Project M Social Thread

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Sorta finding "Solarbeam"-part a subtle reference to PokeAwesome having Venusaur Solarbeaming Pikachu.

(-l<>l-);;;

Anyway, hoping now that Kirby, Diddy and Samus might get playable. Especally Kirby- he's been in a huge need of a makeover since his mediocre tiers in Melee and even if to less extent, Brawl.

 

[DMG]

Let's try this again.

Spoiler

Discuss. Ask questions, give comments, concerns, opinions, etc. I'd like to try to improve this myself too.

I'd also love to see this tested.

This system doesn't work because CP invalidation and waste of viability still happens. Say you have roughly 20 stages right? This system has the winner ban 1 full group (5 stages). Then his opponent chooses 1 group he wants. The other 2 groups, or 10 stages, are gone. THEN, the winner cuts out another stage. Out of 20 stages, 16 are always ALWAYS cut Neko. Always. How is that not weeding out a ton of stages?


Think about the regular system of giving the player a ban or two. You say the usual format promotes "Well I hate Brinstar so I'm always banning it" and this stifles legitimate stages. In your proposed format, say Brinstar is in Group 2. Let's say I don't even ban Group 2, I ban Group 1. My opponent picks Group 2, so those are the only 5 stages going to be used this round. OUT OF THOSE 5, I STILL GET TO STRIKE BRINSTAR!


In fact, the end outcome is exactly the same. However, I'd argue your system is worse in a few areas:

1. Your system is too limiting on both players. Example: my opponent likes Brinstar specifically, but not the other stages in Group 2. If he wants the opportunity to CP it, he HAS to select Group 2 or else it goes away. If he chooses Group 2, I can still strike Brinstar or x stage he wants and now he's stuck with stages he might not have wanted in the first place. In fact, being able to openly CP any stage, I'd argue, gives players more room and possibility to test and play on those stages you believe get overbanned. If Brinstar goes, Hyrule Castle/Jungle/whatever can get played instead.


2. The problem this system aims to address, which is everyone banning the same stages or "perfectly good" stages getting banned all the time, STILL happens and your system is not far off from our system. The regular system gives the player at least 1 absolute ban. In your system, EVEN after banning a group EVEN after your opponent picks the final group, you are giving the other guy that same "last resort" ban. In both scenarios, I ban Brinstar. In YOUR scenario however, my opponent is now limited to ONLY picking from his group. In my scenario, I may ban Brinstar, but I DO have to worry about the the rest of stages, and he can go from Brinstar to tiny stage, to random CP, the new Pokefloats, whatever the hell he wants. In your system, he's artificially limited because of the groupings.



If you want an improvement to your system, you could have bans specifically be along group lines, but you should not make picks along group lines. That's too limiting and it's a horrible idea. Counter picks, outside of bans, should be as open as possible.

 

[leelue]

Kinklinks system is the best, hands down

 

[DMG]

What system is that? Does it involve cookies?

 

[Mankosuki]

I really hope we get Samus in 2.5

 

[Stunts]

I really hope that they'd stop tempting me with yoshi -_-

 

[GHNeko]

Good points dmg. I have some counter points because your working off assumptions. I also do believe the two issues are dealt with albeit not completely, and ill respond when I'm not at work.

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

So what are some of the changes that we see in the demo 2.5 trailer? From the looks of it, they're fixing Pit's smashes. The first swipe of his fsmash seems to provide enough hitstun to connect to the second swipe, which was super annoying in 2.1. Charizard's nair can act as a launcher now, though I don't remember if that was already a thing in 2.1. Wairo gets a new running animation. It might just be me, but Ike's side-b looks a bit slower, too. Obviously the solar beam thing at the end. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man.

Get hyped, son.

 

[Gimpel]

Ike is confirmed to be 2.1 at the moment in the 2.5 build.
Everyone's favourite PMBR 'daze stated that a few pages ago ^_^
This may however change until 2.5 is released as everything is subject to change, but Ike is not changed from 2.1 yet.
(I also find it kinda ridiculous that people speculate that Ike can't jump-cancel QD anymore because he didn't in the trailer lol)

Was Wario able to DACUS that far before ?

 

[iLink]

Yes he could, or just about the same.

 

[DMG]

Good points dmg. I have some counter points because your working off assumptions. I also do believe the two issues are dealt with albeit not completely, and ill respond when I'm not at work.

