Project M Social Thread

[DMG]

Picto I still dislike, but not nearly as much as the Brawl version. I would get rid of just a fewww transformations at this point. I'm OK with it right now but I think it can be improved on.

Delfino I haven't played on a lot, I don't remember if all the transformations are still present/if anything was changed. Because the stage shifts so much, I dunno who would try to CP it besides someone trying to get a quick edge from the triple W: Walkoffs, Walls, Water. Maybe Jiggs for being able to float around and under so much, Peach as well? Dunno...

 

[Slashy]

Picto I still dislike, but not nearly as much as the Brawl version. I would get rid of just a fewww transformations at this point. I'm OK with it right now but I think it can be improved on.

Delfino I haven't played on a lot, I don't remember if all the transformations are still present/if anything was changed. Because the stage shifts so much, I dunno who would try to CP it besides someone trying to get a quick edge from the triple W: Walkoffs, Walls, Water. Maybe Jiggs for being able to float around and under so much, Peach as well? Dunno...

It's great for characters with amazing rising aerials to take advantage of the constantly moving stage AND the platform that characters can pass through, heavy characters who can time their powerful meteor smashes to score points on the transformations, and mobile characters who can constantly change up their strategy as the stage moves.

I really like this stage

 

[SpiderMad]

Streaming soon . With kirk Oro scythe dla and others www.twitch.tv/kirkiusprime
Spread the link please, please it'll be like 2 min until live: and my furry friend is about to own (dla plays him too, but he's the famous brawl player
we are now live

 

[Kirk]

Bump for justice!

www.twitch.tv/kirkiusprime

 

[batistabus]

Doin' some stream. No big-name players, but in case you're bored and snowed in like we are...

http://www.twitch.tv/batistabus

 

[`dazrin]

Oro, Kirk, Scythe, Rat and Vro are streaming project m: http://www.twitch.tv/kirkiusprime

(sorry batistabus)

 

[batistabus]

It's all good. Streamers gonna stream. xD

 

[Jolteon]

On the topic of streams, we are having a national tournament in the UK tomorrow, and we will be streaming it. Make sure to watch!

edit: Sorry I just realised it's probably still Friday for most of you guys. >__> LOL. To clarify, the tournament is being held on Sunday!

 

[Juushichi]

I think I had about 3 or 4 characters in my lowest tier (D?) or C, one of the two. I know I put my own main GnW in the last one. Highest was S, though. I think I mostly went S->A->B->C. There were a lot of characters in B/C and not many in A.

 

[Overswarm]

http://justin.tv/overswarm

People won't be here playing except for me and Dr.X until later in the day, but there's a stream.

 

[`dazrin]

Hey guys, there is going to be ALOT of tournament stream content for you guys to catch over this weekend.

Today, I will be streaming MITH8 featuring SilentWolf, Sion, BluntedObject, Yakal, Dieslow and MUCH more and Jolteon will be streaming a national featuring all of EU's top players!

http://twitch.tv/ProjectMelee is the place to be for BOTH events! Be sure to follow it and spread the stream around as it is the OFFICIAL Project M Tournament Livestream. Follow @projectmelee on twitter to become notified when the stream goes live. See you guys in the chat! ^_^

 

[Overswarm]

My stream's been acting pretty choppy; haven't tried it with this equipment and it isn't to the quality I'd like. I think I'll just record videos and upload them later instead. :B

 

[bubbaking]

@DMG: From what I've seen, Delfino is still the same, which makes it as bad as, or worse than, the SMB III stage from Melee, IMO. If it was ONLY the main flying stage that remained, the stage would be fine, even if the platform arrangement shifted every now and then to match the different formats available now, but each landing point has incredibly huge camping factors, largely because they give a defensive character tools to 'set up camp' in a certain position and make it extremely difficult for the aggressor to get in without taking huge damage or simply losing his stock. Delfino continually switches from an 'alright neutral-worthy stage' (I'll give Delfino that) to 'camp it out unless you're both aggro' every 30 seconds. The best landing points are probably the 'flattish areas' with water on each side, and even then, slopes cause problems and water camping is very viable (largely because getting out of the water is really hard once you get into it if the aggressor adopts a 'you went out there and now you're not coming back' stance).

