Project M Social Thread

[DMG]

Grab Bowser, throw him into the air

 

[stingers]

yeah, bowser just has the same weaknesses while his strengths were made slightly beefier. I don't see how that'll help in the long run...

 

[UltiMario]

yeah, bowser just has the same weaknesses while his strengths were made slightly beefier. I don't see how that'll help in the long run...

But the question is what was really holding Bowser back, his weaknesses or lack of good strengths?

Only time will tell.

 

[FireBall Stars]

The game is very different.

You can't train melee and expect to be able to do well against everything the new game has.

Melee has examples of tactics that are far more problematic than lucario and some brawl characters in PM.
But we are used to them, trained the game with them in mind and are ready to see them happen.

If you don't train PM, and only melee, while you will be familiar with the universal mechanics and know how to play, you won't be used to what will happen in the matches with new characters, you won't know how to get around the new things and all of them will be foreign and strange to you, since there are no precedents in Melee.

Once you get used to them, it isn't as hard to deal with the limitations and the openings the new character's style gives to you.

It's just a matter of being used to.

If anything is stupid it will be fixed somehow in the future. While you can surely say that won't play this version anymore, the future versions will give you reasons to try again, each of them.

 

[bubbaking]

Tbh, I find a lot of chars to have really silly or ridiculous things in P:M:

• Spacees are NTSC spacees which I don't like, but whatever.
• Ganon gets CGs on WAAAAY too many people and they often take one from 0 to death easily and set up for all his kill moves.
• Link has CGs now, his grapple grabbing limbs makes it really good, and his new sword attacks are, IMO, better than Marth's now (same range, comparable startup, faster cooldown).
• Sheik gets two kinds of CG's if she predicts your DI correctly and she still has auto-combos. Of course, she also has the ability to transform safely into another great character, Zelda.
• Zelda has a LOT of nonsense. Her usmash combos into itself and then other stuff at low %'s on more than half the cast for an easy 40+% damage. Her reflector is obnoxious with its invincibility and its land-cancelling. Her smashes are waaay too safe, they poke shields, and they pack quite a punch, too. Her attacking limb is invincible for the entire hitbox duration of dsmash and utilt (does she really need 21 frames of arm invincibility?). She also has FF'er CG's and bthrow as a kill-throw. Of course, her Din's mines are incredible space-controlling projectiles and she always has the option to transform completely safely into the excellent character that is Sheik.
• Bowser gets really stupid edgeguards, especially on vertical recoverers.
• Mario's recovery is really versatile and far-reaching now.
• Lucario's OHC system is godly and so is his recovery.
• Sonic gets to recover for free.
• Ike is Ike and that's silly!

Edit: To avoid giving the wrong idea, I still think P:M's an awesome game and a true sequel (not a replicate) to Melee.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Whenever issue comes up about Lucario's canceling mechanic or Ike's jump canceled movement special, or anything else new to PM compared to Melee/Brawl, I can't help but compare the mechanics to Peach's float, or Jigglypuff's multiple small jumps, or lasers land canceling. All of them are quite unique mechanics that no or very very few other characters can attest to having a comparable mechanic.

Not every character is completely straight forward like Mario or Marth or Ganondorf, and all these different mechanics all still fit in the realm of the game because what makes something "smashing" is not easily defined. The gameplay of the series thrives on it's variable, analog inputs compared to the digital inputs of, well pretty much every other fighter. It is that variety and highly analog nature that allows the game to have such a diverse cast of characters with different moves and different mechanics.

 

[Archangel]

Whenever issue comes up about Lucario's canceling mechanicor Ike's jump canceled movement special, or anything else new to PM compared to Melee/Brawl, I can't help but compare the mechanics to Peach's float, or Jigglypuff's multiple small jumps, or lasers land canceling. All of them are quite unique mechanics that no or very very few other characters can attest to having a comparable mechanic.

Not every character is completely straight forward like Mario or Marth or Ganondorf, and all these different mechanics all still fit in the realm of the game because what makes something "smashing" is not easily defined. The gameplay of the series thrives on it's variable, analog inputs compared to the digital inputs of, well pretty much every other fighter. It is that variety and highly analog nature that allows the game to have such a diverse cast of characters with different moves and different mechanics.

a good post....Whoa...

 

[bubbaking]

Ike's JC-able sideB isn't really a problem. It's his weird cooldown mechanic that's kind of dumb, especially when you couple it with TWO frame 3 jabs.

Edit: To clarify, frame 3 jabs aren't really that broken (I think some chars have frame 2 jabs, but I'm not sure), but no such jab has as much KB (and shield stun) as Ike's two frame 3 jabs.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Or Ike's sword shield stun mechanics, that's another thing like Peach's float cancels. Thank you, bubbalouie.

