Project M Social Thread

[BJN39]

You should just go ahead and hack your Wii. Nintendo probably isn't going to make another update at this point and you can use mods for other games and emulators for your Wii once you do.

Nah, it'll be totally fine. Besides, isn't there some way to save them in my profile? I could just do it there. besides, this is currently the only game I play on the wii.

Also, question to the developers: what's the current state of ZSS? As in like, is she almost ready to be universally useable?

Also again, out of curiosity, who do people think are some of the better chars, and some of the less effective chars?
From what I've seen and heard, Zelda and Marth seem to be very effective, while to me, Link seems ineffective. He's a solid character, but everything i've seen he seems to struggle to win.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Could someone explain the sweetspot on his Uair? Its like the size of a Pea and below his ***.

lolBrawlhitboxes is my guess.

 

[Onomanic]

If you're looking for an easy win, Link is not for you.

 

[iLink]

Could someone explain the sweetspot on his Uair? Its like the size of a Pea and below his ***.

I think it's in the very center of the clap. I do think it could stand to be a little easier to sweetspot.

While on that note, why is D3's linger nair hitbox so freaking tiny?

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm pretty sure that is how it is in vBrawl as well.

 

[iLink]

Ok but why is it still like that? Is there any reason for it?

 

[Kink-Link5]

You're asking the wrong guy; I use this travesty of a hitbox collection

 

[DMG]

Because Melee that's why

 

[iLink]

That's... an interesting collection of hitboxes.

 

[GP&B]

Man, check out the priority on that one.

 

[`dazrin]

Nah, it'll be totally fine. Besides, isn't there some way to save them in my profile? I could just do it there. besides, this is currently the only game I play on the wii.

Also, question to the developers: what's the current state of ZSS? As in like, is she almost ready to be universally useable?

Also again, out of curiosity, who do people think are some of the better chars, and some of the less effective chars?
From what I've seen and heard, Zelda and Marth seem to be very effective, while to me, Link seems ineffective. He's a solid character, but everything i've seen he seems to struggle to win.

The PMBR isn't revealing any non-demo 2.1 characters until they feel that they are ready. It'd be nice if people just focused on the characters they have already been given and develop metagames for them.

She'll be shown when she's ready ^_^

You know what I meant with the video. A lot of people don't know how to play Wario and there have been zero videos of a good Wario (outside of JCz's).

So that's why I said what I said and posted it.

Lol @ your custom title.

Get your name changed to SMK. lool

 

[metroid1117]

Also again, out of curiosity, who do people think are some of the better chars, and some of the less effective chars?
From what I've seen and heard, Zelda and Marth seem to be very effective, while to me, Link seems ineffective. He's a solid character, but everything i've seen he seems to struggle to win.

In my opinion, Marth is a little worse (in comparison to the rest of the cast); he's a character that relies on gimps and edgeguards since he has a hard time killing anything past 120%. Because recoveries in general are better and edge detection is shorter than in Melee, he can't get those early kills quite as easily.

I don't have any personal experience with Link, but the general consensus is that he's really good.

As for my personal opinion, I think Ike, Mario, DK, Lucario, D3, and TL are good characters. I'm hesitant to put Wolf up there just because his combos don't seem to be as guaranteed as theirs.

EDIT: I forgot to add Ganon to that list.

 

[Vkrm]

With marth both d tilt and f smash don't hit like they ought to. I'd like it to be fixed but if Marth is just good instead of great I prob won't switch from maining him. Love him too much.

 

[`dazrin]

Wolf is a great character- but by far, the worst spacie of the bunch just because of how amazing Fox and Falco are.

Similarly to Falcon, he relies a lot on reads and techchasing, and combined with the tech skill involved to play a space animal, it takes a lot of work for too little pay-off to play wolf. However, his combos look extremely damn cool when a player is able to utilize Wolf correctly He's very Falcon-esque in that sense, but requires fox-like tech skill.

Another problem is that many characters have many ways to deal with a fast faller in PM because of the inherent threat that Fox and Falco are. Wolf is a bi-product of this and suffers all the weaknesses of being a space animal without having as many pressure options as the other two space animals. It's also very easy to make a technical error and kill yourself as a result.

Overall though, I really believe Wolf is one of the better designed characters in PM, and it's amazing how the PMBR was able to create a space animal (who truly feels like a space animal) of a different flavor. He'll probably end up being the new Falcon of PM on the tierlist in my opinion because of the level of play Wolf demands from the player, but he could just as easily end up being right up there directly below Fox and Falco. Nothing is for certain since it's only been three months we've had to explore Wolf and he's a space animal who has tons of metagame still waiting to be explored and discovered. He's like a giant bubble of metagame just waiting to burst.

And not to worry, Vkrm, Marth is still a great character in PM as well, but I do agree with Metroid that he could definitely drop in placing because his skill set isn't as efficient as it was in Melee just because there far are more characters with better recoveries. In my opinion, despite all of that, I think he's still one of the better characters in the game... maybe near the bottom of the top 10. Hard to say with things still being so early.

