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Project M Social Thread
- Thread starter Project M
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Quick thing @ drinkingfood: No ganon?!?!? U think Pikachu is better than Ganon? The only way I could see that is the QAC addition from Brawl giving him an infinite or making him approach so much better. Ganon is what, at least the same if not better than he was in Melee, especially look at his Dthrow CG being more obnoxious. Ganon was top 10 in Melee, he's a pretty easy top 10 in this game as of right now imo. It's not "impossible" to see Pika as top 10, but someone like Ganon or Peach IMO I think have a much better shot at that title unless his MU spread vastly improved with QAC or something.
Some in order, some not:
Fox
Falco
Jiggs
I think that's top 3. Marth and Shiek feel slightly nerfed (Marth tipper range does not match up to Melee at least on some crucial moves, Shiek obv had changes) so I think they are automatically out of the running for that. Wolf feels like he has the worst laser out of the spacies, and probably a harder overall time killing than the other 2 as well. No one else comes close to top 3 besides arguably Ike or Ganon if you are on point with Dthrow imo.
Ike/Wolf/Ganon/Lucario/Shiek or Shielda/Falcon/Marth/Mario
Maybe Peach thrown in there somewhere, I have no idea about her. You just don't see Peach played that often, and gut instinct tells me her MU's with the new characters minus Sonic don't sound that great. I don't see Ike struggling to go even or losing to her, Lucario as well. She PROBABLY gives Sonic a really hard time if played well due to Dsmash and Float Cancel aerials eating away priority wise. She may be better than Mario, Mario does feel really nice right now (one of my favorite characters balance wise hands down, and playstyle wise he's also a blast). She's close, and would have been instant top 10 without some of these new characters hogging spots.
Top 10 has got a lot of competition, but certain characters don't feel solid enough to challenge that. I don't see Sonic DK Pit or people in that area of potential ever making it there, even if played on point.
Some in order, some not:
Fox
Falco
Jiggs
I think that's top 3. Marth and Shiek feel slightly nerfed (Marth tipper range does not match up to Melee at least on some crucial moves, Shiek obv had changes) so I think they are automatically out of the running for that. Wolf feels like he has the worst laser out of the spacies, and probably a harder overall time killing than the other 2 as well. No one else comes close to top 3 besides arguably Ike or Ganon if you are on point with Dthrow imo.
Ike/Wolf/Ganon/Lucario/Shiek or Shielda/Falcon/Marth/Mario
Maybe Peach thrown in there somewhere, I have no idea about her. You just don't see Peach played that often, and gut instinct tells me her MU's with the new characters minus Sonic don't sound that great. I don't see Ike struggling to go even or losing to her, Lucario as well. She PROBABLY gives Sonic a really hard time if played well due to Dsmash and Float Cancel aerials eating away priority wise. She may be better than Mario, Mario does feel really nice right now (one of my favorite characters balance wise hands down, and playstyle wise he's also a blast). She's close, and would have been instant top 10 without some of these new characters hogging spots.
Top 10 has got a lot of competition, but certain characters don't feel solid enough to challenge that. I don't see Sonic DK Pit or people in that area of potential ever making it there, even if played on point.
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DK is not top 10.
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I'm picking up Ike btw.
for Falco
for Falco
I saw your stuff vs Falco on stream. That MU for DK sounds painful even if you could PS lasers consistently. As someone who likes to toy around with DK, I feel the pain of the Pew Pew brother. You and Ripple both had to deal with Falco
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
I'm pretty sure marth's range is exactly the same... Ask a PMBR member in here or something. As for Pikachu, QAC was the tipping point. I was actually debating between him and Ganon. I just feel QAC has a huge amount of unexplored potential and, as I said, that is more of a prediction tier list than a current one. Which is also a reason I didn't take Ganon's improved CG into consideration- PMBR plans to fix gameplay issues that make it better than its melee counterpart.
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i beat sfat 2-0 in PM, lol. but sfat rarely lasers (he prefers to enjoy playing), so it wasn't that hard. it was like fighting fox basically. yakal lasers more than any falco i've ever played
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ike is freaking stupid good, holy ****... lol. I understand what he's capable of but it's so gay he can combo you across a HUGE stage even with good DI, the hell is that!?