/My opinion on Delfino

 

[GaretHax]

@DMG: From what I've seen, Delfino is still the same, which makes it as bad as, or worse than, the SMB III stage from Melee, IMO. If it was ONLY the main flying stage that remained, the stage would be fine, even if the platform arrangement shifted every now and then to match the different formats available now, but each landing point has incredibly huge camping factors, largely because they give a defensive character tools to 'set up camp' in a certain position and make it extremely difficult for the aggressor to get in without taking huge damage or simply losing his stock. Delfino continually switches from an 'alright neutral-worthy stage' (I'll give Delfino that) to 'camp it out unless you're both aggro' every 30 seconds. The best landing points are probably the 'flattish areas' with water on each side, and even then, slopes cause problems and water camping is very viable (largely because getting out of the water is really hard once you get into it if the aggressor adopts a 'you went out there and now you're not coming back' stance).

/My opinion on Delfino

Pretty much this...

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, that edit from "yup this" to "pretty pretty much this".

#ISawThatEdit

 

[GaretHax]

Lolz, that edit from "yup this" to "pretty pretty much this".

This phone >_<

 

[Overswarm]

@DMG: From what I've seen, Delfino is still the same, which makes it as bad as, or worse than, the SMB III stage from Melee, IMO. If it was ONLY the main flying stage that remained, the stage would be fine, even if the platform arrangement shifted every now and then to match the different formats available now, but each landing point has incredibly huge camping factors, largely because they give a defensive character tools to 'set up camp' in a certain position and make it extremely difficult for the aggressor to get in without taking huge damage or simply losing his stock. Delfino continually switches from an 'alright neutral-worthy stage' (I'll give Delfino that) to 'camp it out unless you're both aggro' every 30 seconds. The best landing points are probably the 'flattish areas' with water on each side, and even then, slopes cause problems and water camping is very viable (largely because getting out of the water is really hard once you get into it if the aggressor adopts a 'you went out there and now you're not coming back' stance).

/My opinion on Delfino

Why is this bad? Camping is a legitimate strategy in smash, and many stages (including Final Destination) encourage it.

 

[bubbaking]

Then what's wrong with RF or Skyloft? You have to understand that I was replying to DMG, and he said that their ability to favor campy characters was why he didn't like those stages in a competitive setting. If you also disagree with RF or Skyloft's inclusion for those same reasons, then this applies to you too.

That said, I actually am fine with both RF's and Skyloft's inclusion because they don't move at all and neither of them has large walls on their sides. Delfino breaks all of those rules half the time.

 

[Overswarm]

Then what's wrong with RF or Skyloft? You have to understand that I was replying to DMG, and he said that their ability to favor campy characters was why he didn't like those stages in a competitive setting. If you also disagree with RF or Skyloft's inclusion for those same reasons, then this applies to you too.

That said, I actually am fine with both RF's and Skyloft's inclusion because they don't move at all and neither of them has large walls on their sides. Delfino breaks all of those rules half the time.

There are no "rules". Walk-offs, walls, etc., can all work in a competitive setting. What matters is the result they have. If all walls or all walk-offs have the same results each time that's irrelevant, each stage needs to be reviewed individually.

Having a preferred playstyle is not a reason to ban or legitimize a stage. As much as DMG dislikes the "campy" play, I prefer it myself. I played that way in both Melee and Brawl. There's no damage to the competitive nature of the game, just the amount of fun some people have. I prefer Skyloft to Battlefield any day of the week.

Delfino itself hasn't had "janky" aspects to it since 2008 when people realized what each stage property meant. Kind of like how in PS1 people stopped going into the cavern area and getting shine infinited pretty fast.

 

[DMG]

Not campy that I hate. Campy on big stages I hate. And Delfino imo doesn't come close to those stages, because it shifts enough during the match to at least force both players to get back to a certain area.

As far as Delfino not being janky, the same glitch that happens on Castle Siege and Pokemon Stadium where you fall through the stage occurs. Idk if that's been fixed, but that's definitely an example. Besides that, it's relatively straight forward although I would love to see the stage with a flat stationary "area" and then the platform rises every so often so people fight there. I think that would be interesting and a bit better than the more negative aspects of Delfino shuffling around.

 

[Overswarm]

Not campy that I hate. Campy on big stages I hate. And Delfino imo doesn't come close to those stages, because it shifts enough during the match to at least force both players to get back to a certain area.

As far as Delfino not being janky, the same glitch that happens on Castle Siege and Pokemon Stadium where you fall through the stage occurs. Idk if that's been fixed, but that's definitely an example.

