Project M Social Thread

[foshio]

Yeah, it is.

Also, P:M tournament in Orlando tomorrow. That's the day I'm found to be a fraud.

Bull Pies! You can do it Reflex! (Random fanboyism to someone that I've never really watched play)
I love the hype and controversy Ike has given PM. It gives people incentive to practice and work on this game! Meta game will be levelling up soon

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I believe in you Reflex. Even though you said that reference was bad, you have an awesome avatar, so that makes up for it

We're having a PM tournament in NC on the 1st (Well, technically it's Melee/Brawl/PM/MvC3/P4A. I have no clue how Alex plans to handle all of that in one day, but I'm sure he'll find a way). I'll try to record it.

Also, I run my game off a 320GB external hard drive, so I'm pretty sure a drill the size of the universe could... Actually, there's no way it could fit on that.

 

[Strawhat64]

Question:

How can you double jump cancel with Ness?

 

[DMG]

Double Jump quickly

Throw out aerial

If you use Uair, it will look like he's trying to sniff his crotch while rubbing his butt against the ground.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Question:

How can you double jump cancel with Ness?

I believe it's the same with Lucas and Ness--If you're holding the Jump command when you start an aerial, the double jump isn't canceled, while not holding a Jump button when you do an aerial will cancel the double jump.

 

[PGH Carroll]

i feel like it should be the other way around

also IKE

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I think Ike should be able to DJC.

 

[Oracle]

I believe it's the same with Lucas and Ness--If you're holding the Jump command when you start an aerial, the double jump isn't canceled, while not holding a Jump button when you do an aerial will cancel the double jump.

It is. Also if you hit up on the control stick and an aerial at the same time then it'll djc

 

[NeoZ]

This is entirely exaggerestimating™. Several parts are both false and fallacious. "Average reaction time is like 13-14 frames" is by itself wrong, as average human reaction time is no more than 13 frames (.215 seconds). Saying a number is "like" another under or overvalues the original number, depending on the desired argument.
(...)
So let's pretend people who go into competitive video gaming tend to be people with, you know, good reaction time. Not great, good. We don't all get to be blessed with Taj's 8-9 frame inputs, and that's fine. But there are still a largely reasonable amount of people with 11 and 12 frame reactions. Let's exaggerestimate™ this by only looking at the number that supports our argument better. 11 Frame reaction time means that with merely above average reaction time you have 6 frames to do something about it. Three times as long as your original, logically and factually, incorrect statement.

I remembered it was 14 frames and searched for the actual number after writing the post, so when I found it I just added the "13-", I should have been less lazy, so I'm sorry about that.

Going by your logic(which I'll address in the next paragraphs), you have 6 frames to respond.
What options do you have that would deal with fair in that period of time?
I'd like you to answer this question even if you don't agree with what's next, so we can at least evaluate the options characters have in our best case scenario.
Don't forget what you input takes place at the next available frame, so that adds time between your reaction and the action in game.

I'll use collapse tags to avoid cluttering the page.
Moving on to what you said and being factually correct:
[COLLAPSE=""]We'll go with 215ms(12.9 frames) as mean reaction time.
Let's also consider a 9 frame reaction time for top level players, which puts them next to Olympic athletes, which is to be expected anyway for top players in almost any competitive video game.

That would mean they have tons of time to react, but wait, could there be a difference between reacting to something and recognizing what that is and reacting accordingly?

Apparently there is!(SHOCKING)

According to studies about this, reaction time in this instance goes down from our 215ms(or 220 according to the studies) to 384ms(THAT'S 23 FRAMES, WOW).
And could there be a difference in reaction time when the amount of things you could react to increases?

Why, yes there is!

Reaction time scales proportionally to N or log(N), depending on the study, with N being the number of valid stimuli.

But what did the studies say that "just a bit" was? It was 40ms per added item.