No not his range, I mean his Tipper size. The most prominent, possibly only example being Fsmash unless I'm just really bad at judging the relative size compared to Melee. It feels harder to tipper with that than Melee: granted the Melee tipper range was a bit silly but it feels a bit smaller. I know the tipper got harder to hit with during the transition to Brawl, idk if that was fully reverted or not. Either way, I don't think he can challenge top 3 for a spot, same with Shiek.
(If someone from PMBR/develop could confirm that about Marth that would be great. I'm pretty sure I don't have a nitpicky and blatantly wrong "Dreamland is not the same size" kind of feeling about this LOL but who knows)
^^^ The lasers were just everywhere. Ike for Falco sounds good I approve.
Edit:
That's also what I was thinking when you were talking about "down the road" with general changes like that. That's fair. I feel like Ganon with this current CG capability is def an edge over Pika, even with QAC accounted for, but down the road I can see that being different definitely.
GRAB HIM KAGE
I love you but you need to Dthrow gay people a bit more, the current Ganon gets a lot from grabbing people these days. It's double edged because his grab range feels tiny, but if you're actually in a position to punish with grab with this big guy, you gotta go for it man. Even Ike eats a fattie once grabbed by the king lol.
Actual Ike related: figuring out what to do vs him is a bit scary. DI into him leads to easier combos, while DI away from him even at low % can lead to very dangerous offstage scenarios. If I'm Falcon and eat a Fair or Ftilt or something, I don't want to fly offstage because that's a near death sentence. That makes things really predictable if your best option is to probably DI towards or no DI and just eat damage/try not to outright die. It's kinda like that with Marth, but DI away from a lot of his Combo's either gets you out or forces the offstage Dair/Fsmash tipper stuff, where as Ike can yeah keep going with Fair or heavily pressure you if you land offstage
PGH Carroll
Smash Master
Yakal mains lasers.. its unreal
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marth is melee marth
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
@Divinokave
Have you considered actually attacking him
And not letting him attack you
In less stupid terms, just put pressure on Ike and he'll crack. Of course everything else about him except his recovery is good- that's what makes a good character. The spaces were comboed easily, and we're really light and susceptible to low angle knockbacks, but pretty much everything else about them was good (except for the distance on Falco's recovery).
Ike just happens to be easy to combo, easy to pressure, susceptible to projectile spam, and has a weak recovery when there aren't walls, while most everything else is good or easily covered by his strengths. The difference is that you're not used to Ike like you are Fox and Falco.
Have you considered actually attacking him
And not letting him attack you
In less stupid terms, just put pressure on Ike and he'll crack. Of course everything else about him except his recovery is good- that's what makes a good character. The spaces were comboed easily, and we're really light and susceptible to low angle knockbacks, but pretty much everything else about them was good (except for the distance on Falco's recovery).
Ike just happens to be easy to combo, easy to pressure, susceptible to projectile spam, and has a weak recovery when there aren't walls, while most everything else is good or easily covered by his strengths. The difference is that you're not used to Ike like you are Fox and Falco.
Is his Fsmash tipper size the same/roughly? It feels off... The move itself general hitbox and lunge wise looks the same. OH WELL
I'd do that with Wario if he was capable of not being a fudge pop.
The pressure thing vs Ike is true, but the characters that really exploit that are more "in your face" to begin with than Ganon. Fox Falco with Shine pressure and safe approaches, Shiek possibly just sitting near him being Shiek, etc. Ganon vs Ike looks quite doable, but the pressure note is really for characters that are super in his face. Not Ganon Marth etc. Some of the characters that can do that also have his range to worry about though, Falcon Sonic being an example imo.
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yeah, it's the same
1. Fox - For all the buffs other characters have gotten, nothing has been done to mitigate what makes Fox effective. He is the best character in the demo by an absurd margin. I'm kinda appalled by how little anyone is talking about it. After here, I'm not positive on order, but there are few characters I'd place in the top ten outside of these.
2. Jigglypuff - Similar to Fox. Nothing that made puff strong has been lost. There are no new options or characters that mitigate her strengths, so I can't really argue that she has in any way gotten worse.
3. Pit - Aside from low KO power, I struggle to think of an actual weakness this character has, and even his low KO power is balanced out by absurd gimping options, and the fact that he never has to engage on his opponent's terms, not even against Falco. His side B gives him crazy mobility from any where in the game, so you can't really zone him into a bad spot. The worst position he can be in is a 50/50.