 

[bubbaking]

http://www.mariowiki.com/Kinklink
"Kinklinks are a variety of Chomps that are used to hold up chandeliers in Bowser's Keep." Is this why you constantly feel the need to 'bite' at me? Where did this whole Bubbalouie things start?

 

[Kink-Link5]

It just seems more friendly calling you a louie instead of a king, of bubbas.

Plus I watched too much quickdraw mcgraw when I was little.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Did someone say quickdraw?
IKE

 

[bubbaking]

It just seems more friendly calling you a louie instead of a king, of bubbas.

Plus I watched too much quickdraw mcgraw when I was little.

But......that just makes me King Louie..............of bubbas.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I just want to see how you manage to bubbak someone.

I don't even know what bubbaking entitles. Like how do you even conjugate "to bubbak"?



I think we need to define bubbaking as the act of using Charizard's bair instead of nair.

 

[Magus420]

Ike's JC-able sideB isn't really a problem. It's his weird cooldown mechanic that's kind of dumb, especially when you couple it with TWO frame 3 jabs.

Edit: To clarify, frame 3 jabs aren't really that broken (I think some chars have frame 2 jabs, but I'm not sure), but no such jab has as much KB (and shield stun) as Ike's two frame 3 jabs.

Jab-1 hits 3 or faster with 3+ shieldstun (HitFrame/Damage): Doc(2/4), Falco(2/4), Fox(2/4), Sheik(2/4), Luigi(2/3), Mario(2/3), Peach(2/3), Ganon(3/7-8), Ike(3/4), Snake(3/4), Ness(3/3), ROB(3/3), Samus(3/3), Sonic(3/3), and Yoshi(3/3).

Also has Jab-2 that hits 3 or faster with 3+ shieldstun (HitFrame/Damage): Falco(2/4), Fox(2/4), Doc(2/3), Sonic(2/3), Yoshi(3/5), Ike(3/3), ROB(3/3), Sheik(3/3)

Bowser's f-smash is stronger than Ike's by a decent amount btw. They have the same KBG/BKB but Bowser's does more damage which affects the KBG directly as well as adding more total damage into the KB. Testing those moves with no DI doesn't say much since they have nearly a full second to do so.

 

[ph00tbag]

Ike is the next best example frankly. A lot of changes make sense, but there are plenty of his that don't. I think he should have been changed a bit more conservatively because he's going from big slow brawl to fast pace Melee, with some of the same power. Some things don't seem to mesh, like bigger bulkier characters you tend to see more of an emphasis on spacing since their mobility isn't that great. But then he's given Side B options out the bunghole and there's not really an easy way to at least "identify" what option or how far he's going to go. He can even use it for combos and recovering. Fsmash being more powerful than DK punch or non sweetspot Bowser Fsmash is unacceptable. The shield hitlag modifier Ike has, to purposefully make him safer on shields, again shifts the balance from "bigger slower character needing to space" into JUST FAIR BRO YOU GOT THIS!" Basically, Ike's given a larger margin for error than a lot of characters, without a ton of downside.

Ike's actually kind of a terrible example. You have a point with the safety on shield, but only because spacing the moves well should be enough to make them safe. Otherwise, most of your complaints are balance issues. They don't particularly break any rules.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Don't mind DMG, ph00t; he seems to have a mindset that Ike's design and aspects are exclusive to Ike and made just to make Ike stupid, rather then consequences of polarising design in general.

 

[stingers]

the way I see it, bowser loses to quick chars and chars with range. that wont change because none of his moveset was really changed. marth vs bowser will be 9-1 marth til the end of time. etc. buffing his strengths doesnt really effect what makes his MUs

 

[Xinc]

the way I see it, bowser loses to quick chars and chars with range. that wont change because none of his moveset was really changed. marth vs bowser will be 9-1 marth til the end of time. etc. buffing his strengths doesnt really effect what makes his MUs

I'll agree to this, to an extent. His strengths, buffed to a reasonable amount, won't amount that much if Marth can exploit Bowser's weaknesses.

EDIT: Just managed to play P:M v2.1 with a competent opponent. Great job!

EDIT2: Other textures would make the characters too large, or would they fit? (Ex. The brawlvault)

 

[Revven]

the way I see it, bowser loses to quick chars and chars with range. that wont change because none of his moveset was really changed. marth vs bowser will be 9-1 marth til the end of time. etc. buffing his strengths doesnt really effect what makes his MUs

You remove his weaknesses, you have a boring character.