I've only seen that on one transformation but for the life of me I can't remember which one. I do know you can stop it by jumping.

Campy on big stages is fine by me too; my issue is when it becomes the dominant strategy rather than a choice that might be slightly stronger or weaker depending on the stage. SSE Jungle is a stage I'm watching as a 'campy' stage, but I'm not going to make a call until it ends up having video proof.

 

[DMG]

I can make that call and save tournaments the bother (to be fair, that's the only instant ban due to size, Rumble Falls Skyloft etc are less clear). Rumble Falls was shrunked in size from 2.1 correct? If that's true, it's a step in the right direction.

Big stages tend to be dominated by that camping. Again, I don't mind attempting to give Link TL or other characters a slightly better time, but if it comes at the cost of playing Tag due to mobility then it's not worth it.

 

[Overswarm]

I can make that call and save tournaments the bother (to be fair, that's the only instant ban due to size, Rumble Falls Skyloft etc are less clear).

That's being an irresponsible TO. You could also make "the call" that chain grabs or edgeguarding should be banned, which many do.

I've been around a long, long time and I've dealt with a lot of people, organizations, groups, and clubs that think that they know best. 100% of the time they've all been completely oblivious to the whys and whats of what is actually happening.

It's not difficult to actually test things and have solid evidence for them. You can "feel" it's bad or play one game and, upon realizing you have to play differently than on other stages, consider it an instant ban, or even just glance at it and say 'nope', but that makes you the bottom of the barrel as far as TOs go. It's pretty much the only sin a TO can make: "this is banned because... I said so".

Run a smashfest with your buddies and play the camping game where you can only win if you win via time, look at the results. You'll be surprised.

 

[DMG]

SSE Jungle is not going to be a healthy, competitive stage for singles. At all. I'm more than willing to experiment with Norfair Skyloft etc, but that 1 particular stage is awful and it would be a waste to make it legal then ban it down the road, because yes in tournament lame **** happened on it.

It's not a healthy mentality to apply to all stages. SSE Jungle is the exception: it's that friggen huge.

 

[leafbarrett]

SSE Jungle is not going to be a healthy, competitive stage for singles. At all. I'm more than willing to experiment with Norfair Skyloft etc, but that 1 particular stage is awful and it would be a waste to make it legal then ban it down the road, because yes in tournament lame **** happened on it.

It's not a healthy mentality to apply to all stages. SSE Jungle is the exception: it's that friggen huge.

Can you provide video evidence?

And if it turns out that the stage IS actually that big, then I have a really, really simple solution. Horizontally shrink the stage a little. Not that hard.

 

[Overswarm]

SSE Jungle is not going to be a healthy, competitive stage for singles. At all. I'm more than willing to experiment with Norfair Skyloft etc, but that 1 particular stage is awful and it would be a waste to make it legal then ban it down the road, because yes in tournament lame **** happened on it.

It's not a healthy mentality to apply to all stages. SSE Jungle is the exception: it's that friggen huge.

Why is huge bad? If you have actual tournament results being corrupted, sure. But if you're just like "lol its big" you might as well be in the group that bans edgeguarding because it makes them feel bad when they get hit off the stage.

 

[Kati]

Is there a change list for stages? all I can find is the one on smashmods that says kj64 works properly with random stage select.

Is it true that rumble falls is now smaller?

 

[iLink]

Games on SSE Jungle can easily go to timeouts every match if you make it your goal.

 

[DMG]

I was nearly certain Rumble Falls was made a bit smaller in the transition to 2.5

 

[Overswarm]

Can you provide video evidence?

And if it turns out that the stage IS actually that big, then I have a really, really simple solution. Horizontally shrink the stage a little. Not that hard.

We've been playing on it today and the stage is actually pretty small. It has small vertical blast zones and average horizontal ones, the difference is that the actual stage itself is wider than normal, so you can physically walk closer to the edge of the screen.

Preliminary results have found camping to be rather lacking, at least in the matchups we've played (Fox vs. Link, Fox vs. Ivysaur, Sonic vs. Ivysaur, Squirtle vs. Charizard). I've played on stages that actually put the approacher at a disadvantage in Melee (Rumble Falls, Green Greens) and this doesn't actually put the approaching player at a disadvantage.

For starters, the prime camping spots are REALLY close to the blast zones, giving you the same issue that you'd have on a stage like Green Greens. Mess up, you die. Not a quality that makes camping obsolete, but definitely increases the risk.

