Project M Social Thread

[leafbarrett]

Not much hope for you then, leafbarrett. It'll be easier for you to learn the new technique with a GC controller instead. But even so, people who use the GC controller still encounter this problem due to the way they press.

No, I AM using a GC controller. That problem aside, I still think that a single midair dodge shouldn't leave you helpless. If the problem is that being able to repeatedly dodge in midair makes the game too defensive, then I don't see why simply restricting the player to a single midair dodge wouldn't fix that. It shouldn't be too difficult to do, either. The UpBs for Sonic, Snake, and them use something similar, just with the UpB action instead of the Dodge action. I'd write up some PSA code myself but I'm not very good at working with actions.

 

[Kink-Link5]

A part of it isn't just that multiple air dodges could be overly defensive (There's no such thing), but that it makes the action less dedicated than in Melee. There's less risk to air dodging and having the ending of it get punished if it just goes into a non-airdodge fall state but still lets you do whatever aerials or jumps or shines you want.

I mean, it might be worth exploring having a large "no action" window from an air dodge that eventually lets you act out after falling for quite a while helpless, but it would not really fit the "Melee analogue" goal of the project.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Even one air-dodge that doesn't leave you in special fall will greatly boost defensive play. It allows for a player to much more easily be able to reach the ground when they are in the air above their opponent (while recovering high, being juggled, etc.), which changes how the game is played pretty significantly.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Beat you to the punch PC

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Well, what we said focused on a slightly different thing, so it's all right... XD

 

[Kink-Link5]

There's also a fairly simple coding way to avoid the "issue" of accidental airdodges from moving off an edge while lying down. If moving off an edge in this state, entering tumble, rather than regular fall, would prevent an air dodge while allowing jumps/other actions to recover.

It still wouldn't be a melee analogue, but it's something that might be worth exploring.

 

[leafbarrett]

Then a short period of helplessness, like 15-20 frames or so. You could do that just by editing the subaction and animation to stretch it out longer if you wanted to, though I dunno how well that would work alongside the Melee airdodge float... mechanic... thingy. And before you say 15 frames isn't enough, I've seen you guys play and theorysmash. 3-4 frames makes a huge difference in gameplay at the level that you guys play at; hell, it makes a significant difference at the level I play at. 15 frames is practically a lifetime. It's certainly more than enough time for the opponent to hop up and smack you out of the air.

I mean, it might be worth exploring having a large "no action" window from an air dodge that eventually lets you act out after falling for quite a while helpless, but it would not really fit the "Melee analogue" goal of the project.

I thought the general consensus was to make this a Melee 2.0, not a Melee clone. The engine doesn't have to be an exact replica of Melee's to be a good Melee 2.0. I mean, the characters certainly aren't; I don't see why the engine is any different in that respect. If there's a potentially better way to go about something, then shouldn't it be worth looking into instead of writing it off because "it's not Melee"?

 

[Kink-Link5]

15-20 frames is less than many moves' recovery frames. Meaning air dodging and having free action after 20 frames is still enough to outright avoid and punish an attack in a way far distant than any technique that exists in Melee, especially for being in an air state, an otherwise relatively dedicated position.

15-20 frames is a lot for some things, not all. Yes it is enough to punish in blind use, but that's not the same thing as being "a life time" concerning overall gameplay. Somewhere between 30 and 60 frames is more reasonable if the goal is just to avoid azendashes and other similar things.

 

[Oro?!]

Cuz they be spoiled from dat 2.5

So am I. I only play 2.5 nowadays. Most logical thing I heard was "why should we bother representing your game if the backroom members won't."

Rat enters everything in 2.1 and still hypes it even though Sonic is a different character altogether in 2.5. Just saying.

 

[9Kplus1]

Cuz they be spoiled from dat 2.5

Same here. Hurry up and give us Ivysaur so I can start properly running the timer vs *****s

 

[leafbarrett]

15-20 frames is less than many moves' recovery frames. Meaning air dodging and having free action after 20 frames is still enough to outright avoid and punish an attack in a way far distant than any technique that exists in Melee, especially for being in an air state, an otherwise relatively dedicated position.

20 frames after the dodge ends, not considering the period during which you are already made vulnerable in the air dodge (an additional... 20 frames? 25 frames? it varies). I don't know many recoveries that require 3/4 of a second to recover from.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from, but the point of an airdodge that leads into downward motion occurs before the entirety of an airdodge is carried out. I mean to say, you fall for 30-60 frames and can act after that total time falling. From a coding standpoint, the simplest way to do so would be to just have air dodges last startup+active+inactive+30 to 60 frames of falling without the technical "special fall" state.

