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Project M Social Thread

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bubbaking

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Side Event earlier last night in BC, Canada.

1: Yakal ($33.00) :falco: :fox:
2: Alphicans ($16.50) :sheik: :mario2: :pit:
3: Big D ($5.50) :dedede:
4: Rusty :ike:
5: Daze :toonlink:
5: Captain L :pikachu2:
7: Firefly :charizard:
7: Sinister :wolf: :ness2:
9: Sheldon :fox:
9: Aleate :peach:
9: T-Block :lucas: :marth: :jigglypuff:

Archives up in the next day or two.
What is this? Daze not in top 3? That TL must suck! :smirk:

If other characters are brought up to be near top A and Low-S grade why bring anyone down? Yeah I am somewhat attached to fox, primarily because I always seem to end up playing him regardless of which character I use lol.
Hmmm, maybe because he's "High-S"? :p

Also, PMBR is keeping spacies the same because people will get mad if they feel different from Melee.
As KK and others have already pointed out, that's kinda unfair to anyone that was changed.

From what I remember of what Cmart told me yesterday:
- 2 wall jumps, not replenished by ledge grabbing
- Blue flame on Eruption, smaller hitbox, and superarmor happens later in the move
- Tipper system: more damage/knockback near the hilt of his moves, but also more hitlag. Opposite near the tip.
- Less disjoint on Aether
- Quickdraw goes less distance when uncharged and cannot be jumped out of on the first 3 (I think) frames
-If you hit with nair when his sword is below him, the opponent is knocked horizontally, not vertically.

If any of this is wrong/private, please let me know so I can edit/remove with my apologies.
Even though I am not really a fan of nerfing anything about Ike when we've got bigger things to worry about, I must say I do agree with pretty much all of these changes, except for that wonky QD nerf. Why does he have to be frozen for three frames like that? :ohwell:
 

GaretHax

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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As KK and others have already pointed out, that's kinda unfair to anyone that was changed.
Could you explain your reasoning here, short of sheik not having NTSFREE D-throw nobody in the top tiers has received any kind of nerf... Some have been buffed. So how is it unfair to buff characters, and give them the tools needed to compete, while leaving the spacies alone? I'm sorry but I don't follow at all lol. Also I guess my point was that you shouldn't really give out tools for dealing with a good character, and then proceed to tone the good character down for rather obvious reasons. Anyway, that blue fire looks really good.

:phone:
 

bubbaking

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Well, the keyword there is "anyone". Even if it's just Sheik, it's not right for her to be changed so drastically while everyone around her stays the same. The problem isn't just the dthrow. The new bthrow has upset some because it has lost some of its utility as a gimp setup. Out of the four former Top Tier chars, no one except Sheik (the weakest of the four) has been changed. I believe the major gripes are with the new dthrow and bthrow but I've seen a few complaints about the new needles too, although that doesn't seem to be nearly as important as the other two.

Also, the problem with just giving everyone "anti-space" tools is that it hurts chars like Wolf and Falcon who didn't ask to get caught up in this conflict. They're innocent, fairly balanced bystanders and all this new technology has left them crying for mercy. Then you get people who cry "Buff Wolf! Make him as good as the other spacees!" when he really is perfect as is.
 

`dazrin

Smash Champion
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@bubba
Haha! Yeah, BigD and Alphicans took me out :( Mario is TL's worst MU by far, so I got pretty wrecked by Alphicans as I expected. DDD is a pretty hard MU as well, but it's winnable and I was able to make it close. Ah well-- I expected to get last place and not win any matches at all since I haven't actually smashed in over a month or so haha :p

And yeah, TL is not very good ;)

PS. I swear, Alphicans is the canadian Armada. He looks EXACTLY like him, mains YL in melee, and has a freaking amazing Pit in PM. All he's missing is dat Peach :p
 

McNinja

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I think that instead of balancing everyone around spacies, we should balance everyone (cept spacies) around melee Kirby. That way everyone can say that their main is bad. Unless its a spacy.