But the high platforms on the side and right in front of the edge are the camping zones. Hanging out on the bottom floor gives you the additional options of wavelanding on a platform above you to get away, but this is foudn on other stages and is negligible. Hanging out on the bottom floor is pretty much a worse version of camping on battlefield.

So the only thing really left is the high platforms on the side. You have two "modes of escape": dropping to the bottom and running across the stage, or jumping from the top platform towards the center (and any applicable moves).

So far jumping from the top platform doesn't work particularly well. If I DO get past the opponent without getting hit (which isn't entirely difficult), I'm put in the exact same position after I get to the other side. It's a losing proposition for the camping player because he can't attack while fleeing, and has to KEEP fleeing.

It'll take a lot more testing, but I really don't see camping being a "OMG broken" factor on this stage. Possibly the case if it's like, I dunno, Ganondorf vs. Fox or something. I'll have to test specific matchups later, currently I'm just testing across the board against fast characters that can get away.

A stock lead camping is the only thing I can even conceivably see being a dominant strategy, but with the low ceiling and close blast zones I'm not entirely sure this will be the case. It'll take many games to be sure though.

Currently with our preliminary testing it doesn't stand out.

 

[DrinkingFood]

pretty sire some pmbr confirmed that it is the same size

 

[Overswarm]

Is there any list that shows stage sizes?

 

[bubbaking]

Whoever said SSE Jungle is small (or anything other than humongous) isn't playing the same Project M the rest of us are playing. That's all I have to say for now.

 

[Overswarm]

Whoever said SSE Jungle is small (or anything other than humongous) isn't playing the same Project M the rest of us are playing. That's all I have to say for now.

Test the blast zones; it's of average size. You just have more room to walk. It actually has a shorter ceiling than many stages.

 

[MonkUnit]

i know this is a social thread but i think this should take place in the stage q&a and discussion thread

 

[bubbaking]

But the social thread is where the competitive topic of discussion literally switches every day. A couple days ago, it was broken chars, then it was the ledge, then it was tier lists, and now it's stages. We talk about EVERYTHING here!

 

[#HBC | Joker]

his point isn't "you're posting in the wrong place."

his point is "if you posted in the other topic, people looking for discussions about stages would have an easier time finding it there."

 

[bubbaking]

I get that, but I'm really just going along with the flow and the topic for today has already been set. Ideas can be repeated there, I guess.

On the subject of broken things, Diddy's upB is on that list. Thing comes out on Idk what frame, it kills, it has low lag, and it's easily edge-cancelled. Like, I've used that move almost without fail OoS. Even if you get hit, flying barrels are AWESOME! I was playing on MC against an Ivy at a fest and got hit out of it while recovering. Literally, like 5 seconds later, the barrel comes back after travelling in some huge circle outside of the bounds of the camera and hits him offstage, giving me an easy edgeguard. Couldn't stop laughing for, like, 10 minutes straight. There's also no danger to edgeguarding with Diddy, 'cause why not just:
Place banana at edge > jump out wily-nily with some crazy gimp attempt > DJ (staying offstage) and keep trying, even if it's stupid > upB back and still get back to the stage before them (because if they're anywhere close to you, upB will kill them ) with NO LAG if I land on-stage > watch everything just fall into place, almost as if Providence dictated that it must be so. Heck, when I'm coming back after an edgeguard attempt, I purposefully charge the upB longer than necessary in the hopes that the opponent will get too close enough to me so I can BLAAAAAAST OOOOOOOOFF!

 

[Vashimus]

If you pick Jiggs and your opponent counterpicks SSE Jungle, you're gonna have a ****ed up time.

 

[bubbaking]

Or Jiggs could get the lead (preferrably a stock lead) and have an awesome time. Really depends on the MU and whoever inflicts damage first, something that Jiggs shouldn't be pushing or overextending herself for because that's, y'know, how Jiggs works.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/PYWCKRW

Everyone take this

I'm in the middle of this survey and I find this:
"Please rate the following stages for your main character as best as possible, with 5 being the best and 1 being the worst. Please answer for these stages as matchup independent."
The choices range from "Counterpick against my main" to "Counterpick in my advantage". I literally can't answer this question because it literally depends on the MU. I'm answering for Lucario and Lucario has NO bad stages (which I'm putting down on your survey) until you start looking at specific MUs.