Project M Social Thread

[Mirgio]

Are the developers of project M planning on making it compatible for the Wii U?

 

[GHNeko]

I'm guessing the Wii U will have a sandbox mode for Wii games, just as the Wii does for GC games. And as per the Wii which allows GC homebrew in the GC sandbox, Wii U will allow Wii homebrew in the Wii sandbox

 

[Kink-Link5]

I feel bad for charizard.
It always threw me that he and pit had different numbers. Just, internally it didn't match with my preconceptions.
It still interests me that charizard has such massively worse glide mechanics.

Charizard's glide isn't exclusively worse than Pit's. It's just, much, much, much much muchmuch worse as a movement option.

Compared to Pit's, Charizard's glide can travel indefinitely and can be used again if he gets hit, making it a bit more stable recovery move.

It is still kinda trashy though and could use a little change to compliment his bulk/ really bad mobility.

 

[metroid1117]

Hey guys, I've finished uploading the videos from yesterday's tournament. As a re-cap, here are the results as posted by Rat in the results thread.

PM Singles

Spoiler

1: Rat ($45.00)
2: Kels ($13.50) ika:
3: ORLY ($6.50)
4: Metriod1117
5: Kirk
5: Scythe ool088:
7: Trail
7: <3 Hello Kitty <3
9: Compound x
9: MattDotZeb
9: Nap
9: Arty
13: Josh

Bracket Img

Spoiler

Videos (Full Playlist)
WQ - Rat (Sonic) vs Kels (Falco/Fox)
WS - Rat (Sonic) vs metroid (Ike)
WF - ORLY (Bowser) vs Rat (Sonic) (CF friendly after WF)
LR3 - Scythe (Wolf) vs TGD (Ike)
LQ - Scythe (Wolf) vs metroid (Ike)
LS - metroid (Ike) vs Kels (Fox/Sheik/Pikachu)
LF - ORLY (Bowser) vs Kels (Pikachu/Sheik) (CF friendly after LF <- must-watch for any Falcon main!)
GF - Rat (Sonic) vs Kels (Pikachu/Sheik/Peach)
??? - ??? (Sheik/Falco) vs ??? (Ganon) (I don't know who these players are or where in the bracket this was.)

 

[UltiMario]

Let's try to stay on-topic, or at least close to it.

Like, make a part of your post on-topic at the least.

For example, is there any thoughts on altering how many jumps multijump characters get? I think Pit and Dedede both have 4 right now, Jigglypuff has 6, and Charizard has 3, all of which are, to my knowledge the same as in vBrawl.

DDD has one more jump in Brawl. Jigglypuff clearly isn't going to be changed because Melee.

Other 2 are up for debate I guess?

 

[victra♥]

Man, I'm seeing a lot of sonic placing/doing well in p:m tournaments. Is he really that decent of a character?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Charizard only has two mid-air jumps in Brawl.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Wow, really good job on Kels and Rat's parts.

Project Fatties, 5 non-heavy users in the entire bracket.

Charizard only has two mid-air jumps in Brawl.

I sort of said that? I don't recall anyone saying otherwise at any point.

 

[Dingding123]

Man, I'm seeing a lot of sonic placing/doing well in p:m tournaments. Is he really that decent of a character?

spin2win

10sideb's

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ah. My mistake, but, to be fair, your wording is goofy, as every character is assumed to have one non-midair jump to begin with.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I just said jumps though. Don't blame me for you not reading it properly lmao.

 

[F. Blue]

Pit has so many options while recovering I don't see him ever running out of glides. That raises another question; Are Pit's arrows OP? It would be fair if they had a set hitstun and knockback, but at higher percents it becomes a guaranteed kill combo, from any distance, that you can move in any direction. It's so safe and so rewarding, and so lame. Low mobility characters can't cope. Imagine if Peach pulled nothing but bob-ombs and had had three floats. I don't see any weakness compared to Peach (except player experience).

