Project M Social Thread

[Divinokage]

So ya I played today and the more I play, the more I hate the game.. I don't think I'm going to continue with this. Too many things that does not resemble a smash game.

 

[Hylian]

I mean..if you don't have fun with it don't play lol. Saying it doesn't resemble a smash game is strange though.

 

[Divinokage]

Well I realized how ridiculous Lucario is for example, I don't feel like I'm playing melee when I fight the new characters from Brawl. They have mechanics which don't follow the standard of a Melee game.

Fsmash combo into Fsmash and another while using the dodge across the stage, you wanna tell me something like that is ok?

 

[stingers]

I played the game for awhile today, first time Ive gotten to sit down and play it for awhile.
Pit needs a nerf on his arrow moveability, with how large the amount of control you have over it is it can be used for camping really gayly.

 

[Hylian]

Well I realized how ridiculous Lucario is for example, I don't feel like I'm playing melee when I fight the new characters from Brawl. They have mechanics which don't follow the standard of a Melee game.

Fsmash combo into Fsmash and another while using the dodge across the stage, you wanna tell me something like that is ok?

I don't understand your logic in the slightest because you aren't being very concise. You aren't playing melee, you are playing P:M. The match-ups in melee have been developed for over 10 years of course any new match-up will feel incredibly different especially considering it's a different game.

Not sure what you mean about the "standard" of melee.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I have a friend who felt the same as kage and he explained his reasons why and who he felt didnt fit in the game. I wish i could remember his reasoning but i do remember some of the characters he named. lets see he named zelda, ike, lucario, mario, sonic. i feel there were more but i cant remember who for sure

 

[kaizo13]

I feel like you should put those feelings aside for now Kage until the project has matured a bit more. try to enjoy the game for now. I see where you're coming from, but i think that after 11 years a little innovation couldn't hurt.

sure it's different, but broken? as of now...I personally don't think so.


EDIT: Even tho I agree with what you're saying, part of me wants to wait and see where this is going..

 

[Divinokage]

I don't understand your logic in the slightest because you aren't being very concise. You aren't playing melee, you are playing P:M. The match-ups in melee have been developed for over 10 years of course any new match-up will feel incredibly different especially considering it's a different game.

Not sure what you mean about the "standard" of melee.

It's not about match-ups, it's about the design of the characters. It doesn't fit the standard rules of what Melee should be.

Ok look I was playing Vwins Lucario a bunch today and also watching what he was doing, I found it pretty absurd. Hit confirming on shield for example is not something anyone could do before and there really is no escape if you get caught in that, we tested everything. He can also instant kill you off-stage with a decent combo that ends with a grab and there's nothing you can do about it for recovering.. he's also all over the place and can easily chain attacks without you being able to do much about it.. those types of things feel out of place. Sure it's a cool design, but it's not something melee should have, it's inconsistent with the rest of the characters. If you play melee on other hand, all the characters follow a set of rules and it's the same for Brawl too.

 

[GHNeko]

And **** talking the MW is like a grown man trying to pick a fight with a 5th grader. It's just not right.

....

you guys are NO FUN.

my god lol

no wonder it's always been EC vs WC.

 

[bubbaking]

I played the game for awhile today, first time Ive gotten to sit down and play it for awhile.
Pit needs a nerf on his arrow moveability, with how large the amount of control you have over it is it can be used for camping really gayly.

Wow, now we've got people calling for nerfs on Pit? I've played quite a few matches against GuruKid's Pit and I've never had a problem with his camping. His arrows aren't even that safe at mid- to close-range. They're not Falco lasers, at least, where can just spam them JUST outside of your CQC range and still be perfectly fine.

I have a friend who felt the same as kage and he explained his reasons why and who he felt didnt fit in the game. I wish i could remember his reasoning but i do remember some of the characters he named. lets see he named zelda, ike, lucario, mario, sonic. i feel there were more but i cant remember who for sure

I also have a friend with very similar logic. However , he applied his to Ike, Lucario, Sonic, and Lucas. He also said he hated how easy recoveries are in general this time around. Hey, I'm not complaining. I love P:M!

 

[GHNeko]

It's like people expect newcomers to have easily edgeguarded recoveries like most of the mid-top tiers in melee.