:phone:
 

`dazrin

Smash Champion
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fyi toonlink blows
actually naw he's just not that good



*ahem

>_______>
You've been playing melee at least! Plus you're actually good at this game and main falco. PEW! :p

"My main is bad"
The rule of the smash community

:phone:
I was mainly kidding (hence the ;)) but I actually do think Toon Link is a very niche character. He's good enough to compete with though, and I have fun using him :) I've literally only gone 100% Toon Link in every single tournament I've participated in, and I've been having fun :p ... But that may change once 2.5 is made public ;) -- seriously though, maybe I should consider CPing to Sheik against harder MUs... Haha!

But I agree that people do say that phrase very often in this community :p
 

JOE!

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To expand on what Bubba is saying, the problem is that by keeping the spacies the same and/or "untouchable", they will inevitably be the top no matter what.

For example, Ike was considered on their level, the community cried out and now he's gotten tweaked for better or worse. Lucario has gotten OHC changes and the KB Stacking will definitely effect him, and many people saw him as on par with the tops as well. All this while Fox/Falco are left the same, characters approaching their level seem to be getting swatted down to the Falcon/Marth level. Still good, but compared to the S tier?

In return, many characters are simply given anti-spacey tools which can lead to collateral damage. For one, as Bubba said this hurts Falcon and Wolf (probably any fast faller really) unfairly as the anti-Fox/Falco tactics will also work on them, and many of the tactics such as CG's etc lead to kinda boring gameplay. Two, if everybody is just given anti-space animal tools it will make MUs vs the Spacey kinda one dimensional as it'd be the Space Animal vs the Up Air Juggle instead of Fox vs Whoever. Yes, this is a nerf by proxy, but at the cost of it seeping out to other MUs as well as altering the gameplay against the intended targets in what may become an unfavorable manner.

With more characters incoming, at a glance none of them really seem to be on par with them, especially as Sheik has been tweaked to be a tad less overwhelming, and Jiggs has just either gone out of favor from what I've seen / grown natural bad MUs. Those changes (while controversial for Sheik) seem to have ironed half the top tier out to the desired level, but Fox and Falco are still a step above the rest.

Wouldn't it make more sense to eventually tweak them a bit to not require everybody having Anti-spacy tools, while still retaining their feel?
 

Shadic

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I think that instead of balancing everyone around spacies, we should balance everyone (cept spacies) around melee Kirby. That way everyone can say that their main is bad. Unless its a spacy.

:phone:
Roy dittos in Melee are amazingly fun, though. Way less fun when you have to fight characters that actually work. :urg:
 

McNinja

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Roy dittos in Melee are amazingly fun, though. Way less fun when you have to fight characters that actually work. :urg:
Exactly. We should completely redesign P:M to balance around low tiers. Because characters that "work" suck.

Wait I've got an idea guys. Let's take out all the tech skill so that no characters work. And we can make the game slower too!

Oh wait...

Lol I'm not trying to make fun of you. I love Roy dittos as well.

:phone:
 

DMG

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But then there would be no Falcon dittos! I NEED MY KNEE!
 

bubbaking

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I proclaim myself the Sonic slayer.
$100 against any Sonic
So you're giving free money? I'll take you up on that. What does the Sonic have to give if he loses? :troll:

To expand on what Bubba is saying, the problem is that by keeping the spacies the same and/or "untouchable", they will inevitably be the top no matter what.

For example, Ike was considered on their level, the community cried out and now he's gotten tweaked for better or worse. Lucario has gotten OHC changes and the KB Stacking will definitely effect him, and many people saw him as on par with the tops as well. All this while Fox/Falco are left the same, characters approaching their level seem to be getting swatted down to the Falcon/Marth level. Still good, but compared to the S tier?
This. I truly believed that Lucario was tied for #1 with Fox in 2.1. Now he's receiving changes that aren't outright nerfs, but they do knock him down a peg or two. I never even thought Ike was Top Tier (although Eli did for a time :p ), but now he's gettin' hit hard. I mean, people say "Well, why not buff everyone to the spacees' level?" but when that actually happens for a few chars, everyone screams bloody murder and those chars are knocked off their pedestals as soon as they ascended onto them. Couldn't we at least have waited for 2.5 mechanics to be put into effect before deciding which 'OP' chars were actually OP?

