Project M Social Thread

[DMG]

But Wario's jankiness is a serious issue! We can't talk about it. We shouldn't.... Besides, Wario's got nuthin' on Mr. Gdubs.

That's not a fair comparison. He was designed to be janky.

*I realize that now sounds like a further jab at Kink, it's not I think G&W was legit designed to be wacky everyone knows that*

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

there is a group who ***** and shut down all complaints b/c they look at pm as one would look at melee or brawl (as in nothing can be changed b/c thats how the game is), people have to realize that the people who made pm are not infallible game designers.

plus the way people jumped on kage was ridicules and honestly made me kinda upset, maybe instead of telling him he was wrong and jumping all over him someone could of listened to him he might be saying something important. At the very least maybe having a civil discussion instead of jumping down his throat as some of you did would of been the better option

 

[Kink-Link5]

So you just decided it would be fun to pick on someone on the Internet because they have a different opinion than you?

I'm not sure if there's anything in the ToS about stuff like that, but I'm more than a little hurt that you are singling me out and using me as a target of negative expression. I thought we were friends here.

I do think Wario's animations are really choppy and could use refinement, even if they were designed that way intentionally.

 

[bubbaking]

That's a little defeatist, bubbalouie. I'm perfectly fine with discussing the move in both design and context of the character, and its a little saddening to see someone drop out just as a discussion is getting deeper.

It's all right. I think this thread is done for today...

 

[`dazrin]

there is a group who ***** and shut down all complaints b/c they look at pm as one would look at melee or brawl (as in nothing can be changed b/c thats how the game is), people have to realize that the people who made pm are not infallible game designers.

plus the way people jumped on kage was ridicules and honestly made me kinda upset, maybe instead of telling him he was wrong and jumping all over him someone could of listened to him he might be saying something important. At the very least maybe having a civil discussion instead of jumping down his throat as some of you did would of been the better option

I asked him to provide video evidence so we could better understand his qualms. Is that wrong?

It's easier for the designers to see for themselves what exactly is going on through video footage. It's more helpful to be shown than to be told.

 

[bubbaking]

Hey Kink, what does ToS mean?

 

[Kink-Link5]

there is a group who ***** and shut down all complaints b/c they look at pm as one would look at melee or brawl (as in nothing can be changed b/c thats how the game is), people have to realize that the people who made pm are not infallible game designers.

plus the way people jumped on kage was ridicules and honestly made me kinda upset, maybe instead of telling him he was wrong and jumping all over him someone could of listened to him he might be saying something important. At the very least maybe having a civil discussion instead of jumping down his throat as some of you did would of been the better option

I don't recall jumping over kage at all. I said in a serious and assertive manner that the new mechanics in PM can be rightfully compared to the unique mechanics already present in other characters, and other people seemed to be saying things along the same lines, how Melee had such a long time for people to grow use to it, and how many players grew up with the game, so anything new would of course seem strange.

I don't think anyone really jumped over him at all; he had an issue and many people simply don't feel the same way about it as him.

Louie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_service

 

[bubbaking]

To be fair, some people did just say he was johning.

And thanks.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I asked him to provide video evidence so we could better understand his qualms. Is that wrong?

It's easier for the designers to see for themselves what exactly is going on through video footage. It's more helpful to be shown than to be told.

i wasn't talking about everyone, but i would say asking for video evidence isnt always right since as kage said he doesnt have recording equipment so what do u expect him to do then? and are you willing to ignore complaints when people cant show video evidence? plus kage is a very high level melee player one would think him being upset might set off some alarms since the melee crowd is a big demographic of this game, and he as i said is a very high level player using the same character he used who only got buffs but he still finds this mu that bad isnt that worrisome?

So while i agree video evidence would be nice, it is not possible or plausible for everyone to be able to record so at times you will need to be told and not shown and when that happens questioning and understanding through adult conversation is the way to go.

 

[DMG]

So you just decided it would be fun to pick on someone on the Internet because they have a different opinion than you?

I'm not sure if there's anything in the ToS about stuff like that, but I'm more than a little hurt that you are singling me out and using me as a target of negative expression. I thought we were friends here.

I do think Wario's animations are really choppy and could use refinement, even if they were designed that way intentionally.

Calm down lil playa. It was temporary and not serious.

I DID IT! Another Wario Jankineer!