 

[leelue]

Does wolf really not pressure as well as fox? Waveshining mixed with laser wavelands sounds sick on paper

 

[`dazrin]

I mean, like I said, Wolf has a great character with spacie-like qualities. He just doesn't seem to have as many pressure options as the other space animals do. It's undeniable that Wolf can pressure, and can do it well. It's mainly because of the lack of a sex-kick, or any lingering moves for that matter, that Wolf's pressure options aren't as varied as Fox and Falco's. Maybe if bair came out faster or stayed out longer, Wolf's pressure would be much better, but it's very doubtful that he would need it. He's good enough in other areas that it may not really matter too much. There are still plenty of unexplored options Wolf players don't utilize because of how early it is in the metagame. Meanwhile, Fox and Falco are pretty well explored, and most players know how to utilize the most effective things to do in most situations with those characters since we as a community have learned and developed those characters so well.

For example, something that many wolf players don't do very often is sh ac fair. Very sheik-esque. It's pretty safe on shield like Sheiks, and Wolf can shine, nair, and shine again on a shield for some nasty pressure.

Wolf will probably develop more pressure options as the game is pushed along further through the years because of players understanding the game more, but right now, there don't seem to be very many pressure options with Wolf compared to the other two space animals.

 

[kaizo13]

why is D3's linger nair hitbox so freaking tiny?

this this this....i ask myself this everytime I nair

 

[leelue]

Because ganons up tilt exists

 

[JCaesar]

Two-frame B-Air hitbox was probably an exaggeration, but (also) probably not by much. Despite what the animation looks like, the hitbox disappears really quickly. You can't effectively wall or poke with it as a result, given that you're supposed to weave so much, so his one ranged aerial ends up being kind of bad for anything but finishing a combo with (and it's not even particularly good at -that-).

Bair's hitbox is active for 5 frames.

You know, now that you're part of the backroom, you have a responsibility to not spread misinformation about the game. Something like this takes 30 seconds to look up in PSA. If you don't know how to do that, ask for help in the IRC.

Could someone explain the sweetspot on his Uair? Its like the size of a Pea and below his ***.

Frame 7:

Frame 8:

The larger hitbox (the sweetspot) has priority.

Frame 9 and 10 are the same as frame 8 except the smaller hitbox is deleted and it's all sweetspot.

Hopefully that answers your question. The sweetspot is quite large and above him, but hits on the 2nd hit frame, so you have to not hit with the initial hit (his hands when they are at his sides) in order to get the sweetspot.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

isn't wolfs nair a multi-hit move? like it was in brawl? (have only played against wolve a couplle of times)
wouldn't that be great for shieldpressure? (nair->shine->nair->...)

 

[leelue]

Works against me

 

[SinisterB]

Nair shine is definitely good shield pressure. Waveland blasters coupled with great aerials all-around & his fast space animal nature grant him some pretty measurable pressure. Mix in some multishines and general spacie stuff and you've got panic waiting to happen. I believe he still has lots of areas left to be explored, but that goes for everyone at the moment. Dazrin pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Aside from AC Fair, I don't see Wolfs utilizing their Flash shortens enough. Half Cancel especially, is great for finishing combos and multiple tricks like Planking.

 

[`dazrin]

Nair shine is great shield pressure. Probably his most obvious bread and butter pressure tool Wolf has.

It's no falco dair/nair/bair shine though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Bair's hitbox is active for 5 frames.

You know, now that you're part of the backroom, you have a responsibility to not spread misinformation about the game. Something like this takes 30 seconds to look up in PSA. If you don't know how to do that, ask for help in the IRC.

I tried that, including asking for help, to no avail. Eventually, people got busy. It happens. I'm not completely irresponsible.

Also, I feel like that's a small part of the overall point, with the overall point still holding water. You can only throw it out when you can immediately L-Cancel afterward, because the endlag is very, very long. This is because they didn't want to make Wario into another Jigglypuff, I imagine.

Now I feel uncomfortable about saying anything about Wario here, present or future, for fear I'm gonna get scolded for spreading misinformation. I have enough negative gold stars as it is. For all it's worth, as JCaesar said, I'm in the Back Room, so, I'm working hard to make the character more effective and more fun.

 

[PB&J]

for the record, wizzy has beaten hbox so much worse without buffer. I dont know that much stuff about sonic but buffering does not seem good for me when i play fox/falco. it actually messes me up tbh. so i dont understand why people think its that big of a difference just because you have some frame window.

cant wait til some of these people in here play wizzy without buffer,just to come up with some other excuse why he won

 

[BJN39]

The PMBR isn't revealing any non-demo 2.1 characters until they feel that they are ready. It'd be nice if people just focused on the characters they have already been given and develop metagames for them.

She'll be shown when she's ready.

Okay. That makes sence, and sorry for being a little too wanty.