We also have to consider other factors, like how tense you are(reaction time becomes worse if your are too tense or too relaxed) and how much you've practiced the situation.
[/COLLAPSE]
So if we wanna be factual, your statement was wrong , but thanks for trying.

And we go back to what I said, reacting to the move will in most instances be because you expected it, most likely because you discarded other options as viable alternatives, due to the distance between your opponent and you, because you recognized a pattern or for another reason that seemed compelling enough during the match.

[COLLAPSE="Bibliography"]Donders, F. C. 1868. On the speed of mental processes. Translated by W. G. Koster, 1969. Acta Psychologica 30: 412-431.

Hick, W. E. 1952. On the rate of gain of information. Quarterly Journal of Experimental Psychology 4: 11-26.

Laming, D. R. J. 1968. Information Theory of Choice-Reaction Times. Academic Press, London.

Miller, J. O. and K. Low. 2001. Motor processes in simple, go/no-go, and choice reaction time tasks: a psychophysiological analysis. Journal of Experimental Psychology: Human Perception and Performance 27: 266.

Nickerson, R. S. 1972. Binary-classification reaction times: A review of some studies of human information-processing capabilities. Psychonomic Monograph Supplements 4: 275-318.

Sternberg, S. 1969. Memory scanning: Mental processes revealed by reaction time experiments. American Scientist 57: 421-457.[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Kink-Link5]

Well Mario just fights for drugs and cake, so he should probably be nerfed. Also Ness fights for the universe so I suggest massive buffs to his everything.



I'm guessing/hoping you're trolling.

I'm being facetious. There are 38 matchups for Ike to deal with.

"38 examples of how to beat Ike's unbeatable fair."

"Can't be applied to the whole cast."


Frame talk is going into theoretical territory at this point, but since we are doing so anyway, you should already be dash dancing or otherwise not dedicating yourself, Ike's jumpsquat is an additional 5 frames, and even with the fastest input after jumpsquat, it becomes active 21 frames after jumping, you can always choose to just, you know attack him since nothng he does is fast enough to contend against anything else, and there are a number of other player tells and patterns before jumping, such as dashing into a jump, you know that loud hugely noticeable dust cloud animation that is loud and makes noise that is faster to react to than light and is loud.




Because really, are you seriously insinuating that there's no way to react to Ike's fair?

 

[iLink]

I'll just use toonlink

 

[Kink-Link5]

Sounds like a plan. Nair is almost as silly as regular Link's.

 

[NeoZ]

Frame talk is going into theoretical territory at this point, but since we are doing so anyway, you should already be dash dancing or otherwise not dedicating yourself, Ike's jumpsquat is an additional 5 frames, and even with the fastest input after jumpsquat, it becomes active 21 frames after jumping, you can always choose to just, you know attack him since nothng he does is fast enough to contend against anything else, and there are a number of other player tells and patterns before jumping, such as dashing into a jump, you know that loud hugely noticeable dust cloud animation that is loud and makes noise that is faster to react to than light and is loud.


Because really, are you seriously insinuating that there's no way to react to Ike's fair?

I never insinuated that, I was just addressing this:

Let's assume the opponents aren't terrible and can react to 16 frames of start up. And let's assume character matchups tend to be a mixture of good and bad in a well designed game.

Which is exactly why I quoted it in my original post.
Nice attempt at a strawman and red herring there anyway, I suppose by not even trying to refute what I said you are conceding the point.

I better explain myself again so you don't get confused: you don't deal with this type of move by just standing there and reacting to it, like you implied, you can abuse the fact it has slow start-up and don't let it come out, you can bait it and punish, or just stay out of range if you have enough options to fight like that.

It's funny that you seem to agree with most of that, but you were so caught up on calling me wrong because I said 13-14 that you started posting, well, what you posted.

And really, 21 frames?
Cause every time Ike jumps he's going to fair?
He can't use it in any other situation other just than jumping and doing it?
Ike has other options, he doesn't have to jump every time he wants to attack, so I suggest you think a bit before posting stuff like this.

