Project M Social Thread

[Overswarm]

If you pick Jiggs and your opponent counterpicks SSE Jungle, you're gonna have a ****ed up time.

You mean if they pick SSE Jungle and you pick Jiggs, right?

Does anyone have any videos of Jungle with camping issues?

 

[Overswarm]

"Please rate the following stages for your main character as best as possible, with 5 being the best and 1 being the worst. Please answer for these stages as matchup independent."
The choices range from "Counterpick against my main" to "Counterpick in my advantage". I literally can't answer this question because it literally depends on the MU. I'm answering for Lucario and Lucario has NO bad stages (which I'm putting down on your survey) until you start looking at specific MUs.

You are supposed to be answering in a vacuum. Marth loves him some Yoshi's Story but against Bowser it is significantly less tilted in his favor. This is just supposed to be for your character alone.

 

[bubbaking]

Actually, I know one. Hold on a sec. It's from 2.1, but it still gets the idea across.

Edit: Here you go.
Dr. PeePee(Fox) vs Stingers(Charizard) 4
Yes, we all know Zard was 'bad' in 2.1, but Stingers managed to keep this match close (he actually had the lead) until they both hit their third stock. Then PP started DD and laser camping and Zard got blown up. Part of the problem was Fox but a large part of the problem was also that particular stage.

Edit 2: The camping literally starts when Stingers loses his second stock (and his lead).

 

[Vashimus]

You mean if they pick SSE Jungle and you pick Jiggs, right?

Well, I'll shut up now and say it depends on the character I'm facing. Sonic immediately comes to mind.

 

[bubbaking]

The funny thing is PP was actually pretty aggro that match. I can't even begin to think how hellish that MU could have been if Zard was facing a campy Fox. GGs.

I also don't see that problem being resolved for 2.5 Zard. Hitting hard wasn't exactly something that 2.1 Zard lacked.

 

[DMG]

That video is really poor at showing it Bubba LOL. PP went in

 

[bubbaking]

Like I said, PP was aggro, but there were certain distinguishable points during the match where PP was blatantly DD camping or shooting lasers from a bit of a distance. What I'm saying is that if Fox can be that dangerous doing those things in moderation, what if a proficient (yes, the Fox must be good, not just a campy mid-level guy), super-defensive Fox came around who did nothing but shoot lasers from far-range and start DDing the moment you got close, and then killed you when you went in (if he didn't go in first)? If that match had stayed close, I can almost guarantee that we would have seen some serious stage problems. That match was simply the first one that opened my eyes to the potential problem (I was completely fine with SSE Jungle until long after that video, mind you, but I started considering possibilities). Like, what if we had seen M2K vs Stingers on that stage instead? We could very possibly have witnessed a 4-stock instead of a somewhat close match.

@Overswarm: I took your poll. 7 starters (YiB, PS2, SV, BF, YS, DL64, and FoD). Everything else was a CP, except for SSE Jungle (banned). Tier list is the same as my personal one in the Tier List Spec. thread except I put Diddy in S Tier with the spacees and Sheik this time.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

My buddies took SSE: Jungle off of random when I played luigi against marth there, and I just wavedashed around hitting him with fireballs. It was a pretty campy match, but I ended up losing the match anyway cuz I kept retreating to the edges, and if I made a mistake I'd eat a tipper.

I like the stage though. I can see why people think "it's too big", but it's not like, Hyrule Temple or anything. It's a good stage for me with Wario.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm actually more fine with Hyrule Temple than I am with SSE Jungle, but my reasons are probably only personal.

I feel like you are being too gracious as well Bubba, especially with the way that the survey posed how to rate the characters into the tiers. C and above being tournament viable. I really don't think every character currently is, do you?

Answering this directly: Yes I do, with the exception of possibly G&W, but many people here don't believe that he's the worst character (I don't see it, but w/e) and if he really isn't, then IMO, every character is currently tournament-viable.

