Project M Social Thread

[Omni]

My issue with Ike is how linear he is and how little work he takes to do well.

Define "linear" and "do well".

Because I see this trend in many, many fighting games. Game comes out and there's a clear character that has a very strong kit at its basic level.

- Street Fighter 4: Sagat
- Melee: Marth
- Brawl: Snake/DDD
- P4A: Mitsuru

But as the metagame develops these characters tend to start becoming outclassed due to... time. People discover new techniques with new characters and sometimes come up with specific set-ups that can annihilate certain characters (Sheik CG). In my opinion, Marth is very similar to Ike in regards to being both "linear" and being able to "do well" with little effort. And the only reason why Ike does well is because most people don't understand, at the moment, how to deal with Ike. Anti-Ike strategies are already in the making.

Not good enough for these types of games? What's that supposed to mean? Having complaints about design = not being good.. Uh huh.. tell me about it.

I think people who are already putting blame on PM's design/structure for their lack of success are simply people who are not good at these kind of fighting games.

 

[leelue]

Plenty of people complaining aren't very good, but even the good players take issue with select things. I don't think omnis argument was very comprehensive, for what it's worth.

Edit
Pretty sure kage was riled up after being unsuccessful against lucario (who he thinks is alien to the game). Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Omni]

My argument is that people who are blaming the PM mechanics in regards to their lack of success suck.

Having a problem with the design as a whole is an entirely different concept in itself.

I still think it's silly when people come to conclusions and absolutes so early within a game's metagame.

 

[leelue]

Oh, so are you referring to things like brawl frame delay johns?

 

[ELI-mination]

I just started using Lucario, and he's mad fun.

Also, on a side-note, Ike is one of my favorite characters to fight against. There are a lot more characters in the game I have a lot more trouble with than Ike. And yes I have fought a good Ike before.

 

[bubbaking]

Took you too long, man... (-_-)

 

[ELI-mination]

Also I wanna say that the "brawl newcomers" are awesome. Nothing about them is broken. You all just need to step it up, seriously. Stop your whining and step up your game.

 

[Omni]

Oh, so are you referring to things like brawl frame delay johns?

"Ike is OP." vs. "Kink-Link's analysis of Ike's d-tilt." basically.

I just started using Lucario, and he's mad fun.

Also, on a side-note, Ike is one of my favorite characters to fight against. There are a lot more characters in the game I have a lot more trouble with than Ike. And yes I have fought a good Ike before.

Yeah, I really like playing against Ike, too. He feels very telegraphed to me.

 

[bubbaking]

About the Ike fsmash issue, I actually think making the sweetspot near the hilt would be a good idea and it DOES make more sense. Roy had such an fsmash and Ike isn't a bad char like Roy was, so he can afford to have one such move. Besides, Ike always struck me as a straight-up brawler who'd rather be in your face duking it out (that JAB, man). Having the sweetspot near the hilt would make sense for Ike more than....................Roy.

 

[Omni]

Sigh.

Wish people would focus more on strengthening character match-ups and developing counter-strategies rather then finding something that is difficult/strange to deal with and jumping to the conclusion that it needs to be changed.

 

[bubbaking]

I didn't find anything. I'm just commenting on the Ike fsmash sweetspot issue that was brought up earlier. That is all.

 

[9Kplus1]

You want people to refrain from jumping to the topic of wanted changes? In this thread?? Good luck with that. Check out Smashmods lmao; Demo 2.1's metagame (match-ups and whatnot) is constantly being discussed there.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, isn't that where it should be discussed? :/

 

[DMG]

Define "linear" and "do well".

Because I see this trend in many, many fighting games. Game comes out and there's a clear character that has a very strong kit at its basic level.

- Street Fighter 4: Sagat
- Melee: Marth
- Brawl: Snake/DDD
- P4A: Mitsuru

But as the metagame develops these characters tend to start becoming outclassed due to... time. People discover new techniques with new characters and sometimes come up with specific set-ups that can annihilate certain characters (Sheik CG). In my opinion, Marth is very similar to Ike in regards to being both "linear" and being able to "do well" with little effort. And the only reason why Ike does well is because most people don't understand, at the moment, how to deal with Ike. Anti-Ike strategies are already in the making.