 

[ELI-mination]

Man, I'm seeing a lot of sonic placing/doing well in p:m tournaments. Is he really that decent of a character?

No, he actually is pretty crappy. People just don't know how to fight him.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Pit has so many options while recovering I don't see him ever running out of glides. That raises another question; Are Pit's arrows OP? It would be fair if they had a set hitstun and knockback, but at higher percents it becomes a guaranteed kill combo, from any distance, that you can move in any direction. It's so safe and so rewarding, and so lame. Low mobility characters can't cope. Imagine if Peach pulled nothing but bob-ombs and had had three floats. I don't see any weakness compared to Peach (except player experience).

Peach pulling only bob ombs and having three floats is dramatically different to the point they can't even be remotely compared to Pit's glides+arrows. Gliding ends when using a move/taking up a jump, gliding after the first use lasts significantly shorter, and the third use ends immediately. Arrows don't deal 30% or have a massive hitbox and only combo into other moves if they hit from up close.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was under the impression that Charizard had three mid-air jumps in P:M.

 

[F. Blue]

Peach pulling only bob ombs and having three floats is dramatically different to the point they can't even be remotely compared to Pit's glides+arrows. Gliding ends when using a move/taking up a jump, gliding after the first use lasts significantly shorter, and the third use ends immediately. Arrows don't deal 30% or have a massive hitbox and only combo into other moves if they hit from up close.

I compared them to bob-ombs because they're a guaranteed kill at higher percents (if you don't miss the kill combo). And are you sure about the second glide? I thought it lasts forever, either way it's a better recovery than peach, especially considering the 4 jumps.

 

[Dingding123]

No, he actually is pretty crappy. People just don't know how to fight him.

noya he sux

ppl are dumb, tires don exits rite nao cuz ppl cant execute for a klondike bar

 

[Kink-Link5]

I compared them to bob-ombs because they're a guaranteed kill at higher percents (if you don't miss the kill combo). And are you sure about the second glide? I thought it lasts forever, either way it's a better recovery than peach, especially considering the 4 jumps.

Neither glide lasts forever, and the second one lasts I believe half as long as the first. Test it out on Saffron/Fourside if you want.

And again, there's huge differences between bob-ombs killing from anywhere at 50% and Pit setting up into a kill move by hitting with a close-range arrow at 130%.

I was under the impression that Charizard had three mid-air jumps in P:M.

I ****ING WISH.

 

[bubbaking]

Being light, combo bait, and one dying at 0% aren't weaknesses?

Dying at 0? ........to what?

We like to pretend that they don't have weaknesses because their strengths cover them up so well.
But we also like to forget that that's kinda the goal with the other characters also.
Some are just going to have stronger strengths and more serious weaknesses, so weaknesses and strengths will be more easily separated.

And then some will barely have strengths at all. If a char can cover up his strengths so well, then how is a char who can't cover his at all supposed to beat him consistently? That's our balance problem.

Let's try to stay on-topic, or at least close to it.

Like, make a part of your post on-topic at the least.

You can't possibly say that after our whole 'bubbalouie' exchange...

For example, is there any thoughts on altering how many jumps multijump characters get? I think Pit and Dedede both have 4 right now, Jigglypuff has 6, and Charizard has 3, all of which are, to my knowledge the same as in vBrawl.

Are you including the jump from the ground (which I think you are if you're saying that Jiggs has 6 jumps and Zard has 3)? If so, then I'd like to point out that DDD has 5 jumps in vBrawl, not 4. If he really has only 4 in P:M, then it would lead me to believe that the PMBR has a thing against DDD since he'll have lost both a jump as well as the super armor on his upB, which was kinda needed.

Edit: Oh, I didn't notice that UltiMario already gave the DDD info...

 

[victra♥]

Also, forgive me if this was said somewhere, but are the developers looking towards changing most if not all the maps to something more neutral/standard for competitive play?

 

[GHNeko]

No we're not. We want to leave some banned/casual stages in for simple fun hence why we brought back stages like Fourside.

