Project M Social Thread

[-Chad-]

I think I tried link and fox as well.

 

[iLink]

Let's assume the ike isn't terrible and is going to be whiffing fair all day on you. Let's also assume not every character has an amazing dash dance.

Fair doesn't exactly have a short hitbox and hitting someone's shield (or the actual person) is a very possible situation, especially when you consider the ike isn't dumb and has QD as an option to get even more distance.

Now lucario's fair on the other hand...

 

[`dazrin]

when you walk away you don't hear me say

-pleaaase, oh baby, don't go..
Simple and clean is the wayy that you're making me feel- tonight. It's hard to let it go..

-Ahem-
Anyways.

Personally, I don't think there's a -huge- problem with Ike atm, other than MU experience. Everything he has can be worked around, I feel. The only area I feel Ike should be toned down in is his how good his recovery is relative to how good he is onstage. It's a little too risky to edgeguard him, and he can keep QDWJing to stall out any edgehog attempts, not to mention that QD goes super far, and Aether has great vertical distance.

I think just toning down his recovery in some way would put him in a good place. It doesn't have to address all the things I listed, but at least one or two of them I think would keep Ike a great character without being able to always recover, no matter what.

I could be wrong, but I know the PMBR will get it right.

 

[cannedbread]

ike is like an exaggerated marth. whatever marth has that's good, ike has better; whatever marth has that's bad, ike has worse.

now let's look at what ike has that's good.
•good grab range
•decent throws
•good combo potential
•great edgeguarding ability
•huge disjoints!!
•tons of killing power and kill moves (fair, bair, uair, dair, fmash, usmash, dsmash, uthrow at higher %'s, ftilt... the list goes on)
•relatively safe recovery
•kind of heavy
•suprising mobility
•good wavedash
•usually safe on shield
•has the advantage of being new so no one knows his disadvantages as well
•recovery allows him to possibly stall indefinitely

now the bad
•no projectiles
•aerials have some noticeable startup lag
•because of the above, he's more susceptible to projectiles than marf because he can't swat stuff away
•cripples under pressure
•unreliable horizontal recovery
•bad oos options
•no one likes him so people will want to learn how to beat him first our of all the buffed newcomers lol

k guis beat him

 

[Kink-Link5]

Let's assume the ike isn't terrible and is going to be whiffing fair all day on you. Let's also assume not every character has an amazing dash dance.

Fair doesn't exactly have a short hitbox and hitting someone's shield (or the actual person) is a very possible situation, especially when you consider the ike isn't dumb and has QD as an option to get even more distance.

Now lucario's fair on the other hand...

Let's assume the opponents aren't terrible and can react to 16 frames of start up. And let's assume character matchups tend to be a mixture of good and bad in a well designed game.



First thing I thought from those lyrics was

When you walk away, nothing more to say
See the lightning in your eyes, see ‘em running for their lives

Slowly outta line
And drifting closer in your sights
So play it out I’m wide awake,
It’s a scene about me

There’s something in your way
And now someone is gonna pay
And if you can’t get what you want,
Well, it’s all because of me

 

[Divinokage]

You should not be whiffing any aerials whatsoever anyhow. Just like Ganon, Ike has to be precise and that's the way it should be. You don't have the luxury to whiff and anyhow at this high level I don't really whiff much anyhow and if I do I'm generally safe.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

and he'd be in the air, very vulnerable to projectiles...

Pretty much everybody is vulnerable to projectiles in the air...I don't know what else to say lol.

@drinkingfood - Thats a really cool story and everything but he already has plenty of super armor stuff, and a big nice shield that he can use just like the rest of the cast. By your logic ganon should be able to have super armor on his crouch because he actually has armor lol.

Look I'm trying to say he is broken, nor I'm saying that this absolutely needs to be fixed, I'm just saying its a bit much, and that maybe they should think about if he really needs it. I really like this game and everything, but I'm just worried that if moderation isn't practiced, its going to turn into brawl+ or god forbid brawl-.

Sorry guys, I'm not trying to cause drama or anything, I'm just giving my $.02.

 

[cannedbread]

i'm trying to develop an ike counter strategy
in order for this to go well
i have to ask metroid to stop sandbagging in friendlies
just watched a video
you better start playing as gay as you can
or direct me to a more homosexually inclined ike to study
sincerely yours

 

[iLink]

My point wasn't so much as someone just using fair all the time. Sure it's 16 frames of start up but you need to take the time and consider if he's also going to use any other aerial and then consider how you are going to respond, if you can at all. Most characters generally don't have many options against that 16 frame attack with the huge disjointed hitbox coming at them at that speed, other then shielding.

