Project M Social Thread

[Omni]

Here I'll help. I also used DDD in vBrawl:

- If DDD's ground game is lacking, then stick to his aerial game.
- He's more than capable of creating a WoP with his b-air.
- Also, you can mix-up his b-air WoP with b-reversal swallows that create a dangerous mix-up for people who stick to their shield.
- DDD's full hop d-air is stupid good. Great shield pressure and allows for double jump mix.
- Don't get caught in you shield. It's clear that he has a weakness for shield pressure and CQC since he doesn't have a Bowser-isque "GTFO" move.
- Jabs were buffed to allow for better follow ups.

K, now go make it work.

 

[`dazrin]

I thought we weren't allowed to suggest changes for already released chars in smashmods. That's what strongbad said anyway.

You aren't.
PRNeko is just being dumb.
I think what Neko meant was that analysis and feedback is welcome, but we aren't accepting character change suggestions at this time.

EG:
"Wario lacks X, and struggles in certain MUs because of it"

as opposed to:

"Give wario is bike back."

 

[SpiderMad]

People should to start uploading replays to back their claims.

It'd be nice in terms of trying to make a point.

Purpose or no?

 

[GHNeko]

Purpose or no?

The purpose of uploading replays of Demo 2.1 is for other people to download and watch, or for someone else to record and upload for others to watch.

this way you can get critique, analyze match ups, and if you're trying to prove a point when it comes to a match up or to a character being too good or to bad or too what, you can post some sort of evidence to back up your claim.

It's also healthy for the community when people can see what you're talking about/when you can show people what you're talking about, as opposed to bantering back and forth going "RABLE RABBLE RAAHHHBLE", and nothing gets proven or settled and the topic eventually sours and is dropped.

 

[Omni]

Speaking of which.

I need the frame data for every character in the game. I know you guys have it somewhere stockpiled in that secret PMBR.

Give it to me. I want it. I want it willingly. I wannit.

 

[SpiderMad]

The purpose of uploading replays of Demo 2.1 is for other people to download and watch, or for someone else to record and upload for others to watch.

this way you can get critique, analyze match ups, and if you're trying to prove a point when it comes to a match up or to a character being too good or to bad or too what, you can post some sort of evidence to back up your claim.

It's also healthy for the community when people can see what you're talking about/when you can show people what you're talking about, as opposed to bantering back and forth going "RABLE RABBLE RAAHHHBLE", and nothing gets proven or settled and the topic eventually sours and is dropped.

I would interchange the word replay for recording, otherwise It seemed like a funny play on wifi deemed complaints. Maybe the newest version of P:M has replays working in the offline version.

 

[GP&B]

Speaking of which.

I need the frame data for every character in the game. I know you guys have it somewhere stockpiled in that secret PMBR.

Give it to me. I want it. I want it willingly. I wannit.

Some but not all of the hitbox data is up on Smashmods. I know Ike, Zelda, and DDD have threads for them. There's also a thread in gen. discussion that has frame data for almost every character attribute.

 

[GHNeko]

I would interchange the word replay for recording, otherwise It seemed like a funny play on wifi deemed complaints. Maybe the newest version of P:M has replays working in the offline version.

It doesnt, unfortunately, but if you're trying to prove a point or want critique, the short comings of the wifi/replay version aren't that significant enough to where you can't play almost as good as you would in the offline version, and just long enough to get the replays you want.

 

[Omni]

Some but not all of the hitbox data is up on Smashmods. I know Ike, Zelda, and DDD have threads for them. There's also a thread in gen. discussion that has frame data for almost every character attribute.

Yeah, I have Ike, Zelda, DDD, and Pit's frame data. SmashGuru and that other guy did a really good job compiling them.

I'll check out that link to see if I can find any more information. Thanks, bro.

Edit: Oh, I've seen that list. Yeah, that's the general shiz. I want the specifics of each character. Wish I knew how to compile them myself.

 

[GHNeko]

I think what Neko meant was that analysis and feedback is welcome, but we aren't accepting character change suggestions at this time.

EG:
"Wario lacks X, and struggles in certain MUs because of it"

as opposed to:

"Give wario is bike back."

1. This is what i meant.
2. Shut up Daze.

 

[GP&B]

Yeah, I have Ike, Zelda, DDD, and Pit's frame data. SmashGuru and that other guy did a really good job compiling them.

I'll check out that link to see if I can find any more information. Thanks, bro.

Edit: Oh, I've seen that list. Yeah, that's the general shiz. I want the specifics of each character. Wish I knew how to compile them myself.