 

[cannedbread]

what the **** does bite even do. it doesn't even carry momentum. **** tier command grab, 3.3/10, wouldn't use even if i have a healthy lead.

 

[Kink-Link5]

"Why are you being a ****"
"Dude I was joking, lthumor"

Every conversation on the internet ever.


Ness v Zelda is a silly matchup.

I've always had issue with Wario's animations, especially since he has such fluid (Even when retaining cartooniness) animations in the Wario Land games, which is PM design is specifically meant to invoke.

 

[cannedbread]

why did you quote that?

 

[bubbaking]

Well, I don't think the PMBR can just take the choppy motions that vBrawl gave them and suddenly transform them into the kind of watery fluidity you only find in the heavens.

 

[DMG]

why did you quote that?

Because I was being a bad man and so was my sarcasm.

PMBR, the masses have spoken. Wario needs... A SHRUBBERY!

 

[cannedbread]

wario needs that dreamy backflip that falcon/marth/ike/zss does when they jump backwards

i love those so much

 

[bubbaking]

OMG, sometimes I will RAR with Falcon just so I can see him do that backflip.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Well, I don't think the PMBR can just take the choppy motions that vBrawl gave them and suddenly transform them into the kind of watery fluidity you only find in the heavens.

The team took the time to maticulously remake every frame of the Melee characters' animations so it isn't something that is strictly impossible. It is a matter of hard work but I mean, that's the kind of quality and dedication a team as professional as the PMBR rightfully is capable of.

Not to say the PMBR is lazy, but when members like Magus are working so hard to iron out every little mechanic and frame issue, it makes something like animations seem a trivial difficulty.

 

[cannedbread]

qd turnaround jc =

also i noticed that p:m lucas' bair animation = fox's vbrawl bair

really good advice for new lucas players imo

i might play lucas now

pika's bair looks like shieks too loool

shiekachu

 

[CSDragon]

wario needs that dreamy backflip that falcon/marth/ike/zss does when they jump backwards

i love those so much

Marth needs to calm down his forward jump. He does a double flip with a full twist.

 

[DrinkingFood]

qd turnaround jc =

Ike's fair also has reverse hitboxes similar to how his bair has them, but on the first frame or two and last frame or two of the swing. Meaning if you time it right, you can QD turnaround jc->reverse fair for a potentially sexy and yet janky edgeguard.
If an Ike opponent started edgeguarding me with that, it would strike some kind of fear into my heart that I was no longer competent enough to play the game, even if the two aren't related.

 

[cannedbread]

no one wants to get styled on

it breaks yr pride

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7twm6c1F64c&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Kink-Link5]

This is why you gotta play homo. Take every frame of invincibility on that angel platform you can, breath, stay calm, just keep playing as safe as you can and don't go hard for things you can't get.

If you lose you can at least look back for places to improve instead of just "Oh GOD WHY DID I DO SUCH DUMB ****"

You can't break any pride you don't have.

 

[iLink]

i wasn't talking about everyone, but i would say asking for video evidence isnt always right since as kage said he doesnt have recording equipment so what do u expect him to do then? and are you willing to ignore complaints when people cant show video evidence? plus kage is a very high level melee player one would think him being upset might set off some alarms since the melee crowd is a big demographic of this game, and he as i said is a very high level player using the same character he used who only got buffs but he still finds this mu that bad isnt that worrisome?

So while i agree video evidence would be nice, it is not possible or plausible for everyone to be able to record so at times you will need to be told and not shown and when that happens questioning and understanding through adult conversation is the way to go.

My biggest issue with what he brought up was a bunch of things that are actually avoidable, which brings me to think he hasnt exactly explored the game enough to warrent the backlash at the game.

Lucario's sideb is easily meteor canceled without his charge. Ontop of that, fair > sideb is actually really risky for lucario offstage granted that the opponent isnt DI'ing right into him. No really, try DI'ing away from the fair and sideb will miss a lot.

I don't even know what to say about getting hit with fsmash > fsmash. Thats like getting hit by a double knee.

I was honestly kind of frustrated that someone I looked up to would turn back on his motto like that.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's not like getting hit with double knee. It's like getting hit by Donkey Kong Fair -> Fair in Melee; it doesn't combo at any % against any character with any DI. I just imagine someone literally putting their controller down, and a Lucario player doing fsmash -> downb -> fsmash, and then the someone going crazy. I am utterly confused as to how that is an actual complaint in any sense.