You might wanna clarify Sagat, because Vanilla Sagat would be a poor example of being outclassed lol. His *** got nerfed and others buffed before that kit wasn't good enough to molest everyone.

 

[metroid1117]

Define "linear" and "do well".

Because I see this trend in many, many fighting games. Game comes out and there's a clear character that has a very strong kit at its basic level.

- Street Fighter 4: Sagat
- Melee: Marth
- Brawl: Snake/DDD
- P4A: Mitsuru

But as the metagame develops these characters tend to start becoming outclassed due to... time. People discover new techniques with new characters and sometimes come up with specific set-ups that can annihilate certain characters (Sheik CG). In my opinion, Marth is very similar to Ike in regards to being both "linear" and being able to "do well" with little effort. And the only reason why Ike does well is because most people don't understand, at the moment, how to deal with Ike. Anti-Ike strategies are already in the making.

I agree 100% with the bolded part. I definitely feel like Ike has more tricks to discover (especially with QD, his option are ridiculous), but Ike is much more manageable with a lot of match-up experience. At the last tournament, Rat and Kels' familiarity with Ike's range really showed when they kept baiting me like fishermen. It's like what Leffen, Umbreon, Kinklink, and others have said - bait with dash dances and punish Ike when he lands. However, I think that Ike has options to deal with such tactics, I just got out-played. (My placings are finally reflecting my mediocrity in Melee!)

 

[Omni]

I'm going to stop pushing my point after this because it doesn't seem to be getting across properly.

Topic: "'Ike is really strong."

Most responses: "OP." "Change this." "This mechanic doesn't make sense." "Why is Ike... etc."

Could be responses: "Well, this character does well against Ike.", "You can get around this move from Ike with this technique here.", "You can combo Ike with this character in this way,", etc.

But since this is a general thread I guess I can't realistically weed out the two. I just think the former is way too heavily discussed compared to the latter.

You might wanna clarify Sagat, because Vanilla Sagat would be a poor example of being outclassed lol. His *** got nerfed and others buffed before that kit wasn't good enough to molest everyone.

EVO 2009 - Vanilla results
1. Daigo Umehara (Ryu)
2. Justin Wong (Rufus, Boxer, Abel)
3. Ed Ma (Akuma)
4. Sanford "Santhrax" Kelly (Akuma, Cammy)
5. Long "ShadyK" Tran (Akuma)
5. Eduardo "Vvv scrub" Perez-frangie (Boxer, E. Honda)
7. Takashi "Dan from Japan" Hukushi (Ryu)
7. Ricky Ortiz (Rufus)

Sagat was a noobstomper. And only a small select few Sagat's actually took top places, but rarely ever 1st. Let's not get into this because we've been there and done that.

 

[bubbaking]

Define "linear" and "do well".

Because I see this trend in many, many fighting games. Game comes out and there's a clear character that has a very strong kit at its basic level.

- Street Fighter 4: Sagat
- Melee: Marth
- Brawl: Snake/DDD
- P4A: Mitsuru

But as the metagame develops these characters tend to start becoming outclassed due to... time. People discover new techniques with new characters and sometimes come up with specific set-ups that can annihilate certain characters (Sheik CG). In my opinion, Marth is very similar to Ike in regards to being both "linear" and being able to "do well" with little effort. And the only reason why Ike does well is because most people don't understand, at the moment, how to deal with Ike. Anti-Ike strategies are already in the making.

Problems here:

• Street Fighter 4 is probably a much more balanced game than P:M can attest to at the moment. They have A+, A, and A- tiers. I believe Sagat was in A.
• Marth is top of High Tier. His only real problems are Top Tier chars. Comparing Ike to Melee Marth infers that he only loses to a select few who are built to defeat him.
• Snake is Top Tier. DDD's a tier barrier and is a really sloppy design. Comparing Ike to both infers both.
• I don't know anything about P4A.

 

[victra♥]

Regardless, I think it's clear that Ike is a pretty strong character in P:M. I definitely agree with Omni on how we should give it some time to see how we can deal with Ike.