 

[F. Blue]

Also, forgive me if this was said somewhere, but are the developers looking towards changing most if not all the maps to something more neutral/standard for competitive play?

No, the final release will include all the stages from Brawl, plus the new ones. Still undecided on original versions of Warioware, Greenhill Zone, ect.

 

[bubbaking]

Charizard's glide isn't exclusively worse than Pit's. It's just, much, much, much much muchmuch worse as a movement option.

Compared to Pit's, Charizard's glide can travel indefinitely and can be used again if he gets hit, making it a bit more stable recovery move.

It is still kinda trashy though and could use a little change to compliment his bulk/ really bad mobility.

I always thought that Pit's glides lasted forever, too (at least his first one, anyway). Even if they don't, they definitely last long enough for Charizard's ability to "glide indefinitely" to not really be a good reason for Zard's glide not being "exclusively worse than Pit's." If Pit gets hit while recovering twice, then that's a darn shame and he deserves to die.

Pit has so many options while recovering I don't see him ever running out of glides. That raises another question; Are Pit's arrows OP? It would be fair if they had a set hitstun and knockback, but at higher percents it becomes a guaranteed kill combo, from any distance, that you can move in any direction. It's so safe and so rewarding, and so lame. Low mobility characters can't cope. Imagine if Peach pulled nothing but bob-ombs and had had three floats. I don't see any weakness compared to Peach (except player experience).

Ummm, what's wrong with having reliable kill setups at high %'s? So many chars have kill throws and Pit doesn't even get access to that. Let's also not forget that Pit's KO power is really not that great.

 

[Kink-Link5]

You can't possibly say that after our whole 'bubbalouie' exchange...

Try. try, Ojou-Sama.

Lisson lisson lisson.



The context of the conversation stayed pretty on topic. It wasn't strictly an off-topic remark with no context.

Also, forgive me if this was said somewhere, but are the developers looking towards changing most if not all the maps to something more neutral/standard for competitive play?

Not all, but many. The goal is to have a diverse set of stages for tournament play while still offering stages fit for casual play/alternative game modes.

For instance, I could never live without Onnet for Coin Matches.

 

[UltiMario]

Dying at 0? ........to what?

"Dying at 0" is the common way to say "Falco's Up-B sucks"

 

[Kink-Link5]

So it's also the common way of being wrong then?

 

[UltiMario]

No, that would be "Kink-Link5" you're thinking of.

 

[DMG]

Jab-1 hits 3 or faster with 3+ shieldstun (HitFrame/Damage): Doc(2/4), Falco(2/4), Fox(2/4), Sheik(2/4), Luigi(2/3), Mario(2/3), Peach(2/3), Ganon(3/7-8), Ike(3/4), Snake(3/4), Ness(3/3), ROB(3/3), Samus(3/3), Sonic(3/3), and Yoshi(3/3).

Also has Jab-2 that hits 3 or faster with 3+ shieldstun (HitFrame/Damage): Falco(2/4), Fox(2/4), Doc(2/3), Sonic(2/3), Yoshi(3/5), Ike(3/3), ROB(3/3), Sheik(3/3)

Bowser's f-smash is stronger than Ike's by a decent amount btw. They have the same KBG/BKB but Bowser's does more damage which affects the KBG directly as well as adding more total damage into the KB. Testing those moves with no DI doesn't say much since they have nearly a full second to do so.

Not the full part of Bowser Fsmash. The move if you hit strong and square with Bowser is indeed stronger. I compared the weak hit, and Ike Fsmash killed sooner than that part of Bowser Fsmash. And yeah it was tested without DI, but Bowser's weak hit sends them near perfect diagonal anyways (maybe why they lived longer since Ike's Fsmash sends so further horizontal). The basic point being... well it seems silly for that move to be even in that league given what Bowser has to go through to land it. Same with it being stronger than DK punch. Sure it's Ike he should be strong, but that seems a bit much.

 

[Kink-Link5]

No, that would be "Kink-Link5" you're thinking of.