 

[GHNeko]

i wasn't talking about everyone, but i would say asking for video evidence isnt always right since as kage said he doesnt have recording equipment so what do u expect him to do then?

STOP RIGHT THERE, VILE VILLIAN.

Kage is not playing the backrom build. He is playing demo 2.1. This means A LOT.

Why? Because there are 2 versions of 2.1. One that is not wifi/eplay enabled. AND ONE THAT IS.

What does that mean? It means he can save replays of his matches.

Why is that significant?

Because he can save replays of his matches against Lucario to show to us and more importantly, the PMBR.


"But Neko...!"


NO.

He is Kage. There are dozens of people who will willingly watch the replay. There are people who'll record the replay to upload online. I'm one of em.

I also told Kage he has this option. He can use this version. He could of used this version.

"...But what about light pressing and other missing features...!"

Good point. But not good enough. If he wanted to prove a point...or if anyone wants to prove a point. Tolerating a few matches or sets to grab tangible evidence to prove your own point. Yo can adjust to the replay version easily enough so that you can play just as well on the normal version.

No johns @ recording matches.

 

[ph00tbag]

it doesn't combo at any % against any character with any DI.

I think you should actually try it before making such broad claims. There are actually percents and DIs where it works on some characters.

 

[jalued]

Here's what the KO percents look like when you DI those 2 f-smashes btw (Mario, FD, on outer half of stage):

Ike Tip: 57%, Non-Tip: 58%
Bowser Tip: 43%, Non-Tip: 50%

Is it not a bit strange that Ike doesnt really have a sweetspot on his fsmash?

1% difference is not significant enough to make any sort of difference and it seems a bit strange to me that there is not a larger difference

Marth's sweetspot is significantly stronger than the sourspot so marth's require to space well in order to kill.

I feel that Ike should have a stronger sweetspot near the hilt and a sourspot at the end of the blade. Perhaps make it:

Ike Tip: 70%, Non-Tip: 50%

I feel this would reward player's with good spacing and improve the skill required to kill with the fsmash

 

[Kink-Link5]

How does the close hit being stronger reward good spacing exactly? I'm just wondering where your logic follows.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think the idea is that he shouldn't be rewarded so strongly for just throwing it out in some situations.

 

[Kink-Link5]

But he doesn't get rewarded for just throwing it out, he gets rewarded for hitting with a move that has a half-second start up and accompanying half-second cooldown. No character gets rewarded just by inherently using a move.

Well, Toon Link's milk taunt, granted.

I'm not just arguing to argue here, I really don't know what you mean by rewarded for just throwing out the move.

Honestly the only move I have much problem with of Ike's is D-tilt. Low poking hugely disjointed hitbox on a fairly fast ground move that meteors with groundbounce hitstun and a 10 frame cool down. It's like a rapid fire disjointed Falcon dair that's absurdly advantageous on block with plenty of frames to spare on spotdodge/roll.

 

[DMG]

He means that there's no consideration or effort needed on spacing it optimally basically. If Marth wants to tipper, it's a conscience spacing adjustment or goal. Ike doesn't have to tipper or have a specific spacing for "optimal' results, so in places where you would Fsmash you aren't calculating or having to adjust for that kind of spacing. Roy had to focus on spacing even though his sweetspot was close to his body, because the punishment for missing/reward for hitting was lobsided enough.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Just plain silly.

**** "don't shield against Lucario," Kage. Ike's got that aspect covered with one move alone.

I'll give that to Ike, he has easily and by a substantial margin the best D-tilt in the game in many many aspects; Longest disjoint of any D-tilt, one of the fastest cool downs, high[est?] frame advantage on shield, sets up combos with easy hit confirms thanks to that loud confirming BOOM sound effect, frame traps on spotdodge, safe on whiff, shield pokes, meteors non-sweetspotted recoveries.

It's actually quite a beautifully designed move by having every possible strength a move could ask for to cover one weakness. I guess it doesn't anti-air as a consequence of shield poking though- So it doesn't do everything!

I think it's a great model for other moves to follow, since it still falls into the issue of Ike's fastest starting options being ones with puny range. He kind of reminds me of Cirno with fast tiny jabs and giant blasty swings. If other characters had designs like this move, there would be a core weakness a character is built around with strengths made to cover that specific weakness. Instead of matchups being about how to abuse a character's weakness, they become about how to nullify their strengths.