When you throw QD into the mix, you don't always know what the correct option should be.

Dash dancing works on the guys just throwing out sh fair all the time, but against the ones that use QD for setups and general mixups, it's not always as simple as making them throw out aerials. If you don't have a very good dash dance, you'll just end up getting hit.

 

[Sir Combee]

Does anyone else remember the days when the Project M thread wasn't the Ike boards?

Good times my friends, good times...

 

[Strong Badam]

Mr. Pickle, if you don't want this to end up like Brawl+ then you'll support our decision to be conservative with post-release balance changes. Brawl+ was plagued by being an ever-changing game; players didn't feel like developing a metagame for their character because whenever it happened, they were essentially punished for it by having their character nerfed. The competitive scene for Brawl+ died pretty quickly despite its early popularity because of this.

 

[NeoZ]

Let's assume the opponents aren't terrible and can react to 16 frames of start up. And let's assume character matchups tend to be a mixture of good and bad in a well designed game.

I have to admit I don't have much Ike experience, especially against good Ike's, so I'll just talk about this from a general point of view.

Average human reaction time is like 13-14 frames, a 16 frame move would leave you like 2 frames to do something about it.
I don't think most characters have options that they could go to on reaction to a fair.
Considering that, it seems doing something about it will almost always be because you expected the move due to spacing, patterns or whatever, not cause you were standing there and reacted to the startup.

 

[cannedbread]

Does anyone else remember the days when the Project M thread wasn't the Ike boards?

Good times my friends, good times...

lol deal w/ it

 

[drsusredfish]

how long was demo 1 out before the PMBR started showing clips of demo 2 stuff? when will clips of the new character surface? I'm just dying to see what they did to the other fighters.

 

[joY]

how long was demo 1 out before the PMBR started showing clips of demo 2 stuff? when will clips of the new character surface? I'm just dying to see what they did to the other fighters.

Well I remember seeing a lot of a beta build on Peef's stream over half a year ago. I saw Yoshi, Squirtle, Ivysaur, ZSS, etc.

 

[JCaesar]

Not till we're ready. We want people to focus on building a metagame out of demo 2, and as a way to assure players that this is a stable product worth investing time in, it is our policy not to publicly reveal any backroom material at the moment.

 

[`dazrin]

Calm down, drsusredfish!
They'll be shown when the PMBR is ready to show them

 

[cannedbread]

i don't even know who the pmbr are










who are you people

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Mr. Pickle, if you don't want this to end up like Brawl+ then you'll support our decision to be conservative with post-release balance changes. Brawl+ was plagued by being an ever-changing game; players didn't feel like developing a metagame for their character because whenever it happened, they were essentially punished for it by having their character nerfed. The competitive scene for Brawl+ died pretty quickly despite its early popularity because of this.

I know dude, I was there for most of the brawl+ era, but it there was more to it than that, some of it came from the mentality of "hey this thing that people are voicing their concern over, its staying lol whatever". A example of this was the shortened stage boundaries they tried. There was some other factors too but just try to get a middle ground at the end of all this meta developing time, and if all you guys do is acknowledge my concern as reasonable suggestion but still decide not to change it, thats cool with me lol.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Mr. Pickle, if you don't want this to end up like Brawl+ then you'll support our decision to be conservative with post-release balance changes. Brawl+ was plagued by being an ever-changing game; players didn't feel like developing a metagame for their character because whenever it happened, they were essentially punished for it by having their character nerfed. The competitive scene for Brawl+ died pretty quickly despite its early popularity because of this.

It's worth noting that Brawl+ was big on "flavor of the week;" changes appeared to be more related to what characters they thought were cool for a while, and there were not well-informed on a wide variety of characters, so they would buff characters that didn't need it, so it became imbalanced as well as difficult to keep up with because of all the patching. Both factors played a big role in its downfall.

