Project M Social Thread

[bubbaking]

Let's not forget that the move hits behind him. XD

 

[leelue]

Let's just be serious and say that the only way not to get hit is when you're in the magnifying glass.

 

[bubbaking]

Heaven forbid that Ike has power and range. I will say that Ike's reward off a simple read (or a mistake on his opponent's part) is a little silly but that's it.

Edit: My opinion on Ike is always changing. Sometimes, he's stupid and sometimes he's just silly. I still say he's a bad design, though...

 

[Kink-Link5]

Also Giant Punch has arm invincibilty on low-power, full body invincibility at full strength, and hits on frames 17-21 of 51 with IASA on frame 45, while Ike's F-smash hits on frames 30-36 of 77 with IASA on frame 57.

Magus, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Frame speed modifiers and special start/loops are hard to account for with frame data.

 

[bubbaking]

Kink, the problem here is that DK has to CHARGE his PUNCH for it to be a killing move like Ike's.

Edit: And I'm sure DK's punch doesn't hit on frame 17 if it's not fully charged.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The problem here is that they are two moves with different functions that are used completely differently and have incomparable attributes.

Uncharged punch has 8+[charge] frames added to its startup.

 

[bubbaking]

Who cares about "arm invincibility"? Ike has sword invincibility. Get at that!

But then why are you analyzing the two side-by-side?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Who cares about "arm invincibility"? Ike has sword invincibility. Get at that!

But then why are you analyzing the two side-by-side?

I'm not, DMG is. I'm contrasting them where he is looking for similarities as the basis of his argument against Ike's F-smash.

 

[DMG]

I don't hate the move, per se. It's always been a scary move whether you were in Melee or Brawl. What I dislike is HOW strong it hits. He literally hits harder with this move than DK winding up. Now sure you can say "BUT DK CAN COMBO WITH CARGO UP INTO PUNCH" or similar things. I'm not disputing them or even trying to compare landing Ike's Fsmash vs other powerful moves. What I'm saying is that strictly from a power perspective, without the specific nitty gritty comparisons, IT HITS HARD! A bit harder than I like. The move doesn't feel or look like it should be this way. When you see Bowser throw his entire body at you, when you see DK charge his butt up, YOU EXPECT FIREWORKS. When Ike swings his sword, sure he's strong he's supposed to hit hard but not *that* strong.

 

[Magus420]

Here's what the KO percents look like when you DI those 2 f-smashes btw (Mario, FD, on outer half of stage):

Ike Tip: 57%, Non-Tip: 58%
Bowser Tip: 43%, Non-Tip: 50%

 

[bubbaking]

DMG does make sense, but only when you look at it purely from that "strength" perspective. As I said, Ike's rewards off of simple reads or errors (or just dumb luck) are a little ridiculous.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Oh; I didn't even bother looking at damage dealt. DK's Standard B deals 27 damage compared to Ike's 24 damage F-smash. Perhaps some Magus wizardry is in order to account for this.

 

[bubbaking]

But again, that standard B needs to be charged. DMG is arguing that DK (and Boozer) has to work for his damage and KB while Ike gets his for free.

 

[Kink-Link5]

In what way? He kills later than Bowser, he can't do it in the air, or with invincibility, or as quickly compared to DK. The only difference is that it's Ike so it has to be a problem.

 

[leelue]

kink
Ike has a lot of incredibly powerful, long range options. If they didn't encompass damn near his entire moveset, I don't think people would mind his fsmash as much as people tend to.

Edit
Combined with his mobility

 

[DMG]

In what way? He kills later than Bowser, he can't do it in the air, or with invincibility, or as quickly compared to DK. The only difference is that it's Ike so it has to be a problem.

You think Ike is mid tier, of course this is all going to sound ridiculous to you.

 

[Kink-Link5]

You think Ike is mid tier, of course this is all going to sound ridiculous to you.

And you think Ike breaks the game, you're going to look for any and everything you can to reinforce that belief.

 

[DMG]

I don't actually. I think he's top 5-8. He's not good enough to knock off spacies, and I think Shiek + Marth in the end are better. I dislike aspects of Ike, strongly dislike a few things about him. I give a reason or say hey guys anyone else think his Fsmash is a bit strong... you reply with "BUT HE CAN'T DO IT IN THE AIR LIKE DK, INVALID COMPARISON" when I'm primarily talking about the overall strength and no there aren't huge differences or "ganon Utilt/Punch trolololo". I don't like that his Uthrow gives him a ton of time for attacks (more time than say Marth Uthrow depending on character), that your DI options vs him feel limited because of how much range he encompasses and how much distance he can cover, that his throws all induce tumble regardless of % (haven't tested vs everyone may not be true but feels like it), there's a lot I don't bring up about Ike or even throw out for discussion because let's face it people talk about Ike a lot already.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Well that's just a gross exaggeration that doesn't even resemble my points in the slightest. Talking in caps just to mock me doesn't really help your case at all.

 

[DMG]

Fine Ike Fsmash isn't comparable to Bowser since Bowser kills earlier, and can't compare it to DK. I'll just state his Fsmash is strong, no comparisons at all, and see where the conversation goes. Opinion guys? Ike Fsmash uses a sword, or is it really a rolling pin?

While we're at it, let's cross off Puff's rest before that gets tossed around, because in all fairness he does not kill as early as that move.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Again, getting upset and tossing out ridiculous points isn't helping get your own point across at all.

Just state up front if you have issues with something. I'm more than glad to discuss things with you if you are willing to remain calm and rational instead of strictly pouty and hysterical.

Personally, I think rest is a fine example if we want to compare something because it is an example of a particularly designed move full of risk and reward. Rest is such a powerful move because it has its notorious endlag, the bane of which being that, coupled with her weight, it is a harshly punished move that can mean death for Jigglypuff if she misses.