Latest BrawlBox should be able to view PSA data, ie. hitboxes along with the respective Fitcharmotionetc.pac. Take a screenshot of each frame and make a .gif of it. Might need to account for any added frame speed modifiers. I'd ask Guru or Monk about how to accurately put it together.

 

[abcool]

Anyway, since everyone else is complaining about this and that character. I finally beat that blasted Link i was having problems with using Wario. Advice on how to keep this victory would also help. Also, i noticed Lucario is a tough matchup for Wario, my plan is to stay airborne and never shield, just DI away and sometimes in when in the air to avoid the "death grab" I will post more vids later. The community in he Bahamas is on and off and have a small player pool, but i still try to increase it and improve regardless.

Edit: Some of my videos have a static sound, idk how to fix it atm

http://youtu.be/4efwKGAHcvw

 

[Omni]

Anyway, since everyone else is complaining about this and that character. I finally beat that blasted Link i was having problems with using Wario. Advice on how to keep this victory would also help. Also, i noticed Lucario is a tough matchup for Wario, my plan is to stay airborne and never shield, just DI away and sometimes in when in the air to avoid the "death grab" I will post more vids later. The community in he Bahamas is on and off and have a small player pool, but i still try to increase it and improve regardless.

Edit: Some of my videos have a static sound, idk how to fix it atm

http://youtu.be/4efwKGAHcvw

Good stuffs. Be careful with how you get back on the stage; you're a bit reckless from what I saw in the first two stocks. Don't have time to examine the rest, but glad that you're improving.

 

[victra♥]

Also, whats with the change to Toon Link's up-b? Why make it so bad lol.

And Pit's up-b, dafuq is that.

Lastly, whats the difference between sonic's side-b and down-b. Is it really like, super subtle differences? Seems silly that theyre two separate moves.

 

[GP&B]

Toon Link's Up B now functions as a KO move akin to N64 Link's Up B. It's also a pretty dangerous edgeguard against low recovering characters and it can easily combo out of Dthrow/Uthrow where appropriate. This shows how to get a bit more out of his otherwise awful recovery.

Pit's Up B serves a similar function, making his command glide a far bigger part of his recovery (and changing his recovery type from vertical to horizontal).

I commented on your vid, abcool.

 

[leelue]

whats the difference between sonic's side-b and down-b. Is it really like, super subtle differences? Seems silly that theyre two separate moves.

*Side B doesn't require any spinning to charge it
*Side B can be used for recovery without doing something known as a "spinshot". Using Side B lets you have greater control over his trajectory, as long as you have a double jump.
*Side B Is awesomo
*Aerial Side B apparently has 6 frames of invincibility for god knows why, even if it isn't practical in very much any way.

*Down B can be cancelled with shield, either by landing out of an aerial one or while charging.
*Aerial Down B doesn't hop
*Aerial down B has something known as a spinshot. Basically makes you fly at like a 35 degree angle as long as you have fast fingers and a double jump.
*Charging down B does minimal damage to shields.
*Down B can reset people

I agree that almost all of the relevant functionality of the moves could be consolidated into one move.

 

[GP&B]

Consolidate it and change his Down B to a fourth taunt, thus continuing his reign of top tier taunting material.

 

[cannedbread]

pit's upb wants to be like toon link's upb but it can't. it's supposed to be an aerial finisher but it's risky. it leaves him helpless and needs to be sweetspotted or else it does mediocre knockback. i only use it for platform techchases. it's actually pretty good at that.

 

[leelue]

That is the one place where he is undisputed king, GD

 

[ELI-mination]

Shhhhhhhhh Leelue stop being helpful
You're not supposed to work well with others

 

[9Kplus1]

DDD is a grappling char with a horrible CQC game. Like, how does that even compute? He has no options right in front of his face other than grab and maybe dtilt. I main the char in vBrawl and I feel like I'm playing him in P:M exactly the same way. The dude needs better grounded options than reaching for the chain grab that he doesn't have any more.

Jab comes out on frame 7; Jet Hammer comes out on frame 6. His CQC isn't anything to brag about, but it's far from horrible.

 

[bubbaking]

It doesnt, unfortunately, but if you're trying to prove a point or want critique, the short comings of the wifi/replay version aren't that significant enough to where you can't play almost as good as you would in the offline version, and just long enough to get the replays you want.

I don't think one can buffer a roll or jump OoS with the C-stick in the Wifi version, and that's actually a major difference.

i noticed Lucario is a tough matchup for Wario, my plan is to stay airborne and never shield, just DI away and sometimes in when in the air to avoid the "death grab"

Probably every MU is a tough MU for Wario... Never shield is pretty much everyone's game plan to deal with Lucario.