It was also nice to see you abandon your whole frame data talk as soon as I showed you were wrong, but if you're not gonna refute what I said, try not to make stuff up so you can attack it instead.

BTW, I loved the .44444449 example, a very fallacious(it's a slippery slope, in case you're wondering, it's also a false analogy) way of showing how approximating works, good job there.

Also "tells and patterns", is something I talked about in both of my posts, so thanks for reinforcing my point.

TL;DR: Next time you want to call people fallacious, try not using so many fallacies yourself.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Fallacy of Fallacies. You were and still are factually incorrect and throwing out buzzwords like "red herring" does not enforce your augment any more than spouting them refutes mine.

 

[iLink]

Realistically, you also aren't going to be beating out Ike's fair unless you have a 3-5 frame attack with good range or invincibility on reaction.

At least not all the time or without foresight.

EDIT: I like simple words.

 

[OmegaMuffin]

Streaming again! I'll try to fix the echo problem I had earlier

http://www.twitch.tv/theomegamuffin#

 

[NeoZ]

Fallacy of Fallacies. You were and still are factually incorrect and throwing out buzzwords like "red herring" does not enforce your augment any more than spouting them refutes mine.

I was incorrect, I admitted it in my second post.
You seem to be ignoring that post.
Calling fallacies out is not "throwing out buzzwords", I'm recognizing them and pointing out what they are by their names so there's no confusion.

I don't have to refute fallacies, they are not logical arguments.

Realistically, you also aren't going to be beating out Ike's fair unless you have a 3-5 frame attack with good range or invincibility on reaction.

At least not all the time or without foresight.

EDIT: I like simple words.

Pretty much.

 

[Kink-Link5]

You also conveniently ignored your own initial point about patterns, such as fair always having the same start up before it hits, or a sound playing before something to react to happens, and my mentioning sound stimuli having a more positive effect on reaction timing.


If you can find a reaction test to determine reaction to, let's use for example, a Red flash, followed by a Purple Flash, where the flashes were equidistant apart in a time frame, and the test was to measure proper reaction to the purple flash, it would be properly analogous to the theory behind reacting to things in a game. There comes a problem when measuring something like this because of the variables involved, we can both agree to that. I admit I do not have the proper motivational investment (I'm too lazy) to further look into the matter, but you're more than welcome to if you feel like more needs to be said on the matter (but you can if you want).

 

[iLink]

Can we all agree that Ike is dumb as is? Whether it be that he is good or bad.

 

[Vkrm]

How much memory does an SD card need to have on it for it to to be compatible with PM? Also are brawl players better at pm than the melee vets?

 

[Kink-Link5]

I agree, Ike really could use some buffs. A character supposedly based around a combination of speed and power sure lacks in speed.


For most methods, no more than 2GB can be used, and at least 1 GB is recommended.

 

[standardtoaster]

Streaming again! I'll try to fix the echo problem I had earlier

http://www.twitch.tv/theomegamuffin#

I can't watch it right now, but assuming you're using a microphone, go into sound settings and disable the microphone boost. This should fix your problem.

 

[NeoZ]

You also conveniently ignored your own initial point about patterns, such as fair always having the same start up before it hits, or a sound playing before something to react to happens, and my mentioning sound stimuli having a more positive effect on reaction timing.

When I said patterns I didn't mean the move's start-up, who even considers that a pattern?
And I never said people react slower to sounds, why would I when it would be completely wrong?

Though you bringing that up again is really funny, you're saying people should react to fair by reacting to the dash before the jump, when neither of those necessarily means he's going to fair.

I'll put in your own terms, the purple flash is coming after the red flash, but the time between them isn't always the same. Also a red flash doesn't mean a purple flash is coming, you insist on ignoring every other option the player has other than fair.

You seem to be anxious to answer fast instead of actually thinking about what you say.

How much memory does an SD card need to have on it for it to to be compatible with PM? Also are brawl players better at pm than the melee vets?