4. Falco - Falco didn't get worse from the perspective of his own design, but the competition got a lot better. There are a lot of new options and characters that I can't help but feel were designed specifically to counter Falco's lasers at the precise distances where they control opponents most effectively.
5. Peach - Peach didn't really get better as far as her own design, but Sheik and Marth got worse, for sure.
6. Sheik - Losing NTSC dthrow hurts. Mow isn't wrong when he says this. Overall, I think the game is better for it, but Sheik suffers a lot from really not having a whole lot of superb options out of grab now. She's still a stellar character in the neutral game, but all of her grab set-ups just don't boot her anything anymore, and she's kind of stuck zoning with fair and needles.
7. Lucario - While Lucario suffers from mobility problems, once he's in, it's really kind of stupid how good he is. (Full disclosure, I think Lucario's design is bad, and ****s all over the "because Melee" design philosophy.) If you don't think Lucario has absurd, stupid options on hit, go watch Leffen play for five minutes, then come back once you're done vomiting.
8. Marth - Marth is the same, and many of his competitors are better at working around his strengths and abusing his weaknesses.
9. Lucas - I could probably have put Lucas even higher, here, but I'm not really sure where he stands. Suffice to say, demo 2.1 Lucas is crazy good. PK Freeze locks opponents down in relative safety almost as well as Falco's lasers. Then, Lucas's nair, combined with PSI Magnet shenanigans, keeps his opponent in either a state of blocking or getting hit. He has really good carry combos, and all sorts of ways to control his opponent once he's gotten the hit off. He suffers from the fact that he can't force his opponent's approach at all, but he also has to outplay his opponent to get easy KOs (otherwise he doesn't kill till 150%). Lucas has potential. I think most players overlook him.
10. Falcon - Falcon may also be higher. He's strictly speaking stronger than he was in Melee, and he was the best character that couldn't win in that game. There are a couple other characters that may fit in this spot, better, though. In particular: Ike, Toon Link, Game and Watch, Mario, Ness, Pikachu and Sonic. It starts to get hazier for me at this point.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Why would I vomit from watching Leffen play lucario. I'm a combo *****, Falcon and Falco are two of my favorite characters to watch in melee. Having a character with amazing guaranteed short combos that easily pile into larger groups of combos through DI reads to make epic 0-to-death combos from time to time are like a dream come true to me.
Red responses.
Ganon not being in your top 10 is unacceptable, or on the same short list as the legendary "Ness G^W TL" lol. I will just assume you are tired
Ike also for top 10 clearly
I'm fairly certain Pit should beat Falco. You have to understand that with auto-glide, and the ability to perform any of his aerials out of glide, most generally accepted "safe" spacings become worthless against Pit. Fox beats him, obviously, but of the other character, I can only think that Falcon may be able to go toe to toe with him on his own terms.
Ganondorf lost a solid combo move and gained a predictable command dash grab that leads to a fairly easy to abuse mix-up. I don't see how that makes him better. Ganon is not top ten material. For the same reason Ike is not top ten material. Ike just has more options to make his command dash difficult to punish, which is why he made my shortlist.
Lucas is almost as fast on the ground as Fox, has better control in the air, has better pressure aerials, and a "shine" that is safer on block and easier to abuse as a "double shine." He can turn it around after a cross-up to make his nair even safer, not to mention all of his DJC tricksies. He pretty much has Falco's laser, but he doesn't have to commit to as much air time to get it out. He's no top tier, but I can't think of a single character as overwhelming in the neutral game as he is.
Ganondorf lost a solid combo move and gained a predictable command dash grab that leads to a fairly easy to abuse mix-up. I don't see how that makes him better. Ganon is not top ten material. For the same reason Ike is not top ten material. Ike just has more options to make his command dash difficult to punish, which is why he made my shortlist.
Lucas is almost as fast on the ground as Fox, has better control in the air, has better pressure aerials, and a "shine" that is safer on block and easier to abuse as a "double shine." He can turn it around after a cross-up to make his nair even safer, not to mention all of his DJC tricksies. He pretty much has Falco's laser, but he doesn't have to commit to as much air time to get it out. He's no top tier, but I can't think of a single character as overwhelming in the neutral game as he is.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Since you are an expert in Ganon vs Ike I think you should explain to us how Ganon puts pressure on Ike who is generally a better version of ganon with safer moves and greater range. What are you going to do? Fair? against his fair? Go for a **** choke? Warlock kick? how does ganon get in safely? It's surely not the same way he gets in against marth simply because Ike closes distance faster that Marth and his sword is a much stronger and much more effective tool when it comes to creating a wall. So....you kinda have to wait on Ike which sort of ****s some characters in the end.
