Project M Social Thread

[bubbaking]

Kink accuses me of antagonizing needlessly and then he makes dumb posts like that. Go figure.....

Anyway, super late replies:

L-Canceling creates artificial skill barriers and there is no reason not to L-Cancel.


Kappa.

Spoiler

Don't talk about L-canceling. I was just responding to DF's post in a joking manner. I'm posting this spoiler so people know and dont try to continue this tired discussion.

Also, back into hiding I go.

I've just recently begun to agree with this mentality. Now where are those videos?

2.1 Lucario was a lot like Melee Jigglypuff, i.e. everyone claims that they're top tier and super broken but nobody uses them.

This, I've only seen two players using 2.1 Lucario in tournament (one of them obviously being Leffen).

I used him pretty often, just could never get any videos recorded until just very recently.

I used 2.1 Lucario pretty often as well, and I had some videos and a couple streams up.

You know I'm willing to play with you, and then I can get 50% comboed in SG afterward lol

50% combos don't exist in SG, not without a smart reset that you should be watching out for in literally any good fighting game you play. Stop complaing about damage if you're just letting it happen.

This is almost as bad as complaining about Falcon's ability to tech-chase.

 

[ph00tbag]

@Phoot
I'm just not so open minded that I pretend there aren't actual answers to things. Also, I actually ask for a little back-up when somebody makes a claim rather than just accepting it.

So a preemptive preventative mechanic that doesn't really impact gameplay, aside from making turtling require a more balanced degree of forethought relative to its countermeasures (not really a bad thing in and of itself, either), should only be put in place to prevent tactics which are already broken?

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of it being preemptive?

To put it another way, the assertion isn't that ledgestalling is broken. The argument is that we have no way of knowing if some means will be found to make it broken. In light of that, put in a mechanic that prevents ledgestalling from ever being broken, by making it universally beatable by a little patience and a simple dtilt. It's not that hard to figure out, and it's a pretty basic precept of multiplayer game design. It's the peak of closed-mindedness to say that such mechanics should only be put in place if there's provably broken stuff for them to prevent.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Eli, is that Leelue in your sig?

Smooth Criminal

 

[bubbaking]

In light of that, put in a mechanic that prevents ledgestalling from ever being broken, by making it universally beatable by a little patience and a simple dtilt.

Good dtilts already beat planking, though. So do RAR WD ledgehogs. I haven't been keeping up with this thread at all (it's amazing that this topic has survived over 5 pages, though), but I think diminishing returns on edgegrab invincibility is not a good idea, because not only does it hurt your immediate ledge game but it also hurts your options and actions from the ledge. Things like invincible 'ledgedashes' aren't so invincible anymore just because you regrabbed the ledge a couple times while you thought out your next move. That kind of measure would just be counter-intuitive to the complexity we actually want in this game. Even though it's an old game, there are some Melee techs that are still being looked into regarding the ledge (for Samus, at least), but once you start removing invincibility for no reason, those techs become a lot less useful.

 

[Kink-Link5]

50% combos don't exist in SG, not without a smart reset that you should be watching out for in literally any good fighting game you play. Stop complaing about damage if you're just letting it happen.

This is almost as bad as complaining about Falcon's ability to tech-chase.

Wow.

I can't think of very many ways to be a complete c*** than what has been achieved here.

"We can play friendly games that I'm not good at BrandX, like friends in a friendly setting doing friendly things together in a friendly way. "

"You literally have to be trying to lose to be bad at skullgirls"

Is it against the ToS to be an overaggressive ****wad, because this kind of behavior is absolutely and authentically upsetting.

 

[DMG]

What I would do is this (if it's possible to program and doesn't sound very damn easy)

Increments of x edge grabs lower your invincibility by 2-3 frames

So say you make it 3 edge grabs. For every 3 that you do, you will lose 2-3 frames of invincibility. The cycle would be

1 grab -- Starting point, so from here on out
2 grab
3 grab
4 grab -- invincibility shrinks
5 grab
6 grab
7 grab -- invincibility shrinks
8 grab
9 grab
10 grab -- invincibility shrinks

etc

This would make doing it a few times not too bad, and incrementally penalize you so that your invincibility isn't decaying too quickly and instead is done over "chunks". Jiggs would be the only character at that point imo, because eventually going to the edge will be a liability. And you could further split it up based on how much invincibility you will have by merely holding the edge, and/or whether you want to tweak specifically how much they retain after letting go. Impacting total invincibility might be the wrong way to go, but it's just a thought.