But this is a silly conversation about a code that doesn't exist in the first place.

 

[MonkUnit]

Oro, I didn't enter the PM tournament because I didn't have enough money to enter.

 

[leafbarrett]

Humor me. You guys theorysmash all the time in this topic, so give me the chance to.

I'm getting the numbers straight from the moveset files. The special fall doesn't trigger until the animation ends, which is roughly 20-25 frames after the intangibility has worn off. The character's still technically helpless, but they haven't yet entered the "helpless fall" action.
And if it's simpler to code it that way, then my other statement about extending the duration of the dodge animation is even more valid.

 

[Oro?!]

Oro, I didn't enter the PM tournament because I didn't have enough money to enter.

That's a legitimate excuse but I would've paid for you guys if that was the issue

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

It was much less refined than that. Animations were off, the grab boxes didn't have enough disjoint (otherwise something similar that made Marth's spacie chain grab less functional because Marth couldn't grab targets somewhat behind him), wavedashing/air dodging could be done with light presses, et cetera.

That's the point, which is why I put "just like Melee" in quotations. Project M wasn't and isn't Melee perfect, that's why there's so much work being done on the physics oddities. The little changes really do add up from version to version (having played Demo 1, a late 2011-ish build, and 2.1) and to try to just dismiss any execution-affecting inconsistencies as "johns" is a bit silly.

 

[spyaxel]

Both teching and air dodging are full click.

I press half way to ground tech, though. The only time I full click is when I need to air dodge.

 

[iLink]

Do you use the offline version or wifi?

 

[bubbaking]

A part of it isn't just that multiple air dodges could be overly defensive (There's no such thing).

Anyone would be hard pressed to back that argument.

There's also a fairly simple coding way to avoid the "issue" of accidental airdodges from moving off an edge while lying down. If moving off an edge in this state, entering tumble, rather than regular fall, would prevent an air dodge while allowing jumps/other actions to recover.

That would be horrible. In Melee, sliding off an edge while lying down allows one to attack the moment they slide off without having to jump or anything, which is very useful in a lot of tight situations. Going into tumble would force one to wiggle out insanely fast or waste their jump just to go back to his neutral air state. For instance, in Melee, Samus could instantly tether the stage if she slid off it while lying down, but with this 'tumble-inducing mechanic' that would be impossible. I'd rather risk the 'accidental AD' which should be completely avoidable with experience, anyway.

-1

 

[ELI-mination]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDJXQEFdz08&feature=youtu.be

 

[standardtoaster]

Your avatar goes well with that vid, Eli

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Lmaooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


Smooth Criminal

 

[9Kplus1]

the choice of music made me laugh more than I probably should've

 

[leelue]

Accidental airdodge after missing a tech is one of the least cool things in the game.
Lame, hypeless deaths
+9002

 

[leafbarrett]

That would be horrible. In Melee, sliding off an edge while lying down allows one to attack the moment they slide off without having to jump or anything, which is very useful in a lot of tight situations. Going into tumble would force one to wiggle out insanely fast or waste their jump just to go back to his neutral air state. For instance, in Melee, Samus could instantly tether the stage if she slid off it while lying down, but with this 'tumble-inducing mechanic' that would be impossible. I'd rather risk the 'accidental AD' which should be completely avoidable with experience, anyway.

-1

So then basically I'm screwed. My messed up reaction time isn't nearly good enough to tell if I'm going to get the tech or not, so if I miss it I'm invariably going to airdodge and get myself killed, and no amount of experience is going to prevent that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDJXQEFdz08&feature=youtu.be

Why'd you repost that? We saw that a while back. All it does is piss me off because even watching a situation where you can just put down the controller and it won't change the outcome infuriates me.

 

[Hylian]

So then basically I'm screwed. My messed up reaction time isn't nearly good enough to tell if I'm going to get the tech or not, so if I miss it I'm invariably going to airdodge and get myself killed, and no amount of experience is going to prevent that.Why'd you repost that? We saw that a while back. All it does is piss me off because even watching a situation where you can just put down the controller and it won't change the outcome infuriates me.

Pretty sure he could have DI'd out of it lol.

 

[9Kplus1]

Let's talk more about how DDD counters the entire cast.

 

[leelue]

Hylian
There was no escape
That happened like a dozen times that day.

 

[Juushichi]

ddd is fun

 

[bubbaking]

Accidental airdodge after missing a tech is one of the least cool things in the game.
Lame, hypeless deaths
+9002

Get better, scrub!

