Project M Social Thread

[Sarix]

Nope. The PMBR is letting the metagame develop more before releasing any kind of news about demo 3 or a demo 2.2.

Ah I see. Well that's a little depressing since I was looking forward to seeing Samus, but I see their reasoning for the sake of competitive balance.

 

[Shadic]

Except Charizard leaks apparently those are okay.

Alakadoof forbid we give out even a smidgen of information!

 

[DMG]

IT'S ****IN CHARIZARD

Nair AROOORORROROO

 

[PGH Carroll]

trying PM again..

http://www.justin.tv/thesmashlife

 

[F. Blue]

Except Charizard leaks apparently those are okay.

I thought we were talking about Ivysaur.

 

[Onomanic]

Alakadoof forbid we give out even a smidgen of information!

I'm going to make it a life goal to start saying "Alakadoof" instead of "God" from now on.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Two-frame B-Air hitbox was probably an exaggeration, but (also) probably not by much. Despite what the animation looks like, the hitbox disappears really quickly. You can't effectively wall or poke with it as a result, given that you're supposed to weave so much, so his one ranged aerial ends up being kind of bad for anything but finishing a combo with (and it's not even particularly good at -that-).

I haven't played in a while () but I remember this being annoying. Something like you have to fastfall (or was it "don't"?) at a certain point in order to make it hit. I know that it didn't match the animation completely. If Wario is indeed underwhelming enough to warrant buffs in a "demo 2.2" or "3.0", then this move's hitbox should be changed to stay out the whole time that his arm moves.

 

[Yung Mei]

Im streaming project m with friends if anyone would like to watch us play ;w;
http://www.twitch.tv/captmeiling

 

[Kink-Link5]

Urft. Roommate seems to be refusing to play any multiplayer games at the moment due to some strange inclination to stop trying at games when losing a decent amount. Last time I got to play PM was like two weeks ago. So lame waa

 

[iLink]

So after playing against an Ike for the day, I don't think he needs much changes. Went out of my way to see which characters just had the right tools to space well against him.

Only change I would maybe possible consider is not making fair so safe on shield and maybe increase the cooldown on ftilt/dtilt. Didn't have too much trouble actually beating out the upb with a lot of characters.

EDIT: And what I mean by safe on shield, I mean not have so much frame advantage when he hits so close to me. Should be safe if he hits with the outer part.

EDIT2: And sonic is annoying as **** to play against lol

 

[metroid1117]

So after playing against an Ike for the day, I don't think he needs much changes. Went out of my way to see which characters just had the right tools to space well against him.

Only change I would maybe possible consider is not making fair so safe on shield and maybe increase the cooldown on ftilt/dtilt. Didn't have too much trouble actually beating out the upb with a lot of characters.

EDIT: And what I mean by safe on shield, I mean not have so much frame advantage when he hits so close to me. Should be safe if he hits with the outer part.

EDIT2: And sonic is annoying as **** to play against lol

Who'd you play against? Was he/she using reverse BAirs, DAir -> FSmash, QD turnaround -> BAir combos, and QD walljump edgeguards? I'm curious because I believe those are things that will (hopefully) catch on with Ikes soon, they are really valuable tools to optimize his punishes.

 

[Metà]

It doesn't smooth out the game. The game is 100% smooth if you've played your characters for a reasonable amount of time. If anything, it makes the game less smooth by forcing inputs to be acted upon that you weren't expecting because you hit a shield or the opponent.
vbrawl Ike buffering a jab and being shield pushed off the stage, anyone remember that? Of course with a shorter nair he won't have that problem anymore... but other characters will have similar ones.
Granted, 2 frames of buffer is very little. So the change would be very little. But the change isn't even needed in the first place.

your first point, I will concede that is a legitimate disadvantage to having the buffer on. having 1 or 2 frames of buffer will make that happen slightly more often. if you don't like those odds, then don't use buffer, I never said it should be a standard, just an option. again, MAX 2 frames. it's not that big.

melee has such a ridiculously high tech skill ceiling, it's not going to be reached by adding a couple frames, but it will overall increase players' consistency, which I don't think is really inherently a bad thing. you have slightly better tech skill, which means slightly better matches, and fewer elementary mistakes made by missing single frame commands.

having 2 frames won't make you a frame perfect killing machine, being a good player will. it's NOT a slippery slope to brawldom if you cap it at a low amount, and 'because melee' is not really valid at this point, because I think it's already pretty clear that they're not trying to make a game that is exactly like melee, nor can they even do that without making a lot of sacrifices

 

[iLink]

Who'd you play against? Was he/she using reverse BAirs, DAir -> FSmash, QD turnaround -> BAir combos, and QD walljump edgeguards? I'm curious because I believe those are things that will (hopefully) catch on with Ikes soon, they are really valuable tools to optimize his punishes.