 

[Kink-Link5]

You remove his weaknesses, you have a boring character.

Fox and Falco don't seem to mind.

 

[UltiMario]

Being light, combo bait, and one dying at 0% aren't weaknesses?

 

[DrinkingFood]

We like to pretend that they don't have weaknesses because their strengths cover them up so well.
But we also like to forget that that's kinda the goal with the other characters also.
Some are just going to have stronger strengths and more serious weaknesses, so weaknesses and strengths will be more easily separated.

 

[DrinkingFood]

****ing ****ty internet at my dorm makes me double post...

 

[Kink-Link5]

No more than "low health" is a weakness for Nu or a bad u-tilt is for Ganondorf. Weaknesses are fundamental to a character's moveset ; bad priority on moves, slow start up, high cool down, lack of safe options, those are weaknesses. Giving Bowser range to compensate his slowness would not make a boring character anymore than giving Luigi a decent recovery does.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Comparing spacies easy comboability to ganon's utilt in terms of weaknesses... dude what.
Also you basically just said "everything that's a weakness except the spacies weaknesses are weaknesses."

Granted, Bowser may or may not need more range to compensate for his slowness. But pretending the spacies weaknesses aren't serious nor exploitable is unrealistic. Nobody is a computer, and there is no such thing as competitive TAS.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Space furry weaknesses are the same weaknesses everyone else has. Getting hit is bad no matter who you're using.

If things like getting comboed are weaknesses, then Bowser has like, 3 weaknesses and one strength.

Big hurtbox
Susceptible to combos
Easily gimped

Kills early.

None of them are fundamental strengths or weaknesses, they're attributes that are attached to a character's actual strengths and weaknesses- the speed and range of their moves, their ability to move around or make the opponent have to move around for you, etc. etc.


For a related point, having a projectile is a strength. Not having a projectile is not a weakness.

 

[cmart]

How did we NOT buff Bowser's range? Look at Bowser's fair and come back to me lol

 

[Kink-Link5]

How did we NOT buff Bowser's range? Look at Bowser's fair and come back to me lol

Exactly. When you give a character buffs to get rid of core weaknesses on moves, it doesn't make the character boring; it just makes them, you know, acceptable.

I'm not really sure where stingers is coming from that Bowser has range issues anymore.

 

[leelue]

Bubba, I don't have a huge problem edgeguarding sonic, at least not much more than any other character.
Run away from homing attack range, get back to edgeguard. Easypeasy.
Pit is way harder to edgeguard for many characters. And puff.
Nothing special about sonic there.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Speaking of Sonic, how does triangle jumping handle standard B? Or does just, no one do it?

 

[leelue]

Empty short hops ruin it, if you know what you're doing.
I do it against sonic and it just makes him look foolish.

 

[Soft Serve]

triangle jumping?

 

[stingers]

i never said he had range issues explicitly, though I guess I did imply it by saying his weaknesses were left intact. his range is fine now, for sure. but I moreso meant his lack of approach options and his inability to deal with disjoints. they will cripple him in competitive play since a lot of this game is based on having solid approach and ways to deal with disjoints (most chars can simply abuse dash dancing as a standard game mechanic to help fight disjoints, but bowsers dash dance...yeah lol). his lack of a real dash dance makes it necessary to have some other mechanic to fill the void, but hes got nothing.

I suppose the crawl armor was meant to help deal with that, but it really only works against projectiles, since most (all? lol prolly not but its hard to think of any offhand) disjointed attacks will break through.

 

[Kink-Link5]

triangle jumping?

Late wavedash in order to take advantage of the invincibility frames of an air dodge.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Wavedash#Triangle_jumping

 

[Soft Serve]

I didn't know there was a term for that.


But this is the smash community, we do name everything.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The term exists for any game with a mechanic that lets you move diagonally downward in the air.

Magneto and Storm do it in Marvel, everyone does it in Hisoutensoku, everyone does it in Arcana Heart, divekicks do it in any game they're in.

DAIBU KYAKU

 

[PGH Carroll]

I do it IRL in Ike dittos

 

[Kink-Link5]

Let's try to stay on-topic, or at least close to it.

Like, make a part of your post on-topic at the least.

For example, is there any thoughts on altering how many jumps multijump characters get? I think Pit and Dedede both have 4 right now, Jigglypuff has 6, and Charizard has 3, all of which are, to my knowledge the same as in vBrawl.

 

[leelue]

I feel bad for charizard.
It always threw me that he and pit had different numbers. Just, internally it didn't match with my preconceptions.
It still interests me that charizard has such massively worse glide mechanics.