Being 'shut down' by one or two bad MUs doesn't make a char unviable in tourney because most chars suffer this problem and that's what secondaries are for. There are way too many characters for us to be saying that every tourney viable char should have no really bad MUs. Heck, Doc in Melee has proven time and time again that he's tourney viable and he gets messed up badly by Sheik and Marth (similar cases can be made for the ICs, Ganon, and Samus). I strongly believe that there are no MUs in P:M that are worse than 7:3 (and even those are pretty few), so as such, there really aren't any 'unviable' characters.

So for the sake of being open-minded, I have every character listed as viable, but even if I was 'close-minded', I would only have put Game in the 'unviable category' anyway. I'm also one of the few people who thought that ROB and Zard (and Ness) were being severely underrated in 2.1, so that probably adds to the rift between my opinion of tourney viability and yours.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Hyrule Temple is so much worse though :/ It's got a cave of life, permanent walls, circle camping. All it needs is a permanent walk-off, something to cause the stage to change randomly, and some kind of killer hazard and it'll have everything that people generally don't want on stages.

SEE:J doesn't have any of that stuff, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't be accepted as legal.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm pretty sure that SSE:J has permanent walls. I also don't see how you can successfuly circle camp on Hyrule against any competent player, but like I said, my reasons are personal. Actually, I would think that 'circle camping' is easier on SSE Jungle with certain chars, thanks to how those high plats are positioned (and how big all of them are).

 

[ELI-mination]

I get that, but I'm really just going along with the flow and the topic for today has already been set. Ideas can be repeated there, I guess.

On the subject of broken things, Diddy's upB is on that list. Thing comes out on Idk what frame, it kills, it has low lag, and it's easily edge-cancelled. Like, I've used that move almost without fail OoS. Even if you get hit, flying barrels are AWESOME! I was playing on MC against an Ivy at a fest and got hit out of it while recovering. Literally, like 5 seconds later, the barrel comes back after travelling in some huge circle outside of the bounds of the camera and hits him offstage, giving me an easy edgeguard. Couldn't stop laughing for, like, 10 minutes straight. There's also no danger to edgeguarding with Diddy, 'cause why not just:
Place banana at edge > jump out wily-nily with some crazy gimp attempt > DJ (staying offstage) and keep trying, even if it's stupid > upB back and still get back to the stage before them (because if they're anywhere close to you, upB will kill them ) with NO LAG if I land on-stage > watch everything just fall into place, almost as if Providence dictated that it must be so. Heck, when I'm coming back after an edgeguard attempt, I purposefully charge the upB longer than necessary in the hopes that the opponent will get too close enough to me so I can BLAAAAAAST OOOOOOOOFF!

First of all,

"I've used that move almost without fail OoS."
-> This is the fault of your opponents not punishing you. Up-b OoS with Diddy Kong is among the less safe up-b OoS options in the game. Shine OoS with all spacies is more safe, Snake's cypher OoS is more safe, Marth's dolphin slash OoS is more safe, Donkey Kong's up-b OoS is more safe, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's up-b OoS are both more safe, Link's up-b OoS is more safe, Bowser's up-b OoS is more safe... and this is all excluding other non up-b options that are still more safe, like Mario's usmash, Sheik's nair, etc.
There are some other characters with less safe up-b OoS options like maybe Peach, Wario, Pikachu, etc., but I would say that if you're getting away with Diddy Kong's up-b OoS "almost without fail", and are using that to support your argument that Diddy Kong's up-b is broken, I would consider that extremely ignorant. And largely the fault of your opponents.

The barrel incident you described seems rather uncommon. But for the most part, there is a slight risk in attacking Diddy's up-b in that a barrel will break off and potentially hit you. It's always been that way. I would never consider that broken though. And it was never ridiculous enough to warrant not attempting to hit Diddy out of his up-b. Bringing up a situation like that slightly tempts me to bring up the countless situations where I attacked Diddy Kong out of his up-b repeatedly and avoided the barrel 100% of the time, but I wouldn't think that's relevant, and nor should you.

"Place banana at edge > jump out wily-nily with some crazy gimp attempt > DJ (staying offstage) and keep trying, even if it's stupid > upB back and still get back to the stage before them (because if they're anywhere close to you, upB will kill them ) with NO LAG if I land on-stage > watch everything just fall into place, almost as if Providence dictated that it must be so."