I was actually doing more of that when I used Ike then he did lol. I tried showing him some stuff he should try utilizing more so I could figure out how to get around it. Although we didn't end up playing on stages with walls too often. He was one of the Ikes that went to that project m tournament in san fransisco.

Ike definitely feels momentum based. If he can get a good hit on you, you are going to be tossed around until you are off stage. I felt like some of the characters I used held him off well at the neutral game and could just punish him well for whiffing anything, which he did because he felt too confident swinging around that giant hitbox.

 

[leelue]

2 frames of buffer would let me play sonic to closer to full potential. nobody wants that.

Oh and I dont want to play against a fox with any extra margin for error. **** space and every animal in it

Also, I like Cfalcs scarf

 

[metroid1117]

I was actually doing more of that when I used Ike then he did lol. I tried showing him some stuff he should try utilizing more so I could figure out how to get around it. Although we didn't end up playing on stages with walls too often. He was one of the Ikes that went to that project m tournament in san fransisco.

Was his name Count? I played friendlies with him that day; if he is, then tell him I said "hi" .

Ike definitely feels momentum based. If he can get a good hit on you, you are going to be tossed around until you are off stage. I felt like some of the characters I used held him off well at the neutral game and could just punish him well for whiffing anything, which he did because he felt too confident swinging around that giant hitbox.

I agree with this, but something I think will also catch on (and something that I don't do enough) is using QD to gain more control over the neutral game. QD can be used as a retreat, as an approach (QD attack, short-hop -> QD attack to feint a short-hop FAir/NAir, QD -> JC grab, or QD -> aerial), or as a feint (QD -> wavedash). I need to get into the habit of just running away more to reset my spacing rather than attacking all of the time. If Ike has enough room for this, then it should theoretically be hard to pin him down on stages like FD, Pictochat, and PS2.

As a side note, FD has become my favorite neutral stage.

Also, I like Cfalcs scarf

I personally hate the scarf, ascot, or whatever it is.

 

[leelue]

It is my second or third least favorite out of the "standard fare" Yoshis, then either DL or FD

 

[metroid1117]

It is my second or third least favorite out of the "standard fare" Yoshis, then either DL or FD

Why is that? I would've thought that a Sonic main would enjoy a lot of room to work with. If FD is one of your least favorite neutral stages, then what's your favorite neutral stage?

 

[leelue]

OH
I love playing there as sonic. I was talking about the stage.

 

[iLink]

Was his name Count? I played friendlies with him that day; if he is, then tell him I said "hi" .



I agree with this, but something I think will also catch on (and something that I don't do enough) is using QD to gain more control over the neutral game. QD can be used as a retreat, as an approach (QD attack, short-hop -> QD attack to feint a short-hop FAir/NAir, QD -> JC grab, or QD -> aerial), or as a feint (QD -> wavedash). I need to get into the habit of just running away more to reset my spacing rather than attacking all of the time. If Ike has enough room for this, then it should theoretically be hard to pin him down on stages like FD, Pictochat, and PS2.

As a side note, FD has become my favorite neutral stage.



I personally hate the scarf, ascot, or whatever it is.

His name is Von.

I agree with you about the QD thing to space yourself. I actually suggested to him to do the very same. He definitely started getting more hits that way. I still felt like I had enough foresight in the neutral game to figure my way around it.

Also funny thing you mention FD. We played on that quite a bit and it was actually the stage I felt most comfertable playing Ike on because I had so muh space to dash back and away from him if he was incoming.

I should probably mention that Im not speaking about every character. I was mostly using characters wih good ground speed/dash dancing/wavedashing/weaving. Lucas did surprisingly well.

 

[leelue]

As sonic, My favorite stages to be on are fd, dracs, halberd and rumble falls.

 

[metroid1117]

His name is Von.

... Oops. My bad, I mixed up his name with someone else at the tournament.

Also funny thing you mention FD. We played on that quite a bit and it was actually the stage I felt most comfertable playing Ike on because I had so muh space to dash back and away from him if he was incoming.

I should probably mention that Im not speaking about every character. I was mostly using characters wih good ground speed/dash dancing/wavedashing/weaving. Lucas did surprisingly well.

I personally like FD because there's a lot of room for UThrow combos and QD combos. UThrow -> reverse BAir -> UTilt -> reverse BAir is really satisfying to do at low %s and QD chaingrabbing with FThrow/BThrow works pretty well if they DI incorrectly. From my experience against Lucas, PK Freeze spam is a good way to wall out Ike but my opponent didn't wavedash because he was using Wii-mote + Nunchuck. I can only imagine how effective proper PK Freeze walling is when combined with wavedashing.