 

[metroid1117]

ike is like an exaggerated marth. whatever marth has that's good, ike has better; whatever marth has that's bad, ike has worse.
- Unlike Marth, Ike doesn't have a problem with killing at high %s.

now let's look at what ike has that's good.
•good grab range
- According to MachGo's Database, Ike has the 9th best standing grab range (better than Sheik), but is tied with Fox for the 7th worst pivot grab range.
•decent throws
- Ike’s throws are better than decent; they’re not amazing, but they’re very good. At low %s, UThrow leads to UAir, BAir, or reverse BAir; FThrow and BThrow, depending on DI, lead into dash attack, QD -> JC grab, QD -> turnaround BAir, or QD -> FAir; and DThrow can lead to either nasty traps on platforms if you throw your opponent with your back towards the center of the platform and they can’t get off (turnaround FSmash or USmash) or walk-off FAir if your back is to the edge of the stage/platform and they try DI’ing off. (DThrow -> FTilt/UTilt/BAir/regrab only work if your opponent doesn’t know to DI toward Ike’s back, so it’s unreliable at high levels of play.)
•good combo potential
- Ike’s throw combos are listed above. NAir combos into UTilt and regrab at low %s while both NAir and UTilt combo into reverse BAir at low-mid %s (around 30%). Reverse BAir combos into FAir, dash attack, UTilt (at very low %s), and QD -> stuff. At higher %s, FAir can combo into itself if your opponent tries to DI inwards to survive. Also, Ike can DAir -> FSmash/USmash grounded opponents similar to how Falcon can stomp -> knee; DAir -> FSmash is almost a sure kill after 60%.
•great edgeguarding ability
- With Ike’s DTilt, FAir, QD walljump -> FAir, edgehopped BAir, DAir, FSmash, reverse USmash, and Eruption (at high %s), I think that Ike is a better edgeguarder than Marth.
•huge disjoints!!
•tons of killing power and kill moves (fair, bair, uair, dair, fmash, usmash, dsmash, uthrow at higher %'s, ftilt... the list goes on)
- If Ike has to kill with UThrow, then he’s doing something wrong. The rest of the list, however, is good. Eruption can also kill above 100%, especially if Ike uses the SAF to get past aerial floaty opponents who are trying to juggle him.
•relatively safe recovery
•kind of heavy
- Ike is the 6th heaviest character in Demo 2.1; he's very fat.
•suprising mobility
- Combined with QD -> wavedash and the 6th fastest running jump air speed, Ike is surprisingly fast.
•good wavedash
- I disagree with this. Ike’s wavedash is tied for 15th in terms of distance and his 5-frame jumpsquat makes him tied for 16th in terms of jumpsquat speed. Both make his wavedash relatively slow on start-up and short.
•usually safe on shield
- Ike’s attacks have .5 hitlag on shield (while his opponents have standard shield stun). Kirk made another find in this post:

I call shenanigans! (kind of)

Just looked through a few more, namely Bowser, CFalcon, DK, Falco, Fox, Ganon, Link, Marth and Sonic.

The only attacks that had less hitlag(better advantage) were Link's Bair and Bowser's Dtilt and Dsmash. Ganon has more hitlag on his smashes, as does Bowser on his Fsmash. Oh, and of course the PAWNCHES had more hitlag. Everything else was straight up 100%.

...not that I'm arguing or anything! Really! Of course its not exclusive to Ike, but he is a major exception. Not that I'm complaining...really!

I was curious...


...really!

•has the advantage of being new so no one knows his disadvantages as well
•recovery allows him to possibly stall indefinitely
- If you Aether onto the edge 5 times without touching the ground, Ike cannot grab the edge for a 6th time. He cannot wall-jump stall indefinitely, either.

now the bad
•no projectiles
•aerials have some noticeable startup lag
•because of the above, he's more susceptible to projectiles than marf because he can't swat stuff away
•cripples under pressure
•unreliable horizontal recovery
- Assuming the Ike has good DI, QD actually isn’t a bad option. It charges up quickly, travels quickly, has little lag, can wall-jump for additional options, but most importantly, Ike can throw out QD attack to shorten it while warding off edgeguarders. You don’t go into freefall if you hit something with QD attack either, so you can QD attack projectiles like Link’s bombs or Peach’s turnips and still up+B afterwards.
•bad oos options
•no one likes him so people will want to learn how to beat him first our of all the buffed newcomers lol

k guis beat him

My responses are in red.

i'm trying to develop an ike counter strategy
in order for this to go well
i have to ask metroid to stop sandbagging in friendlies
just watched a video
you better start playing as gay as you can
or direct me to a more homosexually inclined ike to study
sincerely yours

I’m going to play as efficiently and “lame” as possible in Saturday’s tournament. In the meantime, you should watch Vro’s Ike.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I have to admit I don't have much Ike experience, especially against good Ike's, so I'll just talk about this from a general point of view.

Average human reaction time is like 13-14 frames, a 16 frame move would leave you like 2 frames to do something about it.
I don't think most characters have options that they could go to on reaction to a fair.
Considering that, it seems doing something about it will almost always be because you expected the move due to spacing, patterns or whatever, not cause you were standing there and reacted to the startup.