Edit: I just realized that Joe said "spacey" during his post. I guess I have to concede a point to Standardtoaster..... :urg:

Edit 2: Actually, he used "spacey" and "spacy". Invalidated. :smirk:
 

`dazrin

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Many of the things changed in 2.5 were more design changes rather than balance changes, which are two completely different things. That's why we don't like referring to things as a "buff" or a "nerf" as buffing and nerfing are keeping things the same, but making their effectiveness either better or worse. A design change is different in that is completely reworks how something functions, and if it functions more or less effective than what it was previously is a bi-product of the reworking.

"Couldnt we have waited for 2.5 mechanics to come out before deciding who is OP or not?"
This is why we have playtesters. Things like this get tested and are weighed upon in the backroom. I could say the same to you and say "Couldn't you wait until 2.5 is released before critisizing how balanced it is?"

On the topic of space animals being too "good"-- it's far too early to be hasty and make such a judgement call like that an administer balance changes right away. We don't even know for sure if they are still top tier, as things are constantly changing internally as characters get developed. Once everyone is released and there has been a good amount of time for a metagame to settle will we know for sure how space animals stack up compared to everyone else in the cast, and we will administer balance changes as necessary then. For now, we are optimizing design and how things work, so be patient with us when it comes to the topic of balance and melee top tiers. Thanks! (⌒▽⌒)
 

B.W.

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I like that post, `daze.

But Sonic's new u-tilt animation is the worst design change ever, and Sonic is so booooorriiiiiing now.

I don't disagree with any other character's changes though.
 

B.W.

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Spinspinspin is what made him so fun.

More than anything though I hate new side-B. So slow, doesn't travel anywhere. Doesn't suit the "gotta go fast" Sonic imo.

Though my issue with it is more the fact that, 2.1 Sonic fits Sonic the hedgehog as a character more than 2.5 does so far. We'll see how it does in action once released I suppose.

up-tilt's animation is still awful though.
 

B.W.

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He can keep his flash kick, it just needs to be actually animated instead of looking like they froze his legs in a certain postiion and then just rotated his model.

Edit: Also I did use down-B. The thing about down-B though is that it takes a moment to charge. Side-B was good because you instantly zipped away in a ball. Really good for using out of Sonic's dash-dance as well as other things.
 

ELI-mination

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I think people who know a lot about Sonic play are proooooobably better credentialed to give input on his design and whether or not it's good. But yea, nerf Ike
 

rifall

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Crew mode, ledgeteching, knock back stacking, squirrel and ivysaur...

I'll be happy of the next announcement is the release. I want to get my hands on this so bad.

:phone:
 

BJN39

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I personally feel 2.5 sonic should be a best of both worlds of both demos.

Because like it has been said, sonic seems more... Sonicy with fast B moves but he needs decent regulars.

Because Sonic (to me) seems... Eh, on the spectrum in 2.1, and he still looks eh in the 2.5 streams. (IDK maybe he's better but I doesn't look like it to me) So having both good sides might make him on par with the commonly mentioned to be good characters. (Note, I mean Lucario and Ike level.)

My 2 cents.

KByeGottaGoOuttaTownNow
 

Life

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I just miss chargeable side-B.

And on the subject of nerfing Foxco, if you do, I say just nerf side-B or up-B priority / range somehow. It won't affect their onstage game basically at all but it will make them more gimpable.

Basically, if you're going to nerf them, exaggerate their weaknesses rather than remove their strengths.
 

bubbaking

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I forgot how un-confrontational and diplomatic Daze's posts were... :p

"Couldnt we have waited for 2.5 mechanics to come out before deciding who is OP or not?"
This is why we have playtesters. Things like this get tested and are weighed upon in the backroom. I could say the same to you and say "Couldn't you wait until 2.5 is released before critisizing how balanced it is?"
Fair enough......kinda, but you moved first so you're guilty, if you catch my drift. :smirk: I'd also like to honestly ask: Have you at least secretly playtested modified spacees in P:M, or is it too much of a taboo at this point?

Anyway, after playing 2.5 myself a bit, I must say the new confirmed chars are cool, but as I thought, Ivy's a little weak in dealing with rushdown. She also has to work quite a bit for her kills. Not that I have any problem with those things; every char needs weaknesses. I'm just glad she has noticeable ones so she hopefully won't receive unfavorable changes in the future. Ivy is perfect as is....................it's everyone else that's the problem. :glare:
 
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