As sonic, My favorite stages to be on are fd, dracs, halberd and rumble falls.

Not Dreamland? Or do your opponents live too long there?

 

[leelue]

Dont want platforms in my way. It's hard to set up gimps with those side plats blocking my homing attacks. It's not bad to play on... but i'd prefer to be elsewhere.

Sonic has the most freedom in the game when there isn't stuff in the way. Like hitboxes or platforms

 

[BJN39]

Ugh, it's 2 am here and I just read the entire troll brawl mod thread so I felt really brain melted when reading all this smart stuff.

Q: What would anyone call Zelda's play style? Zoning? Camping? I mean I know its defensive but what would it be called?

 

[leelue]

It's very dependent on your opponents character, and even the stage if you ask me. But I play zelda as like my.... 6th character down or something

 

[`dazrin]

I'm going to make it a life goal to start saying "Alakadoof" instead of "God" from now on.

That is a fantastic idea.

"doofdammit, sinisterb"

 

[iLink]

... Oops. My bad, I mixed up his name with someone else at the tournament.



I personally like FD because there's a lot of room for UThrow combos and QD combos. UThrow -> reverse BAir -> UTilt -> reverse BAir is really satisfying to do at low %s and QD chaingrabbing with FThrow/BThrow works pretty well if they DI incorrectly. From my experience against Lucas, PK Freeze spam is a good way to wall out Ike but my opponent didn't wavedash because he was using Wii-mote + Nunchuck. I can only imagine how effective proper PK Freeze walling is when combined with wavedashing.

There was a Count there too, although he doesnt use ike.

I can understand having the freedom of combos from FD, but I reeeeaally hated ending up on platforms against ike.



Fun fact: Lucas' dair can hit ike during the upb spin of his recovery.

 

[Archangel]

 

[`dazrin]

your first point, I will concede that is a legitimate disadvantage to having the buffer on. having 1 or 2 frames of buffer will make that happen slightly more often. if you don't like those odds, then don't use buffer, I never said it should be a standard, just an option. again, MAX 2 frames. it's not that big.

melee has such a ridiculously high tech skill ceiling, it's not going to be reached by adding a couple frames, but it will overall increase players' consistency, which I don't think is really inherently a bad thing. you have slightly better tech skill, which means slightly better matches, and fewer elementary mistakes made by missing single frame commands.

having 2 frames won't make you a frame perfect killing machine, being a good player will. it's NOT a slippery slope to brawldom if you cap it at a low amount, and 'because melee' is not really valid at this point, because I think it's already pretty clear that they're not trying to make a game that is exactly like melee, nor can they even do that without making a lot of sacrifices

I would agree with you, but after thinking about it, this ISN'T Melee.

This is project:M. Spacies are easier to use in this game compared to Melee, so something like that isn't necessary. It's just giving every single fox/falco player the ability to multi-shine consistently and taking away the space animal number 1 weakness: consistency. Buffer also doesn't promote practice and improving your tech skill legitimately. It's a handicap that inherently gives players an advantage and removes the margin for error.

Part of the amazement of Melee was maintaining extremely consistent tech skill at top levels of play as a result of practice and dedication. Buffer throws all of that down the toilet and says, "Hey, take the wonder drug and you'll be frame perfect." And then what happens to the people who actually legitimately worked hard to develop their tech skill? What about people who only agree to play with buffer turned on? It will end up causing controversy and divide the community into "Buffer on" VS "Buffer off" tournaments.

Yes, 2 frames doesn't seem like that much, but as we've already seen, even 1 frame makes a huge difference. Playing PM and playing Melee feel different because of (mainly) that. If this were Melee, I definitely would agree with your argument as it's a legitimate point in keeping players from being punished too hard for making 1 frame mistakes that mean the difference between life and death- but once again, that is part of the amazement of Melee. The game is hard because when you become good, it's rewarding and people are amazed with the time that you took to become technically consistent. If we want our community to thrive and universally develop better players, buffer should be turned off for tournament play.

Besides, Fox and Falco would become even BETTER. >_> They don't need something like that.

Buffer is a training tool, and there isn't anything wrong with that- it helps make players better by giving them an option to learn how to do specific techniques more consistently after learning the inputs. Slowly decreasing buffer and practicing the technique gives new players a fantastic tool that was never present in melee, and that's great. I just don't think it should be legal in tournaments for the reasons above.