-> The fact that you'd even think this is an argument to support that Diddy's up-b is broken is really confusing to me. Are you saying that you can jump out randomly offstage with Diddy and throw out attacks without any thought, and then just up-b back to the stage from anywhere? You might as well say that about Jigglypuff, Pit, and Sonic. But the truth is you can't do this kind of thing when your opponent is at least decent and has some experience against you and/or the character you are using. Because throwing out random edgeguards may work against your friends, but I wouldn't exactly consider this a foolproof strategy let alone evidence for the broken-ness of Diddy Kong's up-b. By the way, there is a low amount of landing lag on his up-b (4 frames I believe), not "NO LAG". It was really bad before release during testplay when Diddy's up-b had more landing lag; His recovery was absolutely awful. He was the most free thing in the world to edgeguard. He NEEDS that low landing lag.

"Heck, when I'm coming back after an edgeguard attempt, I purposefully charge the upB longer than necessary in the hopes that the opponent will get too close enough to me so I can BLAAAAAAST OOOOOOOOFF!"

Lol ok.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Trying to install homebrew but every method i've tried (a whole 2) has ended with stopping at the black screen with white text as soon as the "Valid ELF image detected." text appears. What am I doing wrong.

 

[DMG]

Tried Smashstack? That seems like a foolproof way to get homebrew

 

[DrinkingFood]

yeah that and letterbomb
both yielded the exact same frustration

 

[DMG]

Did you follow it to a "T"? What Wii model/system update are you at?

No SDHC card? 2 GB or less, no custom stages, only insert the SD card once Brawl is running, etc?

Make sure the .elf file(Im assuming bootmii/hackmii right?) is in the right place and isn't corrupted.

Dunno what else, I definitely recommend Smashstack though.

 

[bubbaking]

My "NO LAG" was an intended hyperbole. Earlier in my post, you can see that I said Diddy's upB has "low lag". Anything 10 frames (WL lag) or less is extremely short. Regular landing lag (just jump up and land without doing anything) is somewhere from 2-4 frames, I believe.

My argument about the edgeguarding thing is this:
Usually, when a characters goes out and botches an edgeguard (or in the case that I presented, two consecutive attempts), the opponent can get back before the edgeguarder and punish him for trying or at least recover successfully. Diddy is different because his upB goes so far (it still has decent distance, even with a tap) and has such little landing lag, and a lot of the time, the opponent is actually taking great care to avoid being around Diddy because the upB comes out extremely quickly, it covers him really well, and it kills, leading to Diddy usually getting back before the one recovering, even after a total fail. The act of going offstage for a gimp is supposed to be high risk, high reward. Diddy, in my experience, turns it into low (read: no) risk, high reward.

Yes, the same could be said of Sonic, Pit, and Jiggs, but the major differences comes in how good those characters also are on-stage. Diddy is a beast who can pretty easily switch from defensive play to offensive play on a dime and he excels at both. Sonic, Pit, and Jiggs fail in that area in some way or another. Sonic has no priority, Pit I'm starting to feel suffers from frame issues (not sure why, though), and Jiggs can't just go in or she'll get blown up. Diddy's on-stage presence is already really good and you gave him a good recovery on top of that. Don't forget that I played the same 'old Diddy' that you did, and I honestly thought it would have been fine if he kept a somewhat mediocre recovery in exchange for his excellence on-stage. The spacees are also pretty "free" to edgeguard, but only if you can get them offstage in the first place.

Admittedly, the upB is just one of a whole bunch of traits that, together, make Diddy extremely darn good. If you asked me, I would say that the combination of his sideB and his upB make him almost too good. Maybe throw his downB into that mix. They're his "shines" so to speak. To be completely honest, I don't think Diddy has any bad moves (which is good) and I'd say that his worst would be........I guess nair. That move's pretty janky.

Now, I'm aware that my opinion of 'good balance' is different from what the PMBR's seems to be. I think every character should have great strengths but clear weaknesses that can be taken advantage of (aka High/Mid Tier). The PMBR (from what I can see) wants everyone to be spacee level (Top/High Tier). If that's the case, I think you've succeeded (as you did with Lucario and possibly Ike beforehand). I'm saying Diddy's broken, but if the goal is to make everyone broken, then great. I just don't think some of the actions taken so far have actually been working towards that, even with 'sensical design' in mind.