 

[GHNeko]

I don't think one can buffer a roll or jump OoS with the C-stick in the Wifi version, and that's actually a major difference.

That's correct, but still. If you really want to prove a point or you really want critique, it's still a better option than not posting anything at all

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, I get what you're saying.

Jab comes out on frame 7; Jet Hammer comes out on frame 6. His CQC isn't anything to brag about, but it's far from horrible.

A frame 7 jab when so many other chars have a frame 2 or 3 jab? Lolz, a grab is usually 6-7 frames. That means you can grab DDD's jab if done at the same time. That's horrible, because jabs are oftentimes used to interrupt grab mix-ups.

Example: Falcon ditto. One Falcon attempts to jab > grab the other, but in between the two attacks, the second Falcon jabs the first one back to foil the grab attempt.

DDD can't even do this basic thing. Having to depend on.......Jet Hammer as a faster option than jab is just sad, considering how much lag that thing has.

Edit: Looking at the whole roster, I think (don't quote me on this) that DDD has the slowest jab in P:M right now. If not, then it's definitely one of them. Maybe Marth's is slower. Idk...

 

[Omni]

Probably every MU is a tough MU for Wario... Never shield is pretty much everyone's game plan to deal with Lucario.

Anyone with a really good OOS options can safely destroy Lucario's "shield" game.

- Bowser's fortress
- Sonic's upb
- Wario's upb
- Fox/Falco/Wolf shield out of shine
- Peach's upb, etc.

Also, all of Lucario's tilts can be CC'd. So at low-mid range percents, you can CC spam a high priority or fast move like shine and stop Lucario's chain. His dash attack, however, has some weird ability where it has a different effect on CC'ing.

The key to beating Lucario is simply baiting his dash attack. So far from what I've seen, it's every Lucario's favorite start-up combo move and it has a LOT of wind down. If you dash dance or even sidestep it, there is a lot of wind-up time for it to be punished.

Another key to beating Lucario is forcing him to approach you because his approach game isn't very strong. He has to ninja his way in and attempt to find an opening, but it's not very strong. Lucario is an opportunist.

Lucario also has no way of getting out of shield pressure. Fastest move out of shield is d-air which is more of a punish rather then reversal. I.e. Pillaring him with Falco is very strong.

Lastly, gimp the hell out of this guy. Extremely telegraphed recovery. If he has a super stocked, just assume he's gonna cancel his up+b into an air dodge and punish. But against a good edgegaurded, Lucario should NOT be recovering back onto the stage without being punished hard.

I can go on and on about Lucario. I've been using him solely since I've been playing and it's easy to see where his strengths and weaknesses lay. I, personally, think he is a spacies type character where his metagame will evolve at a rate similar to how Fox/Falco's did in Melee. He will become really, really strong later in his metagame as more people become skilled with him, but a lot of people will develop anti-Lucario games that will obliterate below-average Lucario players.

A frame 7 jab when so many other chars have a frame 2 or 3 jab? Lolz, a grab is usually 6-7 frames. That means you can grab DDD's jab if done at the same time. That's horrible, because jabs are oftentimes used to interrupt grab mix-ups.

Example: Falcon ditto. One Falcon attempts to jab > grab the other, but in between the two attacks, the second Falcon jabs the first one back to foil the grab attempt.

DDD can't even do this basic thing. Having to depend on.......Jet Hammer as a faster option than jab is just sad, considering how much lag that thing has.

Edit: Looking at the whole roster, I think (don't quote me on this) that DDD has the slowest jab in P:M right now. If not, then it's definitely one of them. Maybe Marth's is slower. Idk...

...Then don't use DDD's jab. LOL. You said something about DDD being a "grappler", but just because he has the best grab range does not mean he has the best tools to utilize them. Try exploiting DDD's strong air game first. DDD should not be grounded unless he's tech chasing or poking from a distance with f-tilt.

 

[leelue]

Shhhhhhhhh Leelue stop being helpful
You're not supposed to work well with others

leeluetaunt.gif

Omni, were you the Lucario I played in Loser's semis?

 

[Youngling]

if sonic had demo 1 fair and a different side b or down b.... I would be happy.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's pretty easy to SDI out of Wario's Up-B so that the last hit doesn't get you. Then you can easily punish Wario.

Also, Dedede's pivot grab is still as obnoxious as before. Use that.

 

[Omni]

leeluetaunt.gif

Omni, were you the Lucario I played in Loser's semis?

Ye s!

 

[leelue]

if sonic had demo 1 fair

@Omni
It's nice that I only had to play you once. **** that
I don't remember if it was 2-0 or 2-1, and I can't find the matches on youtube

 

[ELI-mination]

It was 2-1, it's not on youtube. I have the stream downloaded though from vgbootcamp. (I have no idea why it's not on youtube yet)

The first two matches were mutual beatdowns, with the 3rd match on FD being very close.