Ike's core problem on stage is he can't deal with pressure and that's wonderful but what do characters with really short range and lack of frame advantageous pressuring moves do? I can tell you what will happen with Ike. He's not the best in the game but he's going to become "the guardian of S-tier" like Sheik was in melee. Meaning you draw a line and everyone above him are characters that can pressure him, break him, combo into finish him and everyone else will just get beat by him because they can't do that. Sort of throws a monkey wrench in the everyone is viable goal imo...but whatever Ike sucks so I'm tired of talking about him..
I'm not sure what to make of this honestly.
you were looking good until I read #3. There is no chance in hell that Pit is number 3 in the game.
The fact that you are missing link, Ganon, Sonic from this list and yet you have Lucario, Lucas, and Pit on it is also somewhat crazy...I'm just not sure how to react to this. Marth being above Falcon is probably not the case anymore. Falcon was already starting to push past him in melee and recent results will show you Marth is just not a top contender anymore in melee. Now, in Project M where his peers are buffed and everyone below him is buffed and the new characters are at least as good as him or better...he's sort of what I call "****ed tier" I don't think he's top 10 or 15 tbh.
and...no Ike? really?
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Ganon's side b also works as a dangerous to challenge recovery mix-up, a stock trader, a tech chase forcer when grounded and an auto-combo starter on non-FFers (forces techchase for them) when started in the air. It's definitely way better than his old one.
^ this is unrelated to this v
@archangel
Where in that post does is say I was talking about the Ganon-Ike matchup. Like really. Even I don't know and I double checked. Clearly you got something out of my post that even I wasn't trying to put in there. Namely that I was saying anything about the Ganon-Ike matchup.
I was talking about the other half of the cast with even decent pressure.
You know, the ones that are good
^ this is unrelated to this v
@archangel
Where in that post does is say I was talking about the Ganon-Ike matchup. Like really. Even I don't know and I double checked. Clearly you got something out of my post that even I wasn't trying to put in there. Namely that I was saying anything about the Ganon-Ike matchup.
I was talking about the other half of the cast with even decent pressure.
You know, the ones that are good
Archangel
Smash Hero
oh I know all of this but that's not what I'm asking. I was asking how do you apply pressure with Ganon vs an Ike that is not a lvl 9 CPU and has Ganon experience enough to know what side-b can do? Or, are you saying side-B is the answer and you should spam it vs Ike?
Divinokage
Smash Legend
You can't really pressure Ike with Ganon, he has the speed of Falcon with the range of Marth and a greater power than Ganon.. it's stupid. It's true that I should dthrow Ike but landing the mix-up in the first place to setup a grab isn't easy at all. As soon as Ganon is even remotely close to Ike, he's already gone.. if anyone of you played Vro, you would understand, he's freaking fast man.. and he plays very well, he knows how to dodge the tricks.
Ganon vs Marth in P:M is clearly Ganon advantage now btw, Marth basically lost the guaranteed edgeguard vs Ganon and that hurts him a lot... and to say quickly Ganon can kill stuff even faster in general.. so ya.. Idk to me he's freaking awesome still even now I believe he's top tier.
To me the top tiers atm, are Jiggs, Ike, Ganon, Fox, Falco. Perhaps even Sonic, I'm not sure about him though, I can only base this one off results.
Ganon vs Marth in P:M is clearly Ganon advantage now btw, Marth basically lost the guaranteed edgeguard vs Ganon and that hurts him a lot... and to say quickly Ganon can kill stuff even faster in general.. so ya.. Idk to me he's freaking awesome still even now I believe he's top tier.
To me the top tiers atm, are Jiggs, Ike, Ganon, Fox, Falco. Perhaps even Sonic, I'm not sure about him though, I can only base this one off results.
I liked his old one because you could Fair out of it, and it set people ablaze in glorious purple flames.