This is entirely exaggerestimating™. Several parts are both false and fallacious. "Average reaction time is like 13-14 frames" is by itself wrong, as average human reaction time is no more than 13 frames (.215 seconds). Saying a number is "like" another under or overvalues the original number, depending on the desired argument.

As an example, 48% is like 50%, so it's basically half, which is absolutely and entirely incorrect.

Even if we use the incorrect number of 14 frames, the time "to do something about it" is not "like 2" frames, but instead "exactly 3." Reaction time is based not by recognition of a change, but by the time to interpret it and react accordingly. In reaction timing tests, the benchmark is set based on the successful input, a mouse click, for example of most online reaction time tests, in reaction to the stimulus, not the brain's recognition of the stimulus by itself. Therefore you have the frame on which "reaction" takes place + whatever extra frames the move has for start up, which for 14 frames is 3. Couple this with the average being 13 frames, it is 4.

So far you have underestimated the time to react by half the actual amount simply by exaggerating and overgeneralizing the numbers using "like."

13 is "average" reaction time. Average, meaning there are sample points on either side of the number. So yes, if you have average or worse reaction time as a human being in general, it is harder than easymode to react to a frame 16 move.


So let's pretend people who go into competitive video gaming tend to be people with, you know, good reaction time. Not great, good. We don't all get to be blessed with Taj's 8-9 frame inputs, and that's fine. But there are still a largely reasonable amount of people with 11 and 12 frame reactions. Let's exaggerestimate™ this by only looking at the number that supports our argument better. 11 Frame reaction time means that with merely above average reaction time you have 6 frames to do something about it. Three times as long as your original, logically and factually, incorrect statement.

 

[cannedbread]

thanks for the well constructed reply metroid (:

 

[ph00tbag]

Exaggerestimating is now my new favorite word.

**** you for trademarking it, Kink Link.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Nah it's still pending because I also have "Hypergeneralising" as a possible candidate to describe the phenomenon.

 

[SpiderMad]

Nah it's still pending because I also have "Hypergeneralising" as a possible candidate to describe the phenomenon.

No you own the Exaggerestimating, 1 google result besides your own, compared to 180 for the hypergen.


Really wish I could get the time off for the Saturday Tournament, reading the thread of it there's Kirk and MattDotZeb and now Spoon here just posted that he's going. Oh well.

Metroid , there's one match where I did an aerial which hit your shield and then i feel off ledge canceling it and then did a cool fair (it too hit your shield so i must of fell off with a reverse bair) I thought it was on FD so I watched all of the FD matches on my SD card I think but didn't see it, any clue what character/stage it might of been on? I might of forgotten to save it. I watched the replays you recorded (which was a ton wow lol) and I didn't see it in any of them either.

 

[joY]

I also have "Hypergeneralising" as a possible candidate to describe the phenomenon.

I feel like overgeneralizing has that covered, haha.

You could always just be more descriptive, too; for example: That is a gross over-simplification of the truth. Or something. I dunno.

 

[Kink-Link5]

It's taking already non-precise measurements or pieces of statistical information and further rounding them, essentially.

I love the example of .44444449

If we round this number to the 7th significant figure, we get .4444445.

Now we'll round that less precise number again, to the 6th figure. .444445

And so on, we eventually round to .5, just by manipulating the precision of our number. Had we just rounded to the first significant figure in the first place, it would be .4.

Other examples of the phenomenon are things like "85% is close to 90%, which is basically 100%," or, as NeoZ exemplified, using "ballpark ranges" and only looking at of the most extreme numbers in the ballpark in regards to relevance. Averages are not "like" a number and they certainly aren't "somewhere in between" two. They are a particular number and estimating them, then using that estimate as if it were factual to prove a point is entirely wrong.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Heck, for all we know, Lucas could be overpowered, and no one is using him, so how are we supposed to know?

Actually my friend picked him up, and he's just naturally good with him, kinda pisses me off haha:

Zelda vs Lucas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZgSnc0Cfzo&feature=youtu.be

And what are the Ike players doing? They're practicing, they're getting better, they're getting more experience in match-ups. It's no wonder they're doing well; they're actually trying to get good at the game! We're simply not going to reward the prior kind of behavior, else any and all characters that people don't like fighting against will be subject to nerfing. Sorry. Play the game. Get better. Develop the metagame. If changes are needed they will happen when it's apparent to us that they are necessary, and not a moment sooner.