I disagree with that. I think the system you proposed actually makes it worse, because it naturally removes a ton of stages during the CP process. Out of 20 stages for example, 5 stages per group, your method always removes 15 of them and then gives the winner the same "select" ban of a stage that he gets in the regular process. So after that ban, 16 stages out of 20 are gone. That's 80% of the stage list gone. How is this superior at promoting more stages be used?


2 players could roll dice, flip a coin, etc and 16 stages will always be gone. That's not a good thing and this process alone makes it harder to see Hyrule/xyz stage used more when multiple groups go AND the guy still gets a free stage ban on the last group. All it seems to do IMO is limit the CPing player. In all honesty, this seems like an attempt to "guide" players away from the super common starters/mild CP stages and get more people to play on jankier, lesser known stages. That should not be our goal however and we should not shape the CP list OR process to satisfy that. Ask people to play test it in friendlies, MM's, or even in tournament. Just don't shape the actual CP process to try and accomplish that.


Take situations where my character sucks on every Group 3 stage. In the usual format, I may ban 1 or 2 of the individual stages, my opponent picks another out of that group, sucks for me. In this format, assuming the group in question is being used, I ban 1 of them and he picks another out of that group. Same end result as before. However, there are downsides for the CPing player in your format that do not exist in the regular one:


1. If my character is *only* bad on Group 3 stages and I strike that Group, my opponent does not get to CP those stages. Your system allows me, when I might normally be vulnerable, to cover my butt and strike the entire group.

2. If I do not strike that group, my opponent IS forced to pick it if he wants to CP out of the group, and the other stages are thus no longer available to him. This limits his options and limits those other stages from being possibly used if he was uncertain or going to change his mind. There is no flexibility and it's a systematic limitation imposed on him, and I can't think of a good reason why.


When you get the time/off work, I'd love to get into it because I really do not see this system as superior unless there's some rules/catch that fixes it lol.

 

[DMG]

EliMuffinCakes LAYING THE SMACKDOWN

 

[GP&B]

When people make posts on grammar, I try to see if they were consistent themselves in an attempt to comically call out their own follies.

Fortunately, Eli's post cleared the strip-search and has boarded its flight to Neko's house.

 

[ELI-mination]

I'll be uploading a whole bunch of replays to my YouTube channel later tonight. Like 130 matches with me, Leelue, Gallo, and Bubbaking. I was gonna do it in HD but....
1.) It's really obnoxious to do
2.) Demo 2.5 is coming out and these videos are all 2.1

But yea, subscribe @ http://www.youtube.com/freesaltines for Project M videos from NY.

The NY smash community is sorely lacking and very much divided between each individual smash game. The only person in NY that I know plays all the smash games besides 64 at a high level is Will. He's a high level Brawl DK player and a friend of mine. By the way, his P:M DK is getting pretty good, so watch out people.

#DoYouKnowTheMuffinMan

 

[leelue]

Also Eli forgot the word yore, which to my knowledge, hasn't been used since days of yore.

The Wario run thing
Isn't that a significant thing? I thought he was loaded with animation restrictions

 

[GP&B]

I didn't really think you could have animation restrictions besides having a small motionetc.pac file. Unless there's something specific about Wario that I've never heard of.

 

[DMG]

Those restrictions may just be attack wise, not movement wise.

 

[GHNeko]

I blame my phone for autocorrecting your and you're. I normally get them right lol.

When you get the time/off work, I'd love to get into it because I really do not see this system as superior unless there's some rules/catch that fixes it lol.

Yeah, I should be getting off in a bit. hopefully. The latest would be 1600 -0500 which would be 1500 for TX/Midwest. So if you can stay close until then, that'd be great since I want to improve this if possible.

 

[Onomanic]

I took a look at your CP process Neko. I'd play with it I suppose, in theory it sounds good. Though by the end, stage choice becomes very limited. If you had a list of what stages go for each group, I could probably be more specific. Is FD a starter or an open stage? Stuff like that.

About stages, will we ever see Melee Battlefield? I know most people hate it but I think it'd be a neat addition.

 

[iLink]

I wouldn't mind Melee BF being selectable by holding a button while picking BF as a sort of easteregg thing, but I definitely prefer the new BF, even aesthetically.