I think we should focus more on buffing the characters that are notably weak atm, like GaW, DDD, and Wario

 

[GHNeko]

Omni, you and I should really talk fighting games one of these days.

Tangent, sure, but I feel like I had to get that out there. lol.

Also, D3 isnt like GaW or Zard weak. he's pretty reasonable, like only slightly behind the bell curve imo.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, how did Zard not get mentioned there?

 

[victra♥]

Yeah yeah charizard too. The guy is still fun as hell to play though

 

[GHNeko]

Fun to play, but man will you work up a sweat winning with him.

 

[Omni]

The "meh" characters I found were G&W and Charizard for sure.

Wario feels a bit lacking, but that's probably because people aren't camping well enough until they have fart. Pretty sure he has a few automatic combo situations where he can combo into it. Would be dangerous to buff him.

DDD seems like it'd be really scary to buff him. I can't think of any character aside from Marth that can go well out the range of the stage and gimp characters with his gdlk b-air. He's like the fat version of Marth.

Toon Link felt really, really meh.

I think Pikachu is a sleeper top tier.

Melee characters OP. /amidoingthisright

 

[trash?]

The problem with most of these complaints about Ike is that very few of them actually try to fit into reality. There's very little in the way of actual evidence, and far too much in the way of anecdotes.

It's not like there isn't examples of characters that have shown to break games early on in a metagame. Sentinel was absolutely horrible at the beginning of MvC3's lifespan, and even despite his constant nerfs, he's still used constantly by many of the top players. Difference being, there was actual black-and-white stuff to support the nerfs for Sentinel. Unlike now, where everyone's just kind of stuttering "nerf n-nerf NERF" over and over again.

Also: I don't think Street Fighter is a good comparison, because SF4 is balanced enough now where the one character designed to be the worst still isn't as bad as low-tiers in other fighting games.

 

[GHNeko]

People should to start uploading replays to back their claims.

It'd be nice in terms of trying to make a point.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Omni, full Waft isn't like Rest or anything; it still doesn't adequately KO until ~50% or so. Outside of a grab on fastfallers, very little outright reliably combos into Waft, and all of Wario's reasonably-useful spacing options can be shielded or crouch canceled without fear of follow-up pressure, and his aerials are positioned so that they trade more often than they beat offensive opponents.

The real trouble is how difficult it is to apply pressure with Wario, since a vast majority of his "safe" damage will be dealt in single hits, rather than in strings.

 

[9Kplus1]

Also, D3 isnt like GaW or Zard weak. he's pretty reasonable, like only slightly behind the bell curve imo.

Could you state your reasoning behind this claim? DDD is most certainly not "slightly behind the bell curve".

 

[GHNeko]

Predictable/interceptable recovery, big and fat ie combo bait. meh oos/defensive options. good portion of his moves have average start up or more. Not that many reliable kill moves.

I'm not saying he's bad. He's a good character, but there are a lot of characters who are just overall better.

His grab game and rage is legit. His range is fantastic. He does good damage. He's got solid gimmicks. His recovery still goes far, and he's got multi jumps. he also has gimps and pokes for days.

 

[Sinz]

Plenty of people complaining aren't very good, but even the good players take issue with select things. I don't think omnis argument was very comprehensive, for what it's worth.

Edit
Pretty sure kage was riled up after being unsuccessful against lucario (who he thinks is alien to the game). Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thank you for doing the argument of if you don't agree you aren't good.

Because I totally am a terrible player. I haven't placed top in all of the previous smashes (state and region) for over 10 years. I haven't been competitive. I am actually pretty good at Project M. This argument of people being bad is a terrible one.

Yes, I know Ike isn't that "great" as everyone makes him out to be. But completely disregarding what competitive players is saying is completely stupid. And not only disregarding it but saying they aren't very good is just so stupid.

On the Ike vs Marth comparison in Melee. There was a lot more spacing involved with Marth in melee. If you ****ed up once on your spacing with Marth you get combod to death. Ike has a little bit more breathing room(Not much. I'm not saying he can't be punished.).