I'm not suprised that people think link is good, he is, it's just every video I've seen he has either lost, or got lucky and gimped them to reverse the momentum right at the end... I should go look for more videos...

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Well we're talking about Project M, not melee. Leelue is right I'm just kinda trolling him because I think I'm better.

In that case i am going to say i understood what he was saying but disagreed b/c i think i am the best. (Why dont we have pm tourneys in ny)?

 

[leelue]

for the record, wizzy has beaten hbox so much worse without buffer. I dont know that much stuff about sonic but buffering does not seem good for me when i play fox/falco. it actually messes me up tbh. so i dont understand why people think its that big of a difference just because you have some frame window.

cant wait til some of these people in here play wizzy without buffer,just to come up with some other excuse why he won

Let me clear this up for you
We all know that he beat him before
Facts
But in the most recent video, he was doing something in particular that's pretty damn close to impossible.
One of the basic problems of playing sonic involves the hitlag accrued coming out of side b. See, if you miss, the wavedash timing is one way. If you hit with the jump, the timing is noticeably different. Now, the window of time that you have to "confirm" a timing is too low for a human to do on reaction. You can guess, but against a moving target you simply won't be right all of the time. If you guess wrong, either you miss and your wavedash is clunky Or you hit and your wavedash doesn't come out at all.

Facts

With 3 frames or so of buffer, that error disappears.

Not only that, the shield pressure being applied relies heavily on having a limitless window of error. Consider even simply spinning into a RAR dair and going into a down b charge. You'd have to get the now easy timing to jump out, replace the air dodge with dair, and mash down b (which will buffer to the first available frame). Frame perfection for sonic is not to be brushed aside as a trivial matter.

 

[PB&J]

Oh, I see now.

I still think wizzy would beat all the same people that he would without it

 

[GHNeko]

Leelue. I want to recruit you as a fellow Sonic bro.

Are you a bad enough dude?

 

[Ryan-K]

Eli is better than me

Ben Grimm, stop worrying about Project M worry more about the price of Rogaine.

 

[metroid1117]

Aside from AC Fair, I don't see Wolfs utilizing their Flash shortens enough. Half Cancel especially, is great for finishing combos and multiple tricks like Planking.

Going along with this, shortened Flashes allows for things like BThrow -> short Flash and DAir -> short Flash.

Let me clear this up for you
We all know that he beat him before
Facts
But in the most recent video, he was doing something in particular that's pretty damn close to impossible.
One of the basic problems of playing sonic involves the hitlag accrued coming out of side b. See, if you miss, the wavedash timing is one way. If you hit with the jump, the timing is noticeably different. Now, the window of time that you have to "confirm" a timing is too low for a human to do on reaction. You can guess, but against a moving target you simply won't be right all of the time. If you guess wrong, either you miss and your wavedash is clunky Or you hit and your wavedash doesn't come out at all.

Facts

With 3 frames or so of buffer, that error disappears.

Not only that, the shield pressure being applied relies heavily on having a limitless window of error. Consider even simply spinning into a RAR dair and going into a down b charge. You'd have to get the now easy timing to jump out, replace the air dodge with dair, and mash down b (which will buffer to the first available frame). Frame perfection for sonic is not to be brushed aside as a trivial matter.

Cool stuff Leelue, thanks for taking the time to post this.

 

[Metà]

I think that a good compromise between allowing and banning buffer would be to set a hard limit if two frames max. Ifeel like Melee could have greatly benefited from having a small buffer window like that, because it simply smoothens the game out a bit.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Eli is better than me

Ben Grimm, stop worrying about Project M worry more about the price of Rogaine.

Wow what an *******, you are getting way to personal and you dont know me well enough for that.

 

[DrinkingFood]

It doesn't smooth out the game. The game is 100% smooth if you've played your characters for a reasonable amount of time. If anything, it makes the game less smooth by forcing inputs to be acted upon that you weren't expecting because you hit a shield or the opponent.
vbrawl Ike buffering a jab and being shield pushed off the stage, anyone remember that? Of course with a shorter nair he won't have that problem anymore... but other characters will have similar ones.
Granted, 2 frames of buffer is very little. So the change would be very little. But the change isn't even needed in the first place.

 

[Life]

^Problem was in Melee too. Well, not in that exact scenario, but am I the only one that tends to nair to my doom when trying to shieldgrab as a space animal and not paying attention?

 

[GHNeko]

Solution: Buffer players have to play with less stocks. This way they're forced to make less mistakes and non-buffer can make more mistakes!

Win - Win!

:V

 

[DrinkingFood]

@life
Yeah that can happen to because you can only react so fast to being shield pushed/pushed some other way off the edge if you aren't expecting it. But buffer increases the window- nobody wants that.
Also, why isn't this
http://projectm.dantarion.com/changes.php
in the tabs at the side of the webpage for easier finding? I've been interesting in reading the specifics for a while now.

 

[Shadic]

Wasn't updated for Demo 2, iirc. And we weren't happy with the formatting.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Oh I see. I knew it seemed a little skimpy.