 

[GHNeko]

I took a look at your CP process Neko. I'd play with it I suppose, in theory it sounds good. Though by the end, stage choice becomes very limited. If you had a list of what stages go for each group, I could probably be more specific. Is FD a starter or an open stage? Stuff like that.

The idea is to normalize CP advantage because generally the CP advantage the loser is afforded is pretty lolbig. by normalizing the CP advantage, you make the game less about counterpicking stages to crutch your way to victory. However, if you take the time to learn and master playing on a variety of stages across multiple groups, you can then nullify the bans because regardless of what's banned, you still have experience with the stage and can work around the bans, meaning more of your skill and knowledge is taken into play.

You're encouraged to learn 39 match ups, right? You should learn 20+ stages as well.

This way counterpicking is still viable @ both character selection and stage selection, but it wont impact the match as much, and thus the players are more reliant on character/stage mastery as well as game mastery and overall skill.

Also, I would never want to put FD as a starter. I'm very much for FD as a CP first, starter second (ie you want like 7+ starters)

 

[iLink]

Just out of curiosity, which stages would you use as the starters?

 

[DMG]

We went over his idea, it's prob gonna be tweaked a bit the general idea still being trying to take the sting out of lopsided CP's

 

[Demon-oni]

Kinda off topic, but if you guys could make ness's pk1 act similar to how it does in super smash flash 2, I will consider picking him up again.

 

[GHNeko]

Just out of curiosity, which stages would you use as the starters?

BF, PS2, SV, Yoshi's Story, FoD. I feel these stages have a more natural flow and encompass more of the game than FD since FD lacks platforms ie cutting out the platform game(a huge part of what makes smash..smash.), reducing the total amount of strategies, thus over-centralizing strategies to a moderate degree and beyond since you're far more limited on what you can do on FD, than the aforementioned stages, making it more of a counterpicking stage in my eyes.

We went over his idea, it's prob gonna be tweaked a bit the general idea still being trying to take the sting out of lopsided CP's

you derp. you went offline before responding to my statements about Group 2 and above having more than 5 stages to help curb the issue of overbanning.

That I also wanted to toy with the idea of reducing the groups to 3, and increasing the stage counts for all groups more to help reduce the blow of counterpicking loss/overbanning.

 

[GP&B]

@Demon-oni
While that's a rather specific thing to ask for, I wouldn't disagree with the notion that Ness absolutely needs some improvements (although I don't know how it behaves in SSF2 to begin with).

 

[JCaesar]

http://www.twitch.tv/JCaesar

Streaming 2.5 with Vanguard and hopefully Vist later! Spread the word!

 

[BJN39]

When did it start? How much have I missed?

Edit: Oh, like 4 minutes ago...

 

[Kink-Link5]

What system is that? Does it involve cookies?

[collapse=Bunni's Stage Selection Method 1.7]Standard Rules:
4 Stock Match
8 Minute Time Limit
Pools are swiss 3 matches or you know, whatever the tournament seems most fit to run
Brackets are best 2 of 3 matches
Winners' Finals and Losers Finals are best 3 of 5 matches
Grand Finals are two potential sets both best 3 of 5. If the player on the Winner's side of the bracket wins the first set, he or she takes the tournament; if the player on the Loser's side of the bracket wins the first set, he or she resets the bracket and a second set is played to determine the winner
Other stuff I'm sure you all know by now, items, stalling, infinites etc etc

Legal Stages:
Singles
Final Destination
Battlefield
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
Dreamland
Yoshi's Story
Green Hill Zone
Fountain of Dreams
Dracular's Crustacean
WarioWare
Pokemon Stadium
Metal Cavern
Halberd

Doubles
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
Battlefield
Dreamland
Sky World
Green Hill Zone
Final Destination
Dracula's Castle
SSE: Jungle
Pokemon Stadium
Rumble Falls
Kongo Jungle 64
Delfino Plaza

Set procedure:
Players decide port priority. For teams the players must be allocated to the players on one team being in the 1P and 4P slots, while the other team is allocated to 2P and 4P. If port priority can not be agreed upon, players may elect to a coin toss, rock paper scissors, or other such method to settle the issue.

Players select characters; any player may elect to have characters selected double blind

Players decide which player/team will strike first and which will ban. The player/team that bans first will hence forth be referred to as "Player A" and the player/team that strikes first will be referred too as "Player B." If players can not be decided upon, players may elect to a coin toss, rock paper scissors, or other such method to settle the issue.