"The fact that you are missing link, Ganon, Sonic from this list and yet you have Lucario, Lucas, and Pit on it is also somewhat crazy...I'm just not sure how to react to this. Marth being above Falcon is probably not the case anymore. Falcon was already starting to push past him in melee and recent results will show you Marth is just not a top contender anymore in melee. Now, in Project M where his peers are buffed and everyone below him is buffed and the new characters are at least as good as him or better...he's sort of what I call "****ed tier" I don't think he's top 10 or 15 tbh."
Link? He wouldn't have made the list anyways. Ganon over Lucas and that stuff yeah though.
Marth is NOT that bad dawg. Do you know who's around top 15? People like DK. Marth is not in that area lol. You could easily debate him having a low top 10 spot, but placing him outside of top 10 either means you're evaluating Mario Lucas Sonic etc higher than him, or you are way off.
Falcon is debatable too, for being over Marth. I think Marth does better vs just about every new character. He does better vs Sonic Lucario Lucas and Ike hands down. Pit is debatable, Wario too, but then you're moving into not very strong contenders anyways.
Kage: Oh trust me bro, I know. I don't go Ganon vs Ike, I go Fox because of how gay Shine is to the character. That's my answer lmfao. IF you can grab him, oh it hurts bad. Literally the only aspect of the matchup besides stomping his recovery options that keeps me sane having to do Ganon vs Ike lol.
"The fact that you are missing link, Ganon, Sonic from this list and yet you have Lucario, Lucas, and Pit on it is also somewhat crazy...I'm just not sure how to react to this. Marth being above Falcon is probably not the case anymore. Falcon was already starting to push past him in melee and recent results will show you Marth is just not a top contender anymore in melee. Now, in Project M where his peers are buffed and everyone below him is buffed and the new characters are at least as good as him or better...he's sort of what I call "****ed tier" I don't think he's top 10 or 15 tbh."
Link? He wouldn't have made the list anyways. Ganon over Lucas and that stuff yeah though.
Marth is NOT that bad dawg. Do you know who's around top 15? People like DK. Marth is not in that area lol. You could easily debate him having a low top 10 spot, but placing him outside of top 10 either means you're evaluating Mario Lucas Sonic etc higher than him, or you are way off.
Falcon is debatable too, for being over Marth. I think Marth does better vs just about every new character. He does better vs Sonic Lucario Lucas and Ike hands down. Pit is debatable, Wario too, but then you're moving into not very strong contenders anyways.
Kage: Oh trust me bro, I know. I don't go Ganon vs Ike, I go Fox because of how gay Shine is to the character. That's my answer lmfao. IF you can grab him, oh it hurts bad. Literally the only aspect of the matchup besides stomping his recovery options that keeps me sane having to do Ganon vs Ike lol.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Holy **** that's not what I'm saying. For ****'s sake it didn't save my edit to that post...
EDIT: fix'd
EDIT: fix'd
What are peoples thoughts on links viability? My friends think he's one of the best in the game from playing with me, but I understand this just as limited exposure, and they play DK and luigi lol so we're not going off much.
On that note, I also have not seen any link play how I think he should be played or do any of the tricks that I do(such as leaving bombs on platforms at random times for random instant throw agt movements, returning rang set-ups, double bomb into rang fair combos, z-drop bomb zair to hit the bomb, z-drop instant throw agt and more) so I'm not sure how many people even play link extensively or if any top players play him.
On that note, I also have not seen any link play how I think he should be played or do any of the tricks that I do(such as leaving bombs on platforms at random times for random instant throw agt movements, returning rang set-ups, double bomb into rang fair combos, z-drop bomb zair to hit the bomb, z-drop instant throw agt and more) so I'm not sure how many people even play link extensively or if any top players play him.
-Chad-
Slackerator
link seems good, seems to suffer vs chars that can get in tho
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I think Mario is pretty beastly too. I mean yours Chad. <3
There's no strong case for Link being top 10 imo. That's the shorthand impression I've had of Link. He has potential with AGT, but vs the more dominant characters it won't salvage him from his other shortcomings.
