Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
C-Tier characters winning tournaments is not an opinion.
It's a happening.
It's a happening.
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Project M Social Thread
- Thread starter Project M
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I've won over $6000 playing smash, one of the best at JK2 in the world when I played(won over 50 tournaments), highest league in SC2 when I played(but lol koreans), 3k elo in smite, best in my state in DDR when I played(not really relevant but w/e), among other games.have you ever been good at one? clearly not.
I've also probably been to more smash tournaments than 99.9% of the entire smash community(64/melee/brawl all included) since I've been going to tournaments consistently since 2003.
But really, Ike in C tier? Are we even playing the same game? Plenty of people have already listed all the great tools he has as a character, yet people struggle to point out his flaws practically. I don't think ike needs to be nerfed and I don't think he's the best character but he's certainly top 10 imo. He has great range, combos, recovery, he's heavy and has good match-ups. Clearly a c tier character.
Not in the slightest.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
It isn't that Ike doesn't have strengths.
It's that there are 28 and a half other characters that all have strengths too, with moves that take less than 16 frames to come out.
It's that there are 28 and a half other characters that all have strengths too, with moves that take less than 16 frames to come out.
Range/movement/endlag are all tools circumvent that weakness and ike certainly has the speed to use those tools effectively.
Edit: Never thought I would be having to point out ikes good points after so many people complaining about him(which I also think is silly).
UltiMario
Out of Obscurity
While I personally don't fully agree on using raw tourney results as examples for tier placement (albeit watching good players do tourney sets helps show how high-level match-ups actually work out, which IS relevant to tiers) one has to admit: Ike does well in tournies. He's probably been the most consistent character as of late out of anyone in the cast. There are other characters that simply don't have anywhere close to the speed, power, and options Ike has to perform the same.
Really, an A-Tier Minimum.
Really, an A-Tier Minimum.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Eugh; I disagree entirely that Ike has speed. Ike travels fast and covers moderate distance after a 9-frame start up, but it's not the same thing as having speed. Like, speed entitles moving quickly in and out to me, not just a single dedicated direction of movement.
Ike has momentum, he can follow up easily and get in if you over dedicate yourself, but otherwise, he has to dedicate himself to a move that, when not canceled with a jump or the attack, leaves him open. He can mix it up, but nothing more threatening than a 1/3 choice, attacking him out of QD covers jumping and letting the move end on its own, Side step covers attacking and jump (Though it does leave the situation neutral with no advantage taken), and projectiles/ a decent dash dance cover the attack or the move ending.
But I mean, you use Link, so you know how much trouble Ike has coming in on a character with decent projectiles.
And in gawking over all of Ike's strengths, it's easy to ignore his weaknesses because he "covers them up," but nothing covers up him not having a combo breaker move, good options under pressure/frame traps, or trouble getting through projectile fields.
Ike is polarizing, but it isn't the same thing as being overly good or even necessarily good.
Ike has momentum, he can follow up easily and get in if you over dedicate yourself, but otherwise, he has to dedicate himself to a move that, when not canceled with a jump or the attack, leaves him open. He can mix it up, but nothing more threatening than a 1/3 choice, attacking him out of QD covers jumping and letting the move end on its own, Side step covers attacking and jump (Though it does leave the situation neutral with no advantage taken), and projectiles/ a decent dash dance cover the attack or the move ending.
But I mean, you use Link, so you know how much trouble Ike has coming in on a character with decent projectiles.
And in gawking over all of Ike's strengths, it's easy to ignore his weaknesses because he "covers them up," but nothing covers up him not having a combo breaker move, good options under pressure/frame traps, or trouble getting through projectile fields.
Ike is polarizing, but it isn't the same thing as being overly good or even necessarily good.
GaretHax
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2009
- Messages
- 464
I played a (imo) really good Pit the other day. And I came to two conclusions;Glad to hear nobody else using pit really. Means the glory will be all mine then.
*watching the recorded stream*
1)Rice is really good (I knew this already)
2)Pit is annoying and can do some really sick/annoying things to Fox.
One of these two things needs to be fixed.
Seriously though I think Pit is a really good character, and though it's annoying that he can start and continue combos with his arrows (not to mention the pleasure of getting gimped while recovering from the damnable things), his grab chains/ tech-chases on half the cast easily trump it... So yeah I think he's pretty damn good lol, but the pit player was better than I am soooo yeah lol. All in all I think he described it the best. "It feels like every character has the Marth-Falcon matchup against Pit, except you don't have to worry about the Falcons combos."
Life
Smash Hero
lol at rubyiris trying to call out hylian
You are analyzing it too much from an on-paper perspective. Ike can choose when to go in he doesn't have to over-commit to anything. You can completely shut down's someone's dashdance game as ike with QD -> anything from moderate distance and spacing fair on someones shield correctly isn't an easy thing for other characters to deal with and makes him hard to bait as well.
Why does he have to commit himself to one thing? He has plenty of approach options and defensive options. For example crossing up someones shield with dair, spacing fair correctly, nair cross-ups, QD bair, mid range baiting etc. His combo game is so strong his hit's REALLY pay off for not having the worst approach in the game.