I wish more people would play Link :/

Also I don't think Ike needs nerfs

 

[Mr.Pickle]

So for the sake of conversation, what in this game do you find yourself saying that you disagree with, directed to anyone.

Edit- Well nerf is the wrong way to describe what I think Ike needs, I feel he needs a slight reworking, which is kinda funny cause I tried so hard to accept the way he is and thought he was fine, but opinions change over time. What makes you think he is fine anyway? (serious question, not being snide lol)

 

[Kink-Link5]

I think Ike is competitively fine but atrociously designed, personally, like Demo1 Sonic or any version of Zelda forever.


A better initial dash, along with a faster OoS option and/or a faster/different nair are the only changes I really want for the guy.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As an aside, my edgeguard idea against Ike doesn't work. A shame.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I missed this gem.

Honestly my only gripe with Ike is how good he is for how fairly simple and easy he is to use. His huge aerials are a huge asset to anyone that can l-cancel. Most of his attacks or combos will knock you off stage easily where his edgeguarding is braindead simple.

I don't think he is godly but he feels fraudulent when I have to put in a ton more effort into weaving and baiting around his huge hitboxes which lead to fairly easy combos/edgeguards.

Fraudulent is my hotword to describe everything about Ike, mostly because of how ridiculously polarising he is. Your character either has tools to combat one thing or another of his, or they have no really effective way to get around one thing of his, mostly things like his recovery, which is almost, by itself, a tool to determine his good and bad matchups.

"Can you get through Ike's Up-B?"
->Yes
No

"Get him off stage once lololol"

Yes
->No

"****er lives to 160, gg"

 

[SpiderMad]

A better initial dash, along with a faster OoS option and/or a faster/different nair are the only changes I really want for the guy.

his DD length being a little short is fine. He's got OOS D-smash or Up Air/Bair, but more so D-smash. His nair is awesome, last time I played though I wasn't having a good nair day for some reason.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Why and when would D-smashing after a shield drop be profitable?

 

[metroid1117]

critique my marth please it will be much appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egguhJ8wXsU
this match is vs k9's ness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaARENPCvc0&feature=relmfu
this match is vs kiraflax's charizard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeiivHXl5iM&feature=related
kiraflax challenged me to a MM after

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydL-Eizhxb0&feature=relmfu
vs k9 in loser's finals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-D34FA5_Kk&feature=plcp
vs axe in winner's finals

Sorry for missing this earlier. If you want character-specific critique, you should ask around at the Marth Video Discussion Thread on SmashMods. Judging by how you performed and got to Winner's Finals against Axe though, you have a solid Marth; I don't know how helpful the criticism you'll get will be since you're already advanced.

 

[SpiderMad]

The Ike frame thread doesn't seem to have frame data for d-smash yet, so I might get it myself sometime(or you could I've seen you do it). But it's really fast so CC/OOS are both good. Then if the person is really close like they did a improperly spaced aerial, and are known to spot dodge/roll after it, I think you can go with doing the 2nd hit of d-smash to hit the person closely in-front of you after a spot dodge or if they roll behind you it'll hit'em. That's really more theory though besides it just being a great and fast move that is a better option than grab OOS if your facing away but close to the end of the stage to killem real easy- especially if they try to CC it, the CC will either fail and then they will die from it's gimping angle of a hit, or manage to succesfully CC it which brings them behind Ike and gives you ample time to decide to do the 2nd hit which will hit them as well.

 

[Kink-Link5]

D-smash start, before the charge loop, is 6? frames, and the attack after is on frame 8 of the animation, so 14 total I think, not accounting for the shield drop. Grab just seems like a better option overall since he gets easy DI reads into either an aerial or dash attack off any grab.

 

[SpiderMad]

D-smash start, before the charge loop, is 6? frames, and the attack after is on frame 8 of the animation, so 14 total I think, not accounting for the shield drop. Grab just seems like a better option overall since he gets easy DI reads into either an aerial or dash attack off any grab.

Holy **** 6? Okay screw you guys why is this debatable lol. Oh wait what is it 6 or 8 that it comes out? Either way lol. Grab/Jab are faster but the range and the aforementioned stuff is a solid option past being sure you'll get something off the grab, especially if you're near the edge for an instant kill for most characters.

Other stuff:

Ike flaws= He dies if he's hit in a weird angle, and doesn't have any aerial that's like a Peach Nair quicky.

Play/Main Lucas Reflex.

 

[Strong Badam]

Dsmash comes out frame 14.