 

[Omni]

Heaven forbid the new cast get unusual qualities in their movesets

Meanwhile, Melee Fox/Falco/Bowser retain 1-frame invincibility moves that encompass their entire body.

 

[Life]

Because everyone knows that Melee was the perfect game and anything that makes anything different from Melee is a negative.

 

[GaretHax]

He does have a point though, I personally love PM to death it has replaced melee entirely for me, but alot of the newcomers do rely entirely on new mechanics or strategies that are unrelated to anything in melee and are completely unique to PM. Really using melee characters as a base most of the newcomers have moves, techniques, or strategies that just didn't exist in melee. Though Im not sure if they don't completely follow the formula, its hard to argue that they fully abide by the rules of engagement that compose melee matches. I don't see it as a huge problem, and I really think the creativity of the PMBR's design is outstanding, but it's also valid to say alot of the newcomers "don't follow the rules".

 

[GHNeko]

What rules?

There seems to be some unspoken standard when it comes to melee's design that I seem to be missing lol.

 

[Apasher]

So, since CPU's in 2.1 have upgraded AI, would playing lvl 9's be an effective way to practice now?

 

[GaretHax]

@ Ghneko,
By rules I just mean the basic formula all characters had to follow in order to compete.
You have to approach, usually with shffld arials,
shields aren't completely safe so if you pressure you are at risk of getting caught out of position,
spacing was dependant primarily, if not entirely on grounded movement for all besides mewtwo. THIS is where pm really expands things. Imo its a good thing as i love the movement in this game, but it is frustrating that so many characters have moves or options that can almost nullify spacing.(pit, Ike, rob, Zelda, lucario, wario)
I guess really they offend on multiple levels when you consider some of their projectile options too.
Anyway you asked for some examples and I gave them, I really don't feel like going on a massive theory rant however lol.

@poster above me, its fun to abuse the level 9's but you won't really be able to practice spacing or anything against them and they don't di so combos won't carry over to people. But its a nice break from training mode when there's nobody around.

 

[GHNeko]

So, since CPU's in 2.1 have upgraded AI, would playing lvl 9's be an effective way to practice now?

not really no. They're improved, so they're a better way to practice, but not effective because they still read button inputs and iirc they don't have human-like patterns coded to help prepare you to play humans.

 

[bubbaking]

It's not about match-ups, it's about the design of the characters. It doesn't fit the standard rules of what Melee should be.

Ok look I was playing Vwins Lucario a bunch today and also watching what he was doing, I found it pretty absurd. Hit confirming on shield for example is not something anyone could do before and there really is no escape if you get caught in that, we tested everything. He can also instant kill you off-stage with a decent combo that ends with a grab and there's nothing you can do about it for recovering.. he's also all over the place and can easily chain attacks without you being able to do much about it.. those types of things feel out of place. Sure it's a cool design, but it's not something melee should have, it's inconsistent with the rest of the characters. If you play melee on other hand, all the characters follow a set of rules and it's the same for Brawl too.

Ike can "hit-confirm" on shield too, thanks to that weird cooldown mechanic he has. Having two frame 3 jabs doesn't help things either...

 

[cannedbread]

PK Fire on Din's Fire late night XXX hardcore team deathmatch.

oh gosh why did i laugh

EDIT:

spacing was dependant primarily, if not entirely on grounded movement for all besides mewtwo. THIS is where pm really expands things. Imo its a good thing as i love the movement in this game, but it is frustrating that so many characters have moves or options that can almost nullify spacing.(pit, Ike, rob, Zelda, lucario, wario)
I guess really they offend on multiple levels when you consider some of their projectile options too.

that's a weird way of thinking. why would a couple of nifty movement options invalidate spacing?

 

[ph00tbag]

It's not about match-ups, it's about the design of the characters. It doesn't fit the standard rules of what Melee should be.

Well, I agree on Lucario. His design is just so foreign, I'm worried that a large portion of the cast literally won't have the options to handle his mix-ups.

But if there are other characters that you actually feel don't resemble smash characters, then I can really only tell you what I tell everyone else who says this: you have an incredibly narrow view of what constitutes a smash game. In fact, very few of the mechanics that P:M brings to the table are new to smash; those that aren't in Melee are in Brawl, and just because Brawl is bad doesn't mean it's not smash, and it doesn't mean certain mechanics aren't interesting, or worth exploring.