Some of them could be, but the game is closer to Melee than it is to Brawl, so it's unlikely.

 

[DMG]

I agree, Ike really could use some buffs. A character supposedly based around a combination of speed and power sure lacks in speed.

His power and range tho sure aren't lacking loool.

 

[standardtoaster]

Vkrm, you can use any size between 512MB and 2GB.

 

[Life]

The PM files are around 300MB IIRC. So yeah, what Toaster said, although if you want a lot of custom music, textures, etc. or if you store other things on it besides PM (like what? IDK, you find a reason) it might be a good idea to use 1GB or better.

 

[PGH Carroll]

I just decided I'm running an Ike only side event at my tourney in November.
And not even doing PM.

 

[Spoon~]

I just decided I'm running an Ike only side event at my tourney in November.
And not even doing PM.

Hype for project Ike

 

[Vkrm]

It's much too early in pm' s life cycle to say x character is broken in my opinion, but I might be biased because I like Ike so much. Although if a character is broken, the PMBR needs to know about right away so they can make changes before the final version is released.

 

[joY]

Necessary reiteration of an earlier post from Strong Bad:

It seems that people's complaints are driven toward what's popular, rather than what's actually effective, as well. All too many Ike's drowned in pools at FC, with only one of them performing well at all. Is that indicative of Ike being broken? To me, it isn't. To me, it's indicative of Vro doing what was necessary to perform well; he practiced with his character, he developed his metagame, he played the game quite a bit, and his skill in the game was rewarded when he almost took the whole thing, and he still lost against a player that most likely played the game far less than he did. Heck, for all we know, Lucas could be overpowered, and no one is using him, so how are we supposed to know? Maybe Ness is a secret Ike counter that Ike isn't able to do anything about? The fact of the matter is that people are spending more time complaining about how difficult Ike is to fight than figuring out how to more effectively fight against Ike. And what are the Ike players doing? They're practicing, they're getting better, they're getting more experience in match-ups. It's no wonder they're doing well; they're actually trying to get good at the game! We're simply not going to reward the prior kind of behavior, else any and all characters that people don't like fighting against will be subject to nerfing. Sorry. Play the game. Get better. Develop the metagame. If changes are needed they will happen when it's apparent to us that they are necessary, and not a moment sooner. The potential of this game is simply too great to go the easy route and water down the competitive side by punishing people for advancing the metagame nearly immediately. We're not Capcom; we're better.
Crying for Ike nerfs seems no different from crying for a Meta Knight ban. Get better first, then we'll talk.

 

[9Kplus1]

I just decided I'm running an Ike only side event at my tourney in November.
And not even doing PM.

A low tier tourney? I'm hype

 

[PGH Carroll]

Oh yeah, well you can to strong bad to shut up!

Ike

 

[leelue]

There appears to be this assumption from on high that not enough people are trying in earnest to learn how to beat ike. Like the majority of the playerbase just threw down their controls and banned ike from their fests until he gets nerfed.

 

[NeoZ]

There appears to be this assumption from on high that not enough people are trying in earnest to learn how to beat ike. Like the majority of the playerbase just threw down their controls and banned ike from their fests until he gets nerfed.

They didn't?

 

[chillindude829]

http://www.twitch.tv/chillindude2 Streaming Project M

 

[ph00tbag]

"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight - it's the size of the fight in the dog."
-Ike, on whether or not it's possible to beat Ike.

"If a problem cannot be solved, enlarge it."
-Ike, on what to do about Ike's sword.

"Ankles are nearly always neat and good-looking, but knees are nearly always not."
-Ike, on knees being ****ing dirty.

 

[cannedbread]

 

[PGH Carroll]

Best post. Be my dad.

 

[Life]

Best post. Be my dad.

Not detecting enough Ike in this post. Please remedy.

 

[Spoon~]

Not detecting enough Ike in this post. Ike. Ike. Ike. Ike.

Ike.