 

[Onomanic]

That is a fantastic idea.

"doofdammit, sinisterb"

Yes! Yesssss! "doof" works just as well as the full Alakadoof!

EDIT TO MAKE AN ACTUAL POST: I agree with buffer making a huge difference. I struggled with Fox's tech skill a bit in P:M and couldn't quite land waveshines on hit lag. With 1-2 frames of buffer, I was waveshining across the stage. I was making a friend of mine very frustrated because he knows my Fox sucks. I played Melee earlier today and couldn't even WD properly with Fox. Sure for some characters, 1-2 frames of buffer won't make much a difference, but with someone like Fox, it makes all the difference. I went from 2001 shineless Fox combos to modern with 2 frames of buffer.

In summary, 1-2 frames of buffer makes a huge difference.

 

[abcool]

Fixing the scarf is an optional thing you can do yourself with textures and vertex mods and that jazz.

They can't replace sfx without forcing people to use riivolution

Have you seen my Project M videos? Nothing is that has Brawl SFX. Their is no texture that i can use in the demo that removes Falcon's scarf that actually works. (That Scarfless Falcon texture doesn't work i have tried it) The Melee Falcon texture i was told messes with his hitboxes. Also, the Falcon SFX can't be replaced unless someone does it that know about sfx. If i can find a sfx that does that(which i don't think exist) I would have replaced that with all the other terrible sfx Brawl has in the game.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

So after playing against an Ike for the day, I don't think he needs much changes. Went out of my way to see which characters just had the right tools to space well against him.

Only change I would maybe possible consider is not making fair so safe on shield and maybe increase the cooldown on ftilt/dtilt. Didn't have too much trouble actually beating out the upb with a lot of characters.

The more I think about it, the more I feel like the side b nonsense needs to be gone, despite how fun it was initially. Its just insane the possibilities he has with it, and for a character that has so much range, kill potential, and pretty decent weight, I don't feel its necessary for him to have it. He isn't broken, but he is kinda obnoxious with it, its like they tried too hard to make him to be able to compete against fox, so they turned him into something like him lol. Honestly subtlety should be practiced more in character design, look at characters like link, he didn't get any "you can jump out of this" moves, they just subtlety improved him, and that made him amazing. I'd say more but I'm pressed for time so I'll leave it at that.

 

[_Keno_]

So why is crouch-canceling in this game, other than "it was in melee"? Does it somehow make the game better by giving everyone another defensive option?

Despite being a peach player, i was looking forward to this ridiculous mechanic being taken out.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So why is crouch-canceling in this game, other than "it was in melee"?

You might be surprised how often that alone wins out in the decision-making process.

That said, some people feel that it creates a better balance between offense and defense.

 

[iLink]

The more I think about it, the more I feel like the side b nonsense needs to be gone, despite how fun it was initially. Its just insane the possibilities he has with it, and for a character that has so much range, kill potential, and pretty decent weight, I don't feel its necessary for him to have it. He isn't broken, but he is kinda obnoxious with it, its like they tried too hard to make him to be able to compete against fox, so they turned him into something like him lol. Honestly subtlety should be practiced more in character design, look at characters like link, he didn't get any "you can jump out of this" moves, they just subtlety improved him, and that made him amazing. I'd say more but I'm pressed for time so I'll leave it at that.

His sideb is the one thing that is keeping him from being just a bad character IMO. He wouldnt have many options to make up for his weaknesses. The sideb walljump might be a little random to give him but I dont think I would really change anything else about it.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

What is a matchup like, DK vs Falco looking like right now? Currently it seems imba as **** and impossible for DK. Unless i'm not seeing something. Bowser has super armor so he can atleast make some reads on your approaches, i see no benefit to playing DK.

he needs like, hardcore hitstun on his moves with low *** knockback so he can just wreck people when he gets a hit. even then how does he even approach someone like falco lol

or some kinda tech to make him feared. he's just a slow character with basically average normals :/ the big guys definitely deserve a perk for the cost of being big/slow with no TRUE upside to it.

 

[Strong Badam]

Pick DK -> Lose to Falco

Hitstun is not modifiable on a per-move basis.

 

[iLink]

He has dash attack

And cargo uthrow

Falco is definitely one of his harder match ups but he wrecks falco if he can get a hit or grab on him

 

[Strong Badam]

on one stage

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Falco is definitely one of his harder match ups but he wrecks falco if he can get a hit or grab on him

The whole cast can say that. The important part is how hard it is for some characters to get a hit or grab on him.

GUN

 

[Strong Badam]

INFINITE BULLETS BABY

GREATEST CHARACTER DESIGN EVER

caps