I'm not ignoring anything. Characters can't just be good at everything, thats the whole point of being strong at certain things, to circumvent the things you aren't so strong at(I.E. being balanced). I'm also not gawking over anything. Just because the character isn't good at everything doesn't mean they can't use the tools they have in a very effective manner that is considered very good in tournament play.
I mean, when fox gets in on Ike he destroys him. People look at a statement like that and think: "Well, characters destroy ike when they get in on him" or something to that effect. That logic is flawed considering fox also destroys shiek/peach/marth/fox/falco etc etc when he gets in on them. Many characters get destroyed when they start getting comboed that's just the nature of this game. That certainly isn't a character specific weakness(where-as being able to break pressure with something like bowser up-b is a certain strength).
I think ike is one of the hardest characters to approach in the game. People talk about him sucking at approaching(which I don't really agree with, but I don't think he's amazing at approaching either just average) but he's not easy to get in on in the slightest. This fact alone gives a reason for him not to have a combo breaking move, or good options under pressure(which is kind of a silly thing to expect most characters to have in a game like this)
Edit: Just so we are perfectly clear, I think Ike is a balanced character. I don't think he's overpowered in the slightest but I certainly don't think he's C tier.
UltiMario
Out of Obscurity
It's more like throwing Marshmallows at a Tank.
cannedbread
Smash Lord
this, this, a thousand time this.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Get raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaped
MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
That was an accident. Sorry about that, lol. Chat is functional again.is pm chat down
its set to +i
EDIT: Well, apparently it isn't. I'll have to wait for someone else to fix it. Sorry everyone
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Alternatively, you are analyzing it too much from a bad experience perspective and have an issue with a character you can't work around.
Sort of like Ike?
UltiMario
Out of Obscurity
You just saw what happened to Ruby, right?
Kink, you like DEFINE free. Your closest friends are Level 9 CPUs. And you tell Hylian he can't work around a character.
Stop while you're behind. Better behind than dead.
Huh? I have no problem with ike. I play link lmao. I don't think ike should be nerfed regardless.
Also, why just reply to my first comment and not my whole post? I'm not giving you a hard time and I like that you actually reply with reasons rather than just blanket statements like you just made.
Life
Smash Hero
*munches popcorn*
cannedbread
Smash Lord
G
genkaku
Guest
http://www.zeldadungeon.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=87&pid=1937#top_display_media
I knew I recognized it.
I knew I recognized it.
`dazrin
Smash Champion
Link. Ike.
MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
Fixed the IRC. Sorry about that
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Wait did they fix the AI? I didn't even know that was an option. I've been sitting here playing my roommate for 5 months.
Life
Smash Hero
Well, it works. It's not fantastic. I've seen a couple AI characters do good until I caught on to them.
leelue
Smash Lord
Kink. Ike is incredible.
JediKnightTemplar
Smash Lord
I'm going to go against the crowd and say that TL is better. Between the fact he's faster, his arrows having a lingering hitbox on the ground which can force spacing on his opponents or set up combos if they happen to hit one, his Up-B is a stronger attack and is easier to combo into, and all his crazy recovery shenanigans I'd have to say that TL edges out his older counterpart. Also please feel free to point out why I'm wrong, because I don't doubt that I am.
9Kplus1
Smash Master
Incredible at what? Ike is heavily outclassed by Gallade.
cannedbread
Smash Lord
if someone touches a grounded fire arrow they don't flinch.
but i agree with you on basically everything else. i think tink is just a bit better.
leelue
Smash Lord
"I see no reason to play Toon link when I can just play link and win instead"
-New York except for the guy who doesn't think DK is good
-New York except for the guy who doesn't think DK is good
I can't really comment on this because I haven't messed around much with TL and I haven't played any good ones, so I have no idea really. I can say Link had a guaranteed up-b on most of the cast off a dthrow at certain %'s for kills, and bair/jab both combo into up-b. Link also has the recovery stuff
. Link seems like he would be better at edgeguarding but idk.
leelue
Smash Lord
He can go out farther and prooooobably hits harder. And can randomly get gimps on top.
Simply having more range is a big deal in many matches (any character I play)
And his grab is insane
Simply having more range is a big deal in many matches (any character I play)
And his grab is insane
I think Link's range puts him ahead of Tink in most matchups. Pretty easy combos, great zoning, and his better nair all are traits that make him better then tink in my mind. Link has a more reliable, although more drawn out, edgeguarding game. Tink has that Up-b that decimates anyone that tries to recover low, but if they can go high all he can really do is boomerang and throw bombs at them.
Although I think Tink, with his better onstage mobility, fares much better than Link against spacies.
Although I think Tink, with his better onstage mobility, fares much better than Link against spacies.
This seems like a good assessment.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
Ike is a pretty good character.
PGH Carroll
Smash Master
Now we're talking
Want to MM at GH2?
Link vs DK.
cannedbread
Smash Lord
leelue you calling me out? i'll freak your stuff up if i get the chance to meet you ever.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
yeah that's fine @ Hylian. how much?
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