 

[iLink]

50% combos don't exist in SG, not without a smart reset that you should be watching out for in literally any good fighting game you play. Stop complaing about damage if you're just letting it happen.

Uh... what? I can easily do a 50% combo. I even have a ToD with my 3 man (girl?) team.

EDIT: ****... there goes my 2000th post

 

[bubbaking]

That sounds reasonable, although the size of the 'increment' would have to be large enough as to only impact serious ledge-stalling. I'm a little confused as to what you mean by "And you could further split it up based on how much invincibility you will have by merely holding the edge, and/or whether you want to tweak specifically how much they retain after letting go." Do you mean you could have two separate invinciblity values, one for just holding on to the ledge and one that dictates how much you have left after you let go?

Is it against the ToS to be an overaggressive ****wad, because this kind of behavior is absolutely and authentically upsetting.

You're "authentically upsetting". Put me back on that ignore list.

@iLink: How much meter are you using for this combo? A ToD sounds very unrealistic.

 

[iLink]

I can do a ToD on a 3v3 ratio with just 2 meters. 3 meters for 3v2. Not sure how reliable it is against a solo team.

50% combos are cake to do, even without meter.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, there you go. Characters are ridiculously strong on a 3-man team, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong), and they can do a lot of damage to each other, especially since they have no life. Against a solo team, I doubt you'd be pulling it off without using, like, all of your possible meter.

Even top-level players don't pull off combos like that. They just go for resets. Granted, resets in SG are very, very, very strong.

 

[DMG]

IF it can be done, you could have 2 situations:

1. Reduction of overall invincibility. Means if you edge stall a ton, eventually grabbing the edge is moot and you are vulnerable quickly after grabbing it.

2. Reduction ONLY of the invincibility a character retains once letting go of the edge. So if a person edge stalls a ton, they can still grab the edge and hang safely as normal, but letting go will lose it on the spot/lose it quickly.


There's also the alternative of changing how quickly or slowly you can react after grabbing the edge. Perfect example: compare how quickly you can do an action after grabbing the edge in Melee vs the time it takes in Brawl (non tether/Pika). Characters normally are "stuck" on the edge in brawl for quite a bit, something like 26ish frames IIRC (again, tethers and Pika are the exception). In Melee/PM, this is drastically lower.


Changing how long characters are "stuck" on the edge to combat ledge stalling would not impact total invincibility, and would basically be a way of slowing them down + narrowing down how much invincibility they retain when they try to drop down. If you have 30 frames hypothetically of invincibility, but 20+ get eaten up by the increasing "edge grab lag", then your ability to stall is definitely impacted. Again, I am not a wizard on these things. I don't claim to know if they can program this or not, I'm just saying that changing those things would be ways of addressing edge stalling without making every single edge grab detrimental.

 

[iLink]

Well, there you go. Characters are ridiculously strong on a 3-man team, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong), and they can do a lot of damage to each other, especially since they have no life. Against a solo team, I doubt you'd be pulling it off without using, like, all of your possible meter.

Even top-level players don't pull off combos like that. They just go for resets. Granted, resets in SG are very, very, very strong.

The more characters on your team, the less damage you do and the less health you have. Solo teams are rare because most people opt to have at least 1 assist as support.

I could show you top players pulling off combos like that if you want

 

[bubbaking]

Just looked it up:
Team of 2 vs Team of 1 or 3 - The Team of 2 gets 115% Health, 130% Damage.

Team of 1 vs Team of 2 or 3 - The Team of 1 gets 175% Health, 200% Damage.

Even Teams - Both Teams get 100% Health and Damage, except 3 vs 3 which uses the Ratio 2 settings (to ensure matches don't run too long).