Player A Bans his or her first stage
Player B Bans his or her first stage
Player A Bans his or her second stage
Player B Bans his or her second stage
Player B Bans his or her final stage
Player A Bans his or her final stage

The stage list is now narrowed to 7 stages

Player B strikes his or her first stage
Player A strikes his or her first stage
Player B strikes his or her second stage
Player A strikes his or her second stage
Player A strikes his or her final stage
Player B strikes his or her final stage

The remaining stage is then played on for the first match

Counter Picking
This is also something I'm trying to do in a little different order to accommodate the more powerful character counterpicks this stage method is subject to.

Winner of Match 1 selects character
Loser of Match 1 selects character
Winner of Match 1 strikes a stage just for this particular match
Loser of Match 1 selects from the remaining 6 stages his or her counterpick stage.

Gentleman's Clause
Any rule can be altered if both players agree to it and it is deemed to not be a change that can cause the tournament to run longer at the discretion of the Tournament Organizer. If you want to

When it's all step by step written out it seems quite long but the only thing that's really longer is that bans occur at the start of the set. Everything else is just in a different order from what most are use to. If both players want to do a 5/9 set of 1 minute coin matches on flatzone, as long as it seems okay within the time limit of the tournament by the TO, it is perfectly fine.


Then at the end of the set, everyone eats freshly baked cookies.[/collapse]

 

[Demon-oni]

@gamedominator.

Has a bit more control, though I wouldn't say as much as lucas'. Ness retains horizontal momentum he has in the air, and float lasts a bit longer. Has a rather low amount of recovery frames, so ness can not only combo it a bit better, but also isn't a sitting duck if something wonky happens. Also, a direct hit to an airborne opponent will cause about 5-10 feet of knockback in the direction pk thunder was flying.

Also, I'd love if psi magnet could be shield cancellable and while absorbing energy based projectiles, has standard projectile invincibility.

 

[iLink]

BF, PS2, SV, Yoshi's Story, FoD. I feel these stages have a more natural flow and encompass more of the game than FD since FD lacks platforms ie cutting out the platform game(a huge part of what makes smash..smash.), reducing the total amount of strategies, thus over-centralizing strategies to a moderate degree and beyond since you're far more limited on what you can do on FD, than the aforementioned stages, making it more of a counterpicking stage in my eyes.

I've always felt that its bad having both YS and FoD as starters. They are both just too similar IMO. Obviously they aren't the same thing, but similar enough to warrant something else. I've been running with GHZ as a starter instead of FoD personally. Heck, I think Dreamland would be a better inclusion in contrast to YS and FoD both being relatively tiny stages.

Also, what does everyone think of Skyworld? I almost never see anyone run it as a starter or CP. I personally don't like the layout too much, but I don't see a huge issue with the stage.

 

[MattDotZeb]

Ike is broken.


10brokens




Btw I'm recording matches with strong bad, spider mad, Meneks, and rat. Will make video later.

 

[DMG]

Dreamland def starter. Les go

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Kinda off topic, but if you guys could make ness's pk1 act similar to how it does in super smash flash 2, I will consider picking him up again.

no

10nos

SSF2/Brawl- style PSI Magnet shine would be hilarious though.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Let's make a stage list where Sonic gets no good stages as starters.

 

[DMG]

I AGREE WITH THIS COMPLETELY

lol

 

[Dingding123]

2.5 so muhc mor fnu 2 wacht

becuz dis

 

[GaretHax]

2.5 so muhc mor fnu 2 wacht

becuz dis

That's actually literally the reason I always give for loving smash. It gives absolute control to the players. Freedom of movement, and damn fast movement at that, even control where and how you are hit via DI. Freeform comboes and not having to worry about pre-fabricated button inputs or (generally) slow character motion. I love the movement and freedom of the game and you are right pretty much no other games have it. It being the option to do just about anything out of anything or at any time and have it be viable, or even not viable. Just the ability to have choice over everything, its sick and it sucks that Nintendo just doesn't get it, or don't want to except it or w/e, I don't personally understand their double talk about smash and I'm not sure I want to lol. Hopefully they won't ruin 4 but I don't have my hopes up, I have project M already anyways. <3 M

 

[Kuraudo]

Let's make a stage list where Sonic gets no good stages as starters.

u mad?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Extremely so.