cannedbread
Smash Lord
no items ike only draculas castle
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Project M Social Thread
- Thread starter Project M
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Crispy4001
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2007
- Messages
- 730
We don't exactly have the wisdom of time here. A character like PM Ike being high tier is already foreign to Smash as it is - we shouldn't be drawing too many assumptions. But being on competitive footing with Melee higher tiers is what they were aiming for. With Ike, and with everyone really.
For now, I think it's an affirmation to the PM developers that he's passed an initial stress test with flying colors. We have a good deal more insight about him competitively now.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Thats cool really it is...the problem is what to do about the other characters so that they are as viable competitively? Especially with better ike's than Vro that will be popping up.
It is safe to assume that if better Ike's than Vro will be popping up, then better [insert character here]'s will be popping up too.
It just takes time.
PGH Carroll
Smash Master
Ban Ike
10deadhookers
10deadhookers
Life
Smash Hero
This reminds me of when Brawl was new and people thought Ike was OP
Granted, he's probably high tier now, but theoretically so is everyone else.
On another note, ban MK.
Granted, he's probably high tier now, but theoretically so is everyone else.
On another note, ban MK.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Give them appropriate buffs where needed.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
Crispy4001
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2007
- Messages
- 730
If needed.
Onomanic
Heaven Piercer
Fix up the link a bit lol
Life
Smash Hero
Onomanic
Heaven Piercer
Tomato tomato.
Revven
FrankerZ
Just wanted to post saying I've been back home for the past 3 hours and I am tried as hell. FC was amazing!!
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
melee money match baka4moe vs meta right now and then probably back to pm
Sir Combee
Smash Apprentice
That was a very enjoyable tourney to watch, I'm glad it went so well for you PMBR! Although, I was kind of hoping for a bit more variety of characters, but I was glad to see at least some revamped characters being used (Bowser, DK, and Ness off the top of my head). I missed the early bracket parts of the tournament, did anyone use Zelda? I was kind of hoping to see some tourney Zelda in action.
Archangel
Smash Hero
well it's obvious some characters need to be buffed like Gaymanwatch for example but that's not exactly what I'm asking. a character that combines the easy success of Sheik with the flashy hype that falcon creates and with more range than Marth...there is alot of incentive to play ike. I will be honest and say this game doesn't have 10 years to wait. I'm not saying do something stupid like make ike bad. I'm simply saying a simple change in his fsmash power/knockback/speed/ or all idk. Won't be changing too much.
you can't control who plays with who but if you aren't going to give ike even a slight nerf then you are going to have to make some brawl minus like changes to other characters and I'm not sure that's a good idea.
Are you guys seriously trying to analyze ike from one players performance at one tournament -.-? From what I saw the top 8 had a nice variety of characters and nothing to complain about. The game is new, making generalizations without even having trends to draw from is kind of silly.
Onomanic
Heaven Piercer
I'm not so sure (I fell asleep during singles
) but there was Zelda rep in Melee which I found kind of odd.EDIT:
I think Vro's placement just spurned more discussion. We have old results and other Ikes to examine it's just Ike's performance warrants more discussion now.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
Sorry I didn't stream much pm. There were melee money matches that they wanted streamed/recorded.
^^^
The trend has been Ike doing good in general for awhile now. No this 1 tournament doesn't dictate how good Ike is or will be, but it was more than interesting to see an Ike take 2nd with fairly solid Melee and new blood P:M representation at that tournament. The actual gameplay Vro displayed isn't THAT hard to analyze and make reasonable conclusions from. Fair: big range. Side B stuff: cool. Fsmash: FURIOUS FIST OF THE GODS.
The game is young and blah blah blah obviously, but cmon! You really think people are going to NOT discuss the characters, Ike in particular who's been a hot topic for a bit, after a huge tournament like this? That's a bit silly. Along with the reasonable discussion, you're gonna have the "he's broken" and the "he blows" camps butting heads. That's the price you pay with both a game this young, and a game you have the active power to change.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
A lot of people complained about the songs, actually.
JC has gotta learn that some music doesn't need guitars.
Onomanic
Heaven Piercer
Speaking of that active power to change things, I really hope the PMBR decides to really never change anything in the hopes of balance. If that's the way a character turned out, then so be it. I think that's how Brawl+ kicked the can, too many changes.
I mean, that kind of attitude also leads to stuff like Brawl. Make it once, say **** it, look what happened with that. You know how much better we could have made the game with some patches? And I don't mean Brawl Minus/Plus/Balanced Brawl stuff.