So then basically I'm screwed. My messed up reaction time isn't nearly good enough to tell if I'm going to get the tech or not, so if I miss it I'm invariably going to airdodge and get myself killed, and no amount of experience is going to prevent that.

To be honest, I didn't think your solution was all that bad. It was Kink's solution that was just preposterous. Being sent into tumble just for sliding off the edge is, like, the worst thing ever. No one wants to be in tumble ever unless you're doing a RGC with Samus.

Let's talk more about how Lucario counters the entire cast.

Fixed.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Tumble doesn't mean you have to jump or wiggle or whatever else dumb Bubbaking said, Leaf; you can attack immediately. You can ask anyone who's ever slid off the stage facing outward while shielding.

to Bubbak is just to be contrarian to anything Bunni says because it must be wrong because Ike is broken and not polarising at all.

 

[ELI-mination]

Why'd I repost that? Because now it is it's own separate video that I edited and would like to share it.

Any other questions?

 

[DMG]

Yes I have a question. Are the recent rumors circulating true that you are advocating Ike's sword be transformed into Broccoli?

 

[bubbaking]

@LeafBarret

That would be horrible. In Melee, sliding off an edge while lying down allows one to attack the moment they slide off without having to jump or anything, which is very useful in a lot of tight situations. Going into tumble would force one to wiggle out insanely fast or waste their jump just to go back to his neutral air state. For instance, in Melee, Samus could instantly tether the stage if she slid off it while lying down, but with this 'tumble-inducing mechanic' that would be impossible. I'd rather risk the 'accidental AD' which should be completely avoidable with experience, anyway.

Granted my post was a little confusing but it was 100% accurate. Sliding off the edge while lying down in Melee allows one to do whatever he wants because it puts him in his neutral air state. By definition, 'tumble' is NOT a neutral air state. It's true that one can attack or jump straight out of tumble (which, admittedly, my post seems to contradict due to its wording), but tumble is still not the neutral air state. In the neutral air state, one can air dodge (AD) which allows him to quickly position a tether. You can't AD out of tumble, hence why Kink listed it as a possible solution to accidental ADs. Yes, it would be a solution, but it wouldn't be the best solution. Believe me, it's almost always better to be in the neutral air state instead of tumble. The only times you'd want to send yourself into tumble would be if you sent yourself into tumble through a Rising Grapple Cancel.

 

[leafbarrett]

Is it just me, or do the collision boxes for the sides of FD not fit the model at all? Hopefully that gets fixed with the proper import of the Melee FD model.
Also, I am still getting frustrated with how finicky Lucario's wallcling out of ES is.

Why'd I repost that? Because now it is it's own separate video that I edited and would like to share it.

Any other questions?

Ohh. Okay then. That makes sense.

 

[bubbaking]

Yes, I believe the FD thing was a problem that the PMBR is/was working on. Hopefully, it's fixed.

Edit: More on the tumble thing. There are additional exemplary situations that show that being in the neutral air state is better than being sent into tumble. For instance, consider the situation where a character is standing at the edge of a platform. If that character's shield is hit so that he slides off the platform while facing towards the edge he slid off of, he will fall normally, as if he had just walked off, and will be able to do whatever in the world he wants. He can jump, attack, AD, or just land with his 2 frames of landing lag and be on his merry way. So if he wanted to, he could AD to avoid his opponent's follow-up (or waveland) or he could just land and perform some countermeasure on the ground to protect himself or gain better positioning.

Now, if that character's shield is hit so that he slides off the platform while facing away from the edge he slid off of, he will enter tumble. That character's actions are now MUCH more restricted. He can still jump and attack, but he can no longer AD to avoid the opponent's follow-up, and if he lands, he is forced to either tech or enter hard knockdown. As you can imagine, this is greatly beneficial to the opponent as he now gets a free tech-chase. Jumping out of tumble puts one at risk of being caught without their double jump (DJ), causing juggles, and attacking forces you to land with landing lag. All of those are usually worse than just landing or wavelanding (with an AD).

What is the moral of the story? It's practically always better to be sent into the neutral air state than into tumble and if something about being sent into the neutral air state is causing you to SD accidentally, then I suggest that you become aware of and comfortable with all the situations that cause you to be put into that circumstance. It's much better, from a competitive standpoint, to just get better at certain aspects of the game, which can actually be useful, than to change them needlessly.

 

[Utterrandomness]

is there a way to delete a post? THis one messed up. Thx

 

[Sneak8288]

Who all from the PMBR is going to APEX?

 

[standardtoaster]

Monk, me, jcaesar, cmart, and yeroc afaik.

 

[iLink]

I thought Lucario wasn't supposed to be able to wallcling out of ES anymore