 

[GaretHax]

that's a weird way of thinking. why would a couple of nifty movement options invalidate spacing?

they don't invalidate it, however my definition was always "stay out of the range of any character's furthest reaching option at any time." giving a character an action that actively covers ground(often times both a greater distance, and much faster than they are normally capable of) kind of throws a wrench in the process. And short of Samus' superwavedash and lulzy spacie tricks is an entirely new mechanic.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, I posted this earlier, but I think I'll re-post it for anyone who may have missed it:

This post is for anyone who lives on Long Island and could be extended to anyone who lives in NY, I guess. At Stony Brook University, we have a Super Smash Bros group, which I'm a founder and moderator of, that plays Melee, vBrawl, and P:M regularly. This group has had a Power Rankings for Melee for quite a few years now and added one for vBrawl last year. This semester, for the first time ever, I've opened up a Power Rankings for P:M as well. Basically, what this means is that we will be having a LOT of P:M activity at SBU from now on. We've been playing the mod since day 1 of its release, but now we are starting to play with competitive tournament-like rules and sets. If you're interested, check out this site:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/322235817871532/
Even if you don't wanna join the ladder, you can drop on by for some games and additional P:M (or other Smash games) experience. I'm trying to make P:M really popular on the Island, so I really want this news to get out there. Spread the word!

Edit: We also have recording equipment (Dazzle), so we may be able to get matches recorded and stuff.

 

[GHNeko]

You best post videos brah

 

[Divinokage]

Heaven forbid the new cast get unusual qualities in their movesets

Meanwhile, Melee Fox/Falco/Bowser retain 1-frame invincibility moves that encompass their entire body.

Because everyone knows that Melee was the perfect game and anything that makes anything different from Melee is a negative.

I expected ignorant answers such as this.

 

[`dazrin]

Kage, I think it would be highly beneficial to record and post matches between you and Vwins so that we can see what you are talking about for ourselves. It'd be very interesting to watch, and would be more helpful as opposed to complaint posts.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya but we never record so that won't happen.. but playing him makes me feel like I don't want to play anymore, it's ridiculous. Even if you try to adapt to a completely different playstyle, you are still going to get destroyed, it's not even funny.

 

[GHNeko]

I'd be a lot easier to see what the true issue is and how to go about fixing it if we could get some sort of video evidence.

What you can try to do is play the version of P:M that allows replays, save a replay, and send it to someone who can record for you, and then they'll upload and post a video for everyone (including PMBR) to watch and analyze.

 

[DMG]

I played the game for awhile today, first time Ive gotten to sit down and play it for awhile.
Pit needs a nerf on his arrow moveability, with how large the amount of control you have over it is it can be used for camping really gayly.

I would have agreed, IF Pit had a good MU spread. Those arrows don't mean much when you fly around his face with Falcon, or pick Marth and swat at him like he's a gnat. Friend of mine plays Pit and he had some experience with him in Brawl, and while arrows are annoying for say Ganondorf, you pick someone quicker and it's a non issue. They are annoying for edgeguarding though.

I have a friend who felt the same as kage and he explained his reasons why and who he felt didnt fit in the game. I wish i could remember his reasoning but i do remember some of the characters he named. lets see he named zelda, ike, lucario, mario, sonic. i feel there were more but i cant remember who for sure

Only character out of that group that doesn't make sense is Mario, because Mario is not heavily changed as far as new mobility option or new mechanic. He's Mario and Doc meshed together, with a few buffs, that don't make him feel "out of line" with Melee.

It's not about match-ups, it's about the design of the characters. It doesn't fit the standard rules of what Melee should be.

Ok look I was playing Vwins Lucario a bunch today and also watching what he was doing, I found it pretty absurd. Hit confirming on shield for example is not something anyone could do before and there really is no escape if you get caught in that, we tested everything. He can also instant kill you off-stage with a decent combo that ends with a grab and there's nothing you can do about it for recovering.. he's also all over the place and can easily chain attacks without you being able to do much about it.. those types of things feel out of place. Sure it's a cool design, but it's not something melee should have, it's inconsistent with the rest of the characters. If you play melee on other hand, all the characters follow a set of rules and it's the same for Brawl too.