Which is similar I guess, but with different methodology. Abusing weaknesses are things like Game and Watch's crap shield in Melee with pokes knowing he can't do anything about it. Nulling strengths is more about using things that keep a character from doing what they do best, so they have to work not only with their character's but with the opponent's strengths as well. I guess both are part of how matchups play out, but I think which one is emphasised is what makes the character's matchups polarising or not. Since Ike's matchups mostly revolve around abusing the slower start up or endlag of his particular moves, he has really screwy matchups where he does really good or really bad against the other character with a really small middle ground. On the other side, you have characters that are all about nullifying their strengths, like Fox, or Mario who have pretty even matchups across a lot of the cast having no real weaknesses in design- just moves that are strong or average.

Something to think about, two moves with a related design concept- Moves like Rest, with 3 extreme strengths coupled with two huge weaknesses, and moves like Ike's D-tilt with about 3 of being the "Best in show" for an attribute of a particular move, and one weakness fairly universal to the character.

Just something that seemed interesting to me.


Also DMG, I hope this clarifies my view on Ike a little more. I think he has a silly and polarising design, and that because of his big mixbag of matchups he's fairly mid-line/low to me. I exaggerate how low because I mean, there's 28 and a two half-characters in the game so putting him below a lot of the cast makes him look really low, but when the worst characters are only as bad as Melee Ganon/Mario, it's not to say they're like, Kirby tier.

 

[GHNeko]

no one wants to get styled on

it breaks yr pride

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7twm6c1F64c&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpbCBT1TGdg

:V

 

[Medz!]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_m9138477W8

 

[Omni]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_m9138477W8

Ouch, baby. Very ouch.

I guess I'll stop tossing out jabs and agreeing with one-liner "no johns" (even though it's true) for a change.

But I will be frank. (Warning: Drama, salt-inducing text below.)

I think people who are already putting blame on PM's design/structure for their lack of success are simply people who are not good at these kind of fighting games. Period. The game is new and nothing is absolute at this moment aside from region-specific tournament results. And these results are based on a metagame that has not even began to evolve or grow, and yet, verdicts are already being passed about how certain champs are OP or certain character design(s) are broken and/or do not fit in the "classic Melee game engine".

Like... instead of developing countermeasures or discovering hidden talent within the not-so-noticeable realm of unknown why are people whining, complaining, and coming to conclusions to something they know so little about? 2-3 years from now I imagine that most of the complaints being made now will be laughable.

I mean, I get that people like to vent. That's fine, I guess. Just don't be a scrub about it. Scrubs are quick to blame everything else except themselves when they aren't doing well in any given scenario or they're introduced to something that don't fully understand.

 

[Sinz]

My issue with Ike is how linear he is and how little work he takes to do well.

edit:

I also believe that Ike is fun to play and is really close to what he should be. I feel like you guys are doing a good job.

I just feel like it shouldn't be so much reward for so little risk on Ike's part.

 

[victra♥]

Yeah really. What are some cons to Ike ATM?

He hits like a truck and with almost no lag/cooldown, sideb gives him a lot of mobility, spacing with him isn't an issue, and he has so many setups.

 

[Sinz]

Terrible recovery. Even with the walljump out of side b its a really bad recovery.

 

[Divinokage]

Ouch, baby. Very ouch.

I guess I'll stop tossing out jabs and agreeing with one-liner "no johns" (even though it's true) for a change.

But I will be frank. (Warning: Drama, salt-inducing text below.)

I think people who are already putting blame on PM's design/structure for their lack of success are simply people who are not good at these kind of fighting games. Period. The game is new and nothing is absolute at this moment aside from region-specific tournament results. And these results are based on a metagame that has not even began to evolve or grow, and yet, verdicts are already being passed about how certain champs are OP or certain character design(s) are broken and/or do not fit in the "classic Melee game engine".

Like... instead of developing countermeasures or discovering hidden talent within the not-so-noticeable realm of unknown why are people whining, complaining, and coming to conclusions to something they know so little about? 2-3 years from now I imagine that most of the complaints being made now will be laughable.

I mean, I get that people like to vent. That's fine, I guess. Just don't be a scrub about it. Scrubs are quick to blame everything else except themselves when they aren't doing well in any given scenario or they're introduced to something that don't fully understand.

Not good enough for these types of games? What's that supposed to mean? Having complaints about design = not being good.. Uh huh.. tell me about it.