 

[DMG]

I would, if the counter points were better than "you can't compare DK punch to Ike Fsmash, not even power wise, because that's how different they are". Or that my point is countered because even though Bowser and Ike have the same knockback value, Bowser's damage edge puts him over and he sends people a bit farther.

(Most of my earlier post was sarcasm, not genuine anger lol.)

Jigglypuff can use rest in the air, during aerial combos, and kills so much sooner than Ike. You want to compare Ike Fsmash to Rest, instead of DK punch or Bowser Fsmash?

 

[Kink-Link5]

We don't need to compare the move to other moves on other characters is what I'm trying to say. It's perfectly fine to look at the move strictly within the context of the character, as hyperception did, and look at how and why it is designed the way it is.

 

[bubbaking]

The Edit Wars! :O

 

[DMG]

When we look at the context of "just the character", you think Ike sucks so it's like what's the point lol. Fsmash slow, technically has a sour spot at his hips, bad move. And if I just said hey his Fsmash is kinda strong, anyone could say Well Ike is meant to be strong, and where does that get us unless you compare it somewhere? In fact the move looks even better in an Ike Vacuum, so to speak, if you think about it.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Jigglypuff can use rest in the air, during aerial combos, and kills so much sooner than Ike. You want to compare Ike Fsmash to Rest, instead of DK punch or Bowser Fsmash?

I think rest can be compared to every move but that has more to do with a general mentality about fighting games than the indevidual comparison of strength between the move and F-smash.

 

[bubbaking]

Rest is a terrible move to compare to Ike's fsmash. Just sayin'.....

 

[Kink-Link5]

And why is that? They are both moves designed with specifications in mind. It isn't like the devs looked at Ike and just went "Huh, let's hmmm, let's make this move super strong for no real reason," any more than Rest's design was arbitrary.

 

[bubbaking]

If you're gonna compare Rest to Ike's fsmash, then why couldn't DMG compare DK's punch or Boozer's fsmash to it?

 

[DMG]

DK punch is too versatile of a move it's a bad comparison. Plus his arms are so hairy he gets invincibility.



*DK, DONKEY KONG*

Aight Im done with all of this. The general point was I think his Fsmash hits a bit hard, if that's a ridiculous complaint I will personally throw it into the archives of "Bad Ike complaints", throw away the key, and talk about how Janky Wario is instead.

 

[bubbaking]

*mind blown*

Wario is very janky.......and he's worse than Charizard.

 

[Kink-Link5]

If you're gonna compare Rest to Ike's fsmash, then why couldn't DMG compare DK's punch or Boozer's fsmash to it?

I let him compare them while I contrasted them. If you strictly compare things it doesn't really give you an accurate reference for how they relate to each other since relation is dependent on both the comparison and the contrast.

DMG is essentially asking why Ike's F-smash is designed like it is, comparing nothing but the strength of the move while contrasting only the animation of the move, to DK's standard B and Bowser's F-smash.

DMG, are you not asking why Ike's F-smash is designed like it is? That's where this discussion is rooted, correct?


Hey, you can't just be done with a discussion because you don't want to discuss it seriously.

 

[bubbaking]

I think a person can be done with anything whenever he wants.....

 

[DMG]

That's not entirely accurate though. The start up lag and the general range I AM fine with. The move would be fantastic I think, if the knockback was just tweaked down a bit. That's literally all I want to do to the move. Maybe give it a cleaner sour spot (again tied to knockback). That's it. No "range too good", no "damage too good", etc. Thats why I bring up that specific part of the move, and wanted to compare it to other moves specifically in the power range to better explain or compare to people why I feel that way. I'd love to take it seriously, I think your counter points were poor to be honest and that's why you see me picking on you for DK punch lol.

WARIO IS SO JANKY HE EATS CAPTAIN CRUNCH FOR BREAKFAST... RAW!

 

[bubbaking]

Your mistake, DMG, was in bringing up a serious issue on this thread. Both camps are staking it out here, so you're bound to get shot down as soon as you make yourself heard.

Edit: That's what happened to Kage.

 

[Kink-Link5]

That's a little defeatist, bubbalouie. I'm perfectly fine with discussing the move in both design and context of the character, and its a little saddening to see someone drop out just as a discussion is getting deeper.

That's all there is to it; I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything here, DMG. We're a couple of friendly smashers in different parts of the world and a bubba having a discussion about the design of a character's move. No need to get distraught over it or stressed or let it bother you.

Personally, I don't feel the move has too much knockback, but it again is a matter of context as well as one dependent on many variables, as nearly everything Smashing is.

 

[DMG]

Your mistake, DMG, was in bringing up a serious issue on this thread. Both camps are staking it out here, so you're bound to get shot down as soon as you make yourself heard.

Edit: That's what happened to Kage.

You can't be done with talking about how Janky Wario is! Just because you don't want to take it seriously doesn't mean you can drop it like that.

I wanna start the Janky Wario trend, like:

Wario is so Janky, he eats Ring Pops plastic and all.

(Im not angry or stressed LOL I'm more poking fun at you than upset that my internet argument did not prevail)

 

[Kink-Link5]

I feel as though you are just intentionally picking on me now, DMG.

Why you would do that, ahdunnuh; issues dealing with expression of passion I guess?

 

[DMG]

Yes, yes I was. And now I'm done.

(Im doing it because it's fun and because Wario is so janky he couldn't jump the shark if he was given a jetpack)

 

[bubbaking]

But Wario's jankiness is a serious issue! We can't talk about it. We shouldn't.... Besides, Wario's got nuthin' on Mr. Gdubs.