For the combos ending with the spike, part of that is meteor cancelling being off/delayed from what it should be. That would probably help a ton for dealing with that specific issue. The other is that Ganon might just outright lose to Lucario regardless. I've done the MU a few times and it tends to only go well when I get a grab, or if they get predictable on getting in like rolling or always trying dash attack or down b etc. Strictly spacing vs Lucario with Fair Jab etc feels a bit harder than usual.

Well, I agree on Lucario. His design is just so foreign, I'm worried that a large portion of the cast literally won't have the options to handle his mix-ups.

But if there are other characters that you actually feel don't resemble smash characters, then I can really only tell you what I tell everyone else who says this: you have an incredibly narrow view of what constitutes a smash game. In fact, very few of the mechanics that P:M brings to the table are new to smash; those that aren't in Melee are in Brawl, and just because Brawl is bad doesn't mean it's not smash, and it doesn't mean certain mechanics aren't interesting, or worth exploring.

Ike is the next best example frankly. A lot of changes make sense, but there are plenty of his that don't. I think he should have been changed a bit more conservatively because he's going from big slow brawl to fast pace Melee, with some of the same power. Some things don't seem to mesh, like bigger bulkier characters you tend to see more of an emphasis on spacing since their mobility isn't that great. But then he's given Side B options out the bunghole and there's not really an easy way to at least "identify" what option or how far he's going to go. He can even use it for combos and recovering. Fsmash being more powerful than DK punch or non sweetspot Bowser Fsmash is unacceptable. The shield hitlag modifier Ike has, to purposefully make him safer on shields, again shifts the balance from "bigger slower character needing to space" into JUST FAIR BRO YOU GOT THIS!" Basically, Ike's given a larger margin for error than a lot of characters, without a ton of downside.

 

[ELI-mination]

No johns.

..

 

[iLink]

I just want to reiterate that lucario cannot hitconfirm on shield unless he uses a attack that is already slower then his grab anyway. Everything else can be avoided with a roll or spot dodge.

just about any combo into an air sideb can be avoided with DI.

 

[UltiMario]

I'm going to agree with Kage on this. For example, it's always irked me that characters like Sonic, ROB, Snake, and to an extent Lucario and Pit get such amazing options while recovering. For the feel of the game, it'd be much better to have the first three simply have very fast recoveries with hitboxes on the recovery itself. It really would contribute to t he feeling of Melee. I can sort of excuse Lucario and Pit because their main gimmicks give them their access to recovery, which isn't a terribly bad thing. G&W also gets notice for having the same options, but his recovery is still **** even with them. And that's just recoveries that already covers that many characters, let alone play styles.

I usually ignore these things just because I like the game, but I agree that they don't feel Melee like in the least. I certainly wouldn't mind having these characters get Melee-fied recoveries.

 

[iLink]

Also wolf has true grab on shields with waveland lasers.

Just sayin.

 

[stingers]

with platforms pit can remain like 100% safe with the new arrows. its really good...I dont think u understand. ill see if I can get a replay of me doing it.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

@dmg: iirc he was saying it was only mario's recovery which didnt fit b/c of the cape being ridiculous and him being able to wall jump out of up b every time

 

[kaizo13]

I'm going to agree with Kage on this. For example, it's always irked me that characters like Sonic, ROB, Snake, and to an extent Lucario and Pit get such amazing options while recovering. For the feel of the game, it'd be much better to have the first three simply have very fast recoveries with hitboxes on the recovery itself. It really would contribute to t he feeling of Melee. I can sort of excuse Lucario and Pit because their main gimmicks give them their access to recovery, which isn't a terribly bad thing. G&W also gets notice for having the same options, but his recovery is still **** even with them. And that's just recoveries that already covers that many characters, let alone play styles.

I usually ignore these things just because I like the game, but I agree that they don't feel Melee like in the least. I certainly wouldn't mind having these characters get Melee-fied recoveries.

Exactly how I feel....2 years ago I probably would have dismissed any of these non-melee-esque ideas/mechanics, but after 2 years of questioning and getting the same "this is P:M not Melee" reply....i guess I gave in a little.