But you know, to me it doesn't really matter. Just as I did with Lucario in 2.1, I'm picking up Diddy now. I recognized the really good stuff and the potential he has, so I'm going to use him. If he stays this way, that's great. If he changes, I won't really be surprised.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

.....just 4 frames? Lol you act like thats a lot. I played some of the test versions of diddy, and his recovery was bad not because he had lag, thats natural thing for a recovery to have, it was the lack of control and the way it interacted with stages. It was pretty laughable at times, if you even thought about touching the stage you pretty much exploded. Diddy's recovery isn't broken, thats an extreme thing to say, but its way to safe when he lands on the stage, especially considering the amount of distance, control, and mix up potential he can get with it by using his side b.

 

[Overswarm]

I don't have any Diddy's to play against, but why wouldn't you just hit him out of his up+b? If you're in a position to punish, just... hit 'em out of it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

ok so i tried letterbomb again (twice) and after the valid elf image detected it gave me "exception 0700 occured!" followed by what looks like lines of code.

and trying smash stack gave me the same thing as last time.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Where are there permanent walls on SSE:J? Are you referring to the sides of the stage? Cuz that.. doesn't really count. That's not really what I meant, anyway. I'm talking about onstage walls, like the kind that promote onstage camping, or allowed infinites prior to PM. Stuff like what's on Hyrule Castle 64. People don't like those, but they don't even exist on SSE:J.

 

[DrinkingFood]

why does installing homebrew seem to work flawlessly for everyone but me >.<
god damn if I can't do this how am I ever gonna get SDR working?

 

[bubbaking]

I don't have any Diddy's to play against, but why wouldn't you just hit him out of his up+b? If you're in a position to punish, just... hit 'em out of it.

If you're in a position to punish, sure. I never said it was impossible or even hard to hit him out of it, if you're given that chance, but there are a couple problems here:

• Diddy can sweetspot the ledge from a decent distance and he can sweetspot it backwards. Not a big deal.
• Diddy's upB has a pretty good hitbox. It's hard to hit it with a lot of characters without trading with it, and it hits hard, hard enough to put you far enough away from the ledge that he'll probably get back if he wasn't at high %'s. A bigger deal, but not by much.
• Diddy's upB can hug walls, making it awkward to edgeguard. I don't know how familiar you are with fighting spacees, but when they're in a position to be edgeguarded, they do this and it suddenly makes their Foxfire/bird a bit troublesome. They usually end up sweetspotting the ledge and if they go over a little bit, they hit from an awkward angle. Trying to edgehog or gimp offstage also is a little troublesome because it's essentially a decent hitbox moving slowly up a wall. Still not a big deal.
• You're forced to work on Diddy's timer. He controls how long he charges (slowing down his descent while doing so) and he controls the path he takes. The upB moves fairly quickly and he can alter his path mid-flight. Edgeguarding the spacees is easy because once they upB, they're forced to go through a constant amount of start-up and after that start-up, their path is 100% linear, making them easy to react to. Diddy bypasses those rules and becomes a bit unpredictable. Bigger deal, and by a noticeable amount.
• Hitting Diddy out of his upB causes his barrels to fly off on a random path. This path isn't straight either. They can turn randomly and completely circular paths are actually quite common. These barrels have a good bit of KB so getting hit by one will put you away far enough for Diddy to recover, usually. This is where Diddy's recovery gets annoying to deal with.
• If all of the above doesn't save Diddy (and it won't a lot of the time), Diddy can just go over you for the stage. If what Eli said is true, this move only has 4 frames of landing lag (it feels a little longer to me, though; maybe around 10-ish). In that case, the upB is nigh nonpunishable once it lands. Diddy also slides a LOT when he lands with his upB. What does this mean? Easy edge-cancels off of platforms. This is where Diddy's recovery starts to become a bit of a big deal.

Tbh, Diddy's recovery, IMO, doesn't start to get silly until you hit that last point I mentioned.