In other words, 3-man teams have an insane damage output which is balanced by the fact that, well, there are three characters on each team. I was more referring to a ToD that 'ends the round' since you can vary your team size and I highly doubt you'd be ToDing any solo character.

Painwheel doesn't need any assist. My peacock does, though.....

Edit: Ok, this picture is so much easier to understand. That chart confused me....

Edit 2: I take that back.

 

[iLink]

I think you are confused somewhere. A 3 man team has the lowest damage output lol.

 

[bubbaking]

From what that chart is saying, not against another 3-man team. The game literally buffs each character's damage output when fighting against another 3-man team. Still mostly confused though, so I'm leaving that topic.....

Now to read DMG's post.

 

[DMG]

Bro, nobody reads my posts. They will give you a headache intellectually 50% of the time and they tend to be jumbled/scrambled. The other 50%, I'm nair planing with Falcon.

The other other 50% is finding new Wifi friends, I'm rotating through characters to appease my friends and let them have more fun.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I always read your posts, DMG. I also happen to like them 99% of the time.

Hell, you're one of the few posters I pay any mind to when it comes to anything in vBrawl. lol

Smooth Criminal

 

[Kink-Link5]

Which 50% is Charizard's nair covered by?

(Hint: All five 50%s)

 

[DMG]

In front, it covers too late. Unviable!!!

 

[Kink-Link5]

Maybe we could make sonic less polarizing by making all his viable mobility options forced 2 frames slower so they cause SD's by him flying off quickly.

I think this would make him about 50% less centralizing.

 

[traffic.]

Skullgirls Social Thread

 

[Spiffykins]

Maybe we could make sonic less polarizing by making all his viable mobility options forced 2 frames slower so they cause SD's by him flying off quickly.

I think this would make him about 50% less centralizing.

I'm pretty sure you've made this joke before.

 

[DMG]

He still wears cute bows in his hair


You can't stop him

 

[Kink-Link5]

The black bow works best against my haystack yellow hair, but the brown one works really well to clip into my hair in a ponytail.

The red one is pretty much exclusive to my Medicine costume.

 

[DMG]

Exactly

Beat that Spiffykins

 

[SpiderMad]

I could notice Up-air/Bair not getting me out of combos, along with the weight making him get more hitstun (weight reduces knockback which reduces hitstun indirectly)

Spoiler

"-Ike's Neutral/Forward/Back/Up/Down Air body hitboxes adjusted to be smaller in size like his ground attacks to aid in landing the hilt sweetspot"
" -Ike's Weight is put back to vBrawl weight (a slight decrease in weight) "
http://smashmods.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=6266

Ike is now the biggest combo sack, and wields only the fear of getting hit with single sweet spot hitboxes. His Nair is more useful than his Fair now for about everything, I don't like that either.

I'm sure people didn't recognize this, as much as the many other untalked about things that were changed: it's to the point there's no need mention the monstrosities of stupid changes (this one for example, increased his combo sackness to unreachable heights).

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm not even quite sure what a spiffykins is.

I assume they promple amidst the krittlebrushes though

 

[DMG]

I... I guess man

 

[Kink-Link5]

I could write for Lewis Carroll

 

[Spiffykins]

I'm not even quite sure what a spiffykins is.

I assume they promple amidst the krittlebrushes though

It's a me.

 

[Beorn4200]

I could notice Up-air/Bair not getting me out of combos, along with the weight making him get more hitstun (weight reduces knockback which reduces hitstun indirectly)

Spoiler

"-Ike's Neutral/Forward/Back/Up/Down Air body hitboxes adjusted to be smaller in size like his ground attacks to aid in landing the hilt sweetspot"
" -Ike's Weight is put back to vBrawl weight (a slight decrease in weight) "
http://smashmods.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=6266

Ike is now the biggest combo sack, and wields only the fear of getting hit with single sweet spot hitboxes. His Nair is more useful than his Fair now for about everything, I don't like that either.

I'm sure people didn't recognize this, as much as the many other untalked about things that were changed: it's to the point there's no need mention the monstrosities of stupid changes (this one for example, increased his combo sackness to unreachable heights).

Ike has huge disjointed hitbubbles... What are you complaining about? Go look at Links hitbox and frame data thread, and be happy his hitbubbles actually cover his sword.