CHAD MARIO FOR PREZ
CHAD MARIO FOR PREZ
-Chad-
Slackerator
mario seems really good lol i shoulda played him more
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ya he seems to have really great setups to shut down opponents from a close range, it's so damn scary being close to Mario in P:M. It's like he has great frame traps for anyone that tries anything OOS for example and his combos are great too.
metroid1117
Smash Master
I'm sorry for saying this, but I thought the above post, especially the top portion, was borderline-offensive towards Kage and didn't show him the respect he deserves. Kage is a national-caliber player that has competed against and beat many players who are highly regarded in both the Melee and Project M community. In my opinion, putting what has been known since Demo 2.0 came out "in less stupid terms" is almost insulting, especially when coming from someone who has no tournament results to back his or her theory crafting. Props to Kage for responding to your post without any trace of hostility towards what I perceive as a lack of respect.
(Yes, it is sort of elitist to have that mentality but, quite frankly, I'm getting tired of hearing all the claims that go "just do X, Y, and Z to beat Ike" when people as respected as Kage have trouble against him. It's really not that simple. There are some bad Ike players but there are some really good ones like Vro and Eli, I wish people would form opinions after playing a good Ike instead of just sitting back and theory-crafting.)
By the way, Kage is not kidding when he says Ike can combo you across a huge stage.
Onomanic
Heaven Piercer
Link's menagerie of techniques and combos presents a lot of potential. He has access to a decent amount of Brawl ATs coupled with the ability to combo like he did in Melee, and even more so thanks to buffed Usmash and Dsmash. He is definitely tournament viable and I know JCz picks him as a CP to Ike, despite his performance at FC against Vro (he definitely choked, I know JCz is pretty good with Link).
Hylian is definitely correct about nair and jab. These are quick attacks that can help Link out of some unsavory situations and it is indeed what helps him out against quicker characters. Combine that with a very solid projectile game and Zair, which is quicker than ever might I add, and Link is looking great. It's a shame no one is representing him in tournaments however. I'd like to see someone like Lord HDL play with him or maybe Legan. Or even better, GERM, who still plays apparently.
Hylian is definitely correct about nair and jab. These are quick attacks that can help Link out of some unsavory situations and it is indeed what helps him out against quicker characters. Combine that with a very solid projectile game and Zair, which is quicker than ever might I add, and Link is looking great. It's a shame no one is representing him in tournaments however. I'd like to see someone like Lord HDL play with him or maybe Legan. Or even better, GERM, who still plays apparently.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Under the obvious top 6 or 7 characters I'd say Link has a pretty good argument for one of the remaining bottom 3 spots along side Tink and a few people actually.
Marth is not that bad but he's not that good either which is why I put him at "****ed tier". He won't get buffs but people below him will, people above him will remain above him. This means he's ****ed. Still fun to play though.
Characters I see as overall better suited for victory in Project M.
Fox
Falco
Sheik
Ike
Puff
Ganon
Lucario
Falcon
Tink
Sonic
Wolf
Peach
Bowser
Zelda
Mario
^ In no particular order but overall they seem better suited to compete than him so next in line you have his new peers. Lucas, Link, Wario, Pikachu, Pit, Snake, ROB, Luigi,DDD, and DK. Some of which Marth is better than overall so he's possibly in the top 15, at least in the top 20 but not in the top 10. He's at least clearly above, Zard, Ness, and Gaymanwatch.
I have to say this DrinkingFoods guy is quite a character.....I think I'd like to play a 1,000 MM against him some day. I could use the money.
@ the link you posted.....what the ****...
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Perhaps it works more efficiently vs heavy characters but still, Metroid pretty much showed exactly that. Ike's side-B = He can still combo you while you are still stunned from his last attack from very far away, that's huge for him. His recovery is pretty good too, I found it difficult to edgeguard him mainly because of the side-B again.. but I think I would need to play this more to really understand the limitations if he really has one.. I mean for his recovery. I thought maybe you can simply intercept the side-B with your body but that seems incredibly risky. And for Ike to be able to recover upwards from being at the bottom of a stage seems a little broken, I don't think that should be available for any character to do.
-Chad-
Slackerator
what are ike's weaknesses
Onomanic
Heaven Piercer
Reliability on stages for his recovery and can be shut down by characters with a strong enough projectile game. He's also very combo-able and is susceptible to Fox's shine combos
Archangel
Smash Hero
Basically his weaknesses are that he can be hit again after he's been hit already. He can only roll left, right, or spot-dodge, or shield-grab if he's being pressured, On a stage with no walls you have to pay attention to how you DI because he has no side-b safety net but still has a very good, very difficult to edgeguard up-B but overall his recovery is less silly on walled stages....
a better question to ask would be what are Ike's Strengths.
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