 

[DMG]

ok so i tried letterbomb again (twice) and after the valid elf image detected it gave me "exception 0700 occured!" followed by what looks like lines of code.

and trying smash stack gave me the same thing as last time.

Again though, do you have a compatible SD card/non SDHC/2 GB or under? Did you redownload the .elf file to make sure it's not corrupted? From what I've searched, it sounds like you have the right wii system update version and everything goes fine except the actual .elf file is ****ing up during the dump. Just to make sure though, double check that you aren't using a SD card that's too big or incompatable, redownload the .elf and don't just remove it from the computer. Right click the SD card/on your computer and safely eject it to avoid any issues with that crap. Make sure read/write lock isn't turned on, etc

 

[ELI-mination]

No I'm not acting like 4 frames is a lot. I'm saying it was more before and that was awful, and when we completely elminated the lag it was absurd too. The way it is now is a healthy amount I think. And I have tons of Diddy experience in P:M and I play at high level.

Also, @ bubblequeen, yes Diddy has a pretty good onstage game. So do those other characters. Diddy doesn't have anything nearly as good as shine (Nobody does, really, except a case can be made for Snake's up-b or Bowser's up-b I guess, even though they're still not as good).

Also @ overswarm, yes I agree. Just hit Diddy out of his recovery. It's....rather easy lol. I don't really understand all this "broken" talk.

 

[bubbaking]

@ bubblequeen

That actually doesn't sound too bad now that Squirt is out.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Lol at bubba teaching OS how to edgeguard/recover.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I know for a fact my SD isn't the problem since I use it for Project:M (removed the files for now though before formatting). I'll try redownloading the files.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm teaching him how Diddy recovers because he admitted himself that he doesn't play against Diddys, lolz. That's why he asked that question in the first place. I never said anywhere that I'm teaching him how to edgeguard in general and I never assumed that he needed that kind of help.

 

[DrinkingFood]

bubba
wat r u doin
bubba
stahp

 

[DMG]

I know for a fact my SD isn't the problem since I use it for Project:M (removed the files for now though before formatting). I'll try redownloading the files.

I don't have any experience with letterbomb so I can't in depth help you much there. I'd definitely redownload the .elf stuff and doublecheck everything is in the proper location on the SD card. I haven't had to add homebrew since the old days, but I can't imagine stuff changed much for SD loading methods.

One quick question though: even though you don't have homebrew installed, did you add or fool around with the Wii IOS's? A few people didn't have homebrew, but had their IOS's changed or toyed with and they were getting in the way (95% of the time it was a used Wii that a prior owner had and deleted homebrew/other stuff before selling it).

 

[DrinkingFood]

Wii was new when we bought it. Haven't done anything to it.
All I need is to copy the boot.elf and private folder to the SD card right? The tutorials said that and it's worked for them and obviously plenty of the people that have watched it have had it work as well...

 

[bubbaking]

If you're trying to install SD Remix................shouldn't you be troubleshooting with the SDR dev crew?

 

[DrinkingFood]

What do they have to do with homebrew?

Spoiler

Correct answer: Nothing- I have to install homebrew before I can even start using their guide

 

[DMG]

I'll just give you the checklist for Smashstack. I really don't wanna fool with letterbomb.

Get rid of custom stages on the Wii

If you have custom stages on the SD, will have a private folder. Rename that folder to whatever else to get it out of the way

Download smashstack, and put that "new" private folder on the root

Get an .elf file and have that on the root

Right before you go to stage builder, add SD card. When you go there, the Wii will read the "new" private folder with the Smashstack and should install/use the .elf file perfectly.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Did all that exactly. srsly wtf

 

[DMG]

Then your Wii was abused in the factory as a child and I have no further comment

 

[Vashimus]

Aaaaaaaaand scene.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Those two posts were priceless. Lol

Smooth Criminal

 

[bubbaking]

What do they have to do with homebrew?

Spoiler

Correct answer: Nothing- I have to install homebrew before I can even start using their guide

If the SDR dev team made a mod, and it utilizes Homebrew, then odds are they need to know how to install and use Homebrew, lolz!

Edit: DMG's post is solid gold, omg.