Oh okay. Proof right here everyone, Falco's up-B is bad.

 

[F. Blue]

Ummm, what's wrong with having reliable kill setups at high %'s? So many chars have kill throws and Pit doesn't even get access to that. Let's also not forget that Pit's KO power is really not that great.

Because it's a projectile that can hit from anywhere on the stage. Camping should not be rewarded with guaranteed kills.

http://youtu.be/jq9nh2V5-LM?t=8m56s
Bowser doesn't stand a chance at high percents.

 

[leelue]

http://xkcd.com/1112/

 

[victra♥]

wow there literally is a relevant xkcd for everything.

 

[leelue]

Brand new and right on time

 

[Kink-Link5]

Because it's a projectile that can hit from anywhere on the stage. Camping should not be rewarded with guaranteed kills.

http://youtu.be/jq9nh2V5-LM?t=8m56s
Bowser doesn't stand a chance at high percents.

I wouldn't use this as a good example at all considering Bowser won the match and when he died it wasn't from Pit setting up a combo from arrows.

 

[metroid1117]

Not the full part of Bowser Fsmash. The move if you hit strong and square with Bowser is indeed stronger. I compared the weak hit, and Ike Fsmash killed sooner than that part of Bowser Fsmash. And yeah it was tested without DI, but Bowser's weak hit sends them near perfect diagonal anyways (maybe why they lived longer since Ike's Fsmash sends so further horizontal). The basic point being... well it seems silly for that move to be even in that league given what Bowser has to go through to land it. Same with it being stronger than DK punch. Sure it's Ike he should be strong, but that seems a bit much.

I don't know exactly how strong Ike's FSmash is compared to other "power" moves, but considering that the attack is disjointed, covers a lot of area in front of him (and can hit through platforms similar to Marth's FSmash), can be combo'd into, doesn't have an obvious sweetspot, and doesn't have to be charged, I think it needs some tweaks.

On the topic of knockback, what's the formula for calculating the numerical value of knockback using the BKB, the KBG, and the damage that an attack does? I'm curious as to how effective Ike's knockback armor on Aether is, given that it has a knockback threshold of 80. Also, is the formula for hitstun based solely on the knockback of an attack or is the damage dealt by the attack factored in as well?

 

[Magus420]

Bowser's f-smash does not have a weak hit. That tip hit you're talking about actually tends to kill earlier than the normal hit because when they do DI and catch that hitbox they hit the ceiling instead of the corner. No DI is pretty much ideal DI for that hit so it's going to appear weak.

Something often ignored is the instant gigantic step back Bowser takes on the startup that certainly helps greatly in landing such a slow move.


Knockback, hitstun, etc can be calculated using this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=324878

 

[Kink-Link5]

Both of Bowser's F-smash hitboxes have the same knockback though.

Magus'd


Bowser F-smash large (flub?) hitbox: Damage 26; Angle Sakurai (361)
Bowser F-smash small (fire?) hitbox: Damage 26; Angle 60

Ike F-Smash flub: Damage 24; Angle Sakurai (361)
Ike F-smash tipper: Damage 24; Angle 35

 

[DMG]

OK WIZARDS!

Point is, Ike big dang sword should not be that comparable to a BOWSER Fsmash. Bowser uses his whole body, thrusts with the might of a god, and Ike basically 2 hand slap chops and the sword does all the work. DI, no DI, whatever the case, them being in roughly the same league feels wrong. The move killing sooner than DK punch feels wrong.

For Ike's sword, hitting with the tip of Fsmash sends people more horizontal (no DI ofc, might be easier to survive if you do DI). Which feels weird, you'd expect some kind of sour spot even if it's just the tip of the sword.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The entirety of the rest of the sword, his shoulder, and his hips are all a sourspot for the move.

 

[DMG]

The entirety of the rest of the sword, his shoulder, and his hips are all a sourspot for the move.

Point invalidated because Ike doesn't swing his hips like Tiger Woods golf swing. My bad~~~~~~~~~