That is a nice balanced weakness for Ike to have. Once someone can get past his massive disjointed hitbubbles he gets wrecked. Sounds fair.

 

[SpiderMad]

Ike has huge disjointed hitbubbles... What are you complaining about? Go look at Links hitbox and frame data thread, and be happy his hitbubbles actually cover his sword.

That is a nice balanced weakness for Ike to have. Once someone can get past his massive disjointed hitbubbles he gets wrecked. Sounds fair.

Link's Nair comes out on Frame 4, Ike's Bair comes out frame 7 and Up-air frame 9. Getting hit by anything other than the sweet spot is a tap on the cheek, Ike's probably more in danger after it then you are: his primarily weak disjointed moves are slow.

 

[Magus420]

Apparently about as strong as Ganon's b-air is a tap on the cheek now.

 

[SpiderMad]

Are you even playing this character anymore Magus, I've haven't seen you play him since this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKCbqSYOMnM

How do you go about spending months designing and playing Ike, only to realize you were apparently way off the mark somehow? Same goes with Lucario.

And was the hitlag reduction he use to have 1/3 reduced or 1/2 reduced hitlag?

 

[ph00tbag]

diminishing returns on edgegrab invincibility is not a good idea, because not only does it hurt your immediate ledge game but it also hurts your options and actions from the ledge.

Well, that's kind of the point. I shouldn't have to explain how aggressive play inherently, and in any form of competition, is rarely safe, and usually incurs the greater cost. The way you balance that is by giving cost to avoidant behavior. Basically, the player who is consistently playing passively ought to have fewer options than the player who is patiently pressing the advantage.

DMG offers a pretty good compromise, although I would be inclined to be more Draconian once the player has grabbed the ledge three times, since that's plenty more times than one usually has before using the same option in a mix-up gets ineffective otherwise.

 

[bubbaking]

DMG's posts are always a fun read.

I'd play against you online.........if I had 2.5 Wifi. As of now, my 'Wifi SD card' still has just 2.1 on it.

Uhh, out of the 3 options you presented, I really liked the 2nd one. The 3rd one seemed like it might slow down the game at the edge or make it kind of......clunky. Idk, having 'forced lag' at the edge sounds kinda unappealing.

Edit: This is all @DMG.

 

[BrandX]

Skullgirls Social Thread

I wish people would use it more Everyone is just ignoring it in the lighthouse section

It could use some more discussion in there.

 

[bubbaking]

Well.......this is Smashboards.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Play Smash.

 

[Magus420]

@Mad, I've been picking up a new character each time I play for a while. I usually focus on who I've been playtesting. I played him last time I streamed for a bit though.

Anyway, I feel like you're exaggerating quite a lot here and trying to blame stuff/john using the changelist as a guide. I said it before, but lower weight does not make you more comboable by anything other than weight dependent speed throws. There is none of this indirectly less comboable by being heavier because you take less knockback at the same percents nonsense. That same thing also keeps you within combo range for longer. More knockback =/= More comboable. Without looking at it as a whole I could argue and say lighter actually makes you harder to combo because you get sent too far to reach at earlier percents than if you were heavy. Fall speed (gravity and terminal velocity) actually does affect how comboable you are.

Ike's non-sweetspot b-air is really strong. It is a little stronger than Ganon's inside hit of b-air, having more BKB and slightly less KBG because of the 1 dmg difference. The difference between old non-tip and new non-sweetspot non-tip is very small when looking at kill percents, and is pretty much negligible for what you're talking about (safe on hit). He is not Roy like you want to make it sound. Are you even playing this character anymore? =P

That depends on whether they actually were way off the mark. You could ask the same thing about several other characters, even if the word count on their changelist isn't as high.

It was 1/2 hitlag. A leftover from when he was awful so he at least had good on block going for him: QD was unusably slow to start and went nowhere unless charged, animations/hitboxes sucked, etc.

 

[BrandX]

Well.......this is Smashboards.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Play Smash.

Understandable. I wont argue with that.

Btw, I think charizard is going to be my main. He is so fun to play. Also he is the only character I dont constantly kill myself with.