seems kinda quiet around here...

Oh god that would be so much wtf