Really awesome, intense set

 

[Dingding123]

Yeah, I get what you're saying.



A frame 7 jab when so many other chars have a frame 2 or 3 jab? Lolz, a grab is usually 6-7 frames. That means you can grab DDD's jab if done at the same time. That's horrible, because jabs are oftentimes used to interrupt grab mix-ups.

Example: Falcon ditto. One Falcon attempts to jab > grab the other, but in between the two attacks, the second Falcon jabs the first one back to foil the grab attempt.

DDD can't even do this basic thing. Having to depend on.......Jet Hammer as a faster option than jab is just sad, considering how much lag that thing has.

Edit: Looking at the whole roster, I think (don't quote me on this) that DDD has the slowest jab in P:M right now. If not, then it's definitely one of them. Maybe Marth's is slower. Idk...

well he dos haev a big hamer

counts 4 somthig

 

[leelue]

GOD I love going to FD with sonic. I'm almost undefeated there in tournament settings

****ing Eli

 

[Omni]

@Omni
It's nice that I only had to play you once. **** that
I don't remember if it was 2-0 or 2-1, and I can't find the matches on youtube

It was 2-1, it's not on youtube. I have the stream downloaded though from vgbootcamp. (I have no idea why it's not on youtube yet)

The first two matches were mutual beatdowns, with the 3rd match on FD being very close.

Really awesome, intense set

Yeah, what Eli said. Was an extremely awesome set. Felt like we were both unfamiliar with the match-up and were simply trying to adapt to one another on the fly.

 

[GP&B]

I love seeing dingding's posts. The kig dehndehn image just reinforces the ridiculous spelling.

 

[cannedbread]

at one point he didn't type like that. i'm not sure what happened between then and now but i am grateful for it

 

[GHNeko]

Dingding is easily the best poster in this thread.

 

[Omni]

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/332320302
http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/332332520
- Me (Lucario) vs. JCaesar (ROB/Marth) - 2:23:00
- Me (Lucario) vs. LeeLue (Sonic) - 3:08:36
- Me (Lucario) vs. WGS (Lucas/Marth) - 3:50:25


http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/332341636
- Me (Lucario) vs. Cmart (Bowser) - 0:01:05 (ABSOLUTE ****. This is what happens when a person fights Bowser for the first time in PM. Just... absolute confusion and destruction.)

 

[iLink]

Anyone with a really good OOS options can safely destroy Lucario's "shield" game.

- Bowser's fortress
- Sonic's upb
- Wario's upb
- Fox/Falco/Wolf shield out of shine
- Peach's upb, etc.

I briefly tested some of this with lucario's jab > sideb on shield. Fortress will just trade hits with lucario's sideb while still getting grabbed. I'm pretty sure wario's is as fast if not slower too. No idea about the other ones. Dash attack has more shield stun then jab so I don't know how many of those are even a viable option against that.

Also, all of Lucario's tilts can be CC'd. So at low-mid range percents, you can CC spam a high priority or fast move like shine and stop Lucario's chain. His dash attack, however, has some weird ability where it has a different effect on CC'ing.

This is true but not always recommended unless you have a fast option out of a CC like the shine you mentioned.

The key to beating Lucario is simply baiting his dash attack. So far from what I've seen, it's every Lucario's favorite start-up combo move and it has a LOT of wind down. If you dash dance or even sidestep it, there is a lot of wind-up time for it to be punished.

This x100000000000. He literally has no other good entry option. His aerials are hard to follow up with so it isn't too dangerous to be hit by something like fair.

Another key to beating Lucario is forcing him to approach you because his approach game isn't very strong. He has to ninja his way in and attempt to find an opening, but it's not very strong. Lucario is an opportunist.

Same as above I guess. He has to dash dance around a lot and look for an opening for that dash attack.

Lucario also has no way of getting out of shield pressure. Fastest move out of shield is d-air which is more of a punish rather then reversal. I.e. Pillaring him with Falco is very strong.

I also agree.

Lastly, gimp the hell out of this guy. Extremely telegraphed recovery. If he has a super stocked, just assume he's gonna cancel his up+b into an air dodge and punish. But against a good edgegaurded, Lucario should NOT be recovering back onto the stage without being punished hard.

I also agree that his recovery is subpar. If he doesn't have a charge, he is super vulnerable. His upb is negative on hit and there shouldn't really be any reason you aren't punishing him for not having a charge.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario's Up-B is frame 6. Is Bowser's Up-B still frame 5?