I feel if the pmbr keeps heading in the direction they are going, P:M would still evidently be an amazing game, but messing with so many core elements of Melee...can it really have the same long lasting affection of that of Melee???

all in all, Kage shares good points which i admittedly have succumbed to over time

 

[ELI-mination]

Exactly how I feel....2 years ago I probably would have dismissed any of these non-melee-esque ideas/mechanics, but after 2 years of questioning and getting the same "this is P:M not Melee" reply....i guess I gave in a little.

I feel if the pmbr keeps heading in the direction they are going, P:M would still evidently be an amazing game, but messing with so many core elements of Melee...can it really have the same long lasting affection of that of Melee???

all in all, Kage shares good points which i admittedly have succumbed to over time

Why wouldn't it?

 

[iLink]

I dont think many characters trail off the path of what makes up a smash character except for lucario. Even then, he basically does what a smash character does but in a different way. Everyone is just so mindblown about how he does things differently that they dont go back to the basics on how to deal with him.

It really bothers me that people's first instinct is to complain instead of figure out a solution. I shouldnt be the one to have to tell people how to beat my character. I highly doubt anyone has come across anything crazy enough that isnt avoidable and needs changes already.

 

[drsusredfish]

So ya I played today and the more I play, the more I hate the game.. I don't think I'm going to continue with this. Too many things that does not resemble a smash game.

Well I realized how ridiculous Lucario is for example, I don't feel like I'm playing melee when I fight the new characters from Brawl. They have mechanics which don't follow the standard of a Melee game.

Fsmash combo into Fsmash and another while using the dodge across the stage, you wanna tell me something like that is ok?

Granted i am no veteran player like you but these are just some things that i have observed and played.

I actually get the feeling P:M is more melee than melee. If by melee you mean technical and fast. P:M takes alot of the crazy advanced techs in melee like illusion ledge canceling and super wavedash and incorportates them into a standard moveset like zelda's teleport and or ike side b. They are perfomed differntly but they function in the same way, and happen more easily and often. P:M takes some of melees advanced techs and makes them common place. now people need new techniques to beat what has become common.

P:M has also introduced characters with more extreme characteristics to the mix. if chracters had level bars for each of their attributs ike would have like a 10 in power, 8 in range and speed, 7 mobility , 7 sheild pressure game, 3 in pressure escape, 4 evaision, 8 able to be comboed, gimp game 5, etc. now with these extremes ike is a truck but blow out his wheels he'll crash. The problem with extremes is once you exploit that extreme the character is neutrilized. This is how it is in melee too. Some characters just dont have the skills or extremes to "easily " deal with other extreams. Also on these "extremes bars" balance is key. where one bar goes up another should go down. Ike isn't OP but he needs more balance. when it comes to combos Ike is like a smash 64 character with a sword .

As far as smash mechanic go there are many smash mechanics in this game so I'd recomend not geting too attached to just the melee mechanics. Brawl brought in the on hit mechanics with snake and falcos dash attacks. Even melee had some on hit mechanics peach, marth, roy counters, link, young link dair. Those are minor on hits but still on hit. now in P:M theres a character that takes that on hit attribute to the extreme, lucario.

Fsmash to fsmash isn't as crazy as it looks and sounds. fox falco upsmash to upsmash is on the same plain. or even zelda upsmash to up smash all these these only work at certain percents and certain characters. as stated earlier lucario has extremes and his extremes are punishable. its just some characters don't neutralize him as well. the universal thing that does hurt lucario is characters rolling or spot dodging. Alot of people demonize the tactic but it turns out thats a decent way to exploit his extremes.

Lucarios on hit things, to me, aren't too different from other combo heavy characters sheik, fox, falco other melee tops. if a combo heavy character hits the opponents and cancels appropriatley they wreck them in much the same way lucario does if they miss however they can reset themself and get away. The main diffence with lucario is lucario he has more ways to do his combos but he has to hit to do it and a miss is harder to reset from.

Ganon, who i assume you are using vs the characters that don't fit the game, gets the short end of the stick when fighting these characters he has less range than ike, he's very ground based vs lucario and slower. given Ike needs a few tweaks these matchups are just not in ganons favor. Who else do you use?

The main point is no completley new things have been added to the game many things were already in smash but they have been taken to extremes.

 

[Hylian]

"Different is bad" is all I'm getting from this.