By linear I meant that there is not going to be any growth in Ike's game. After two or so games you can pretty much figure out every one of Ike's tricks and not really ever expect to find out anything more. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's just something that people don't like as much. They want to be able to invest their time into a character and mold that character into their play style. There isn't much versatility with Ike's moveset. It just feels like a lot of things were forced to be this way. Jumpcancel this, walljump this, superarmor this. L-cancel this. He is just extremely linear. Marth's game in melee had growth. People learned more and more mix ups with Marth. What are Ike's mix ups going to be?

 

[ELI-mination]

Regardless of somebody's placing in tournaments or how good people think they are etc... A john is a john is a john is a john. Seriously. If you just complain about things instead of trying to overcome them, then don't expect to be respected based on your tournament placings.

As for mixups... these remain to be seen. You can't just say from now that Ike won't have mixups. Demo 2.1 has been out for how long?

 

[GHNeko]

Not even half a year.

 

[Sinz]

Regardless of somebody's placing in tournaments or how good people think they are etc... A john is a john is a john is a john. Seriously. If you just complain about things instead of trying to overcome them, then don't expect to be respected based on your tournament placings.

As for mixups... these remain to be seen. You can't just say from now that Ike won't have mixups. Demo 2.1 has been out for how long?

It just seems like outside of QD gimmicks he doesn't offer much in terms of mix ups.

I'm ****ing trying to give how I feel about this mod for a game. If you don't want people's opinions or their views on the game then ****ing close the thread. Every time I see ANYONE give any critiques of this game people go ape**** on that person saying they are bad and all this crap.

 

[victra♥]

Oh btw neko, p:m is still being worked on right? You guys just dont have a finalized release date for v3 yeah?

You guys should make sexy teasers after a new character has been developed, like when brawl was being released.

I want to relive the excitement knowing I won't get my dreams crushe at the end haha

Also buff wario pls

 

[bubbaking]

DDD is a grappling char with a horrible CQC game. Like, how does that even compute? He has no options right in front of his face other than grab and maybe dtilt. I main the char in vBrawl and I feel like I'm playing him in P:M exactly the same way. The dude needs better grounded options than reaching for the chain grab that he doesn't have any more.

 

[GHNeko]

Oh btw neko, p:m is still being worked on right? You guys just dont have a finalized release date for v3 yeah?

You guys should make sexy teasers after a new character has been developed, like when brawl was being released.

I want to relive the excitement knowing I won't get my dreams crushe at the end haha

Also buff wario pls

yes P:M is still being worked on. We dont have a release date for the next release.

as for how we're going to handle our PR. I can't say nor will i even drop a hint.

I'm sworn in by secrecy and if I uttered a single syllable, Ryoko would be waiting for me somewhere, ready to take my last and only stock. For good.



Also, if you have suggestions for wario. Post them here or in the wario:m forums on smashmods. your choice, but they'll be read.

 

[victra♥]

Sweet thanks neko. You guys are so hardcore haha.

Ill register on smashmods

 

[bubbaking]

And for some reason, the PMBR felt the need to remove one of his jumps and the super armor on his upB. It's lol-EASY to edgeguard his recovery now. Just stick a leg out at high %'s and he's way too far out to even think about attempting to recover again.

 

[Omni]

DDD is a grappling char with a horrible CQC game. Like, how does that even compute? He has no options right in front of his face other than grab and maybe dtilt. I main the char in vBrawl and I feel like I'm playing him in P:M exactly the same way. The dude needs better grounded options than reaching for the chain grab that he doesn't have any more.

No johns.

Find a way to make it work instead of complaining that DDD doesn't have the current tools to do so himself. It's more than possible to be the guy that revolutionizes a character, but it's next to impossible if you're already admitting defeat after only a few months of actual usage.

 

[bubbaking]

Also, if you have suggestions for wario. Post them here or in the wario:m forums on smashmods. your choice, but they'll be read.

I thought we weren't allowed to suggest changes for already released chars in smashmods. That's what strongbad said anyway.

 

[UltiMario]

I miss the days of this being a hype thread rather than a Johns thread.