Just strike a balance. With great power comes great responsibility blah blah peter parker etc. This isn't a 1 time deal, and you're wasting a lot of creative/balance potential if you just take that mentality. I think once you have all of the characters you want, figured out and in a playable state that's not redundant or broken, release it and give it an evaluation a year or so down the road. Patch gay stuff that potentially pops up, do that 1-2 times and have a final game. Gives you time to develop a meta, with the flexibility and actual power of being able to balance the game.
Kati
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2010
- Messages
- 1,471
Indeed. Learning lessons from Brawl+ is necessary, but becoming overly cautious has to be avoided as well. Brawl+ had nightly builds, PM never will. PM has its alpha testers and is attracting more and more melee vets; therefore, there should be some confidence when making tweaks rather than a fear of slipping to Brawl+ standards.
Onomanic
Heaven Piercer
On the topic of Ike, here are some videos done by Kizzu (and presumably Walk helped out too). Kizzu has a lot of matches against Walk on his channel, who seems like a pretty solid Ike. The two seem to go about even in Marth vs. Ike.
http://youtu.be/KUmosxxo_14
http://youtu.be/GfxoTRzSfTM
The first one features some Ike tricks, the second on how to edge guard his up B. Granted, not all of this will work in actual matches, but some of it seems very legit. Those shield breaker combos scare me.
@DMG, I mean, if something is absolutely destroying a meta game than it should be patched, like some kind of dumb, easy infinite or glitch. But a character who we know little about in comparison to the Melee characters shouldn't be nerfed until counters can be established. For example, we know that we should CP stages that lack walls to gimp his recovery. That's definitely a step in the right direction.
I agree with you, I just didn't say the bit about a patch here and there.
http://youtu.be/KUmosxxo_14
http://youtu.be/GfxoTRzSfTM
The first one features some Ike tricks, the second on how to edge guard his up B. Granted, not all of this will work in actual matches, but some of it seems very legit. Those shield breaker combos scare me.
@DMG, I mean, if something is absolutely destroying a meta game than it should be patched, like some kind of dumb, easy infinite or glitch. But a character who we know little about in comparison to the Melee characters shouldn't be nerfed until counters can be established. For example, we know that we should CP stages that lack walls to gimp his recovery. That's definitely a step in the right direction.
I agree with you, I just didn't say the bit about a patch here and there.
KingBlaze777
Smash Apprentice
Archangel
Smash Hero
http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-2099-page-2.html
count every character's placement for first place or top 3 places and see what you come up with.
There is nothing wrong with a character placing high so often especially if you have to work hard to get that good but I feel there is something fundamentally wrong if you don't have to work that hard to place that high with a character is all.
Few questions though.
1.Is frame advantage the only thing that makes a character top tier?
2.Are there any current melee top tiers who share the same weaknesses as Ike?
3.Are there any current characters with the same strengths as Ike in melee? If so what are their weakness? If not Why aren't their any?
4.What are the weaknesses that Ike and/ or other top characters currently have?
5.Can this be exploited by all other 28 characters?
6.If nerfing isn't an option can you buff all other characters so that they have a legit shot against the current top given the vast difference in strengths and weakness?
7.Do you feel you can beat the current top tiers with your main(if you don't main one of them)?
8.Do you think Archangel is a douchebag?
count every character's placement for first place or top 3 places and see what you come up with.
There is nothing wrong with a character placing high so often especially if you have to work hard to get that good but I feel there is something fundamentally wrong if you don't have to work that hard to place that high with a character is all.
Few questions though.
1.Is frame advantage the only thing that makes a character top tier?
2.Are there any current melee top tiers who share the same weaknesses as Ike?
3.Are there any current characters with the same strengths as Ike in melee? If so what are their weakness? If not Why aren't their any?
4.What are the weaknesses that Ike and/ or other top characters currently have?
5.Can this be exploited by all other 28 characters?
6.If nerfing isn't an option can you buff all other characters so that they have a legit shot against the current top given the vast difference in strengths and weakness?
7.Do you feel you can beat the current top tiers with your main(if you don't main one of them)?
8.Do you think Archangel is a douchebag?
Yeah it seems like for the most part, the characters are balanced pretty well. Its just some characters (ike) are easier to play as. And at this early stage, the characters that are easier to play should be winning because nobody knows how to play the harder characters yet.
Would Falco be as good in melee if nobody discovered how to pillar with Dair shines?
Ikes meta game is pretty much already developed. Just wait for the other characters meta game to catch up.
Would Falco be as good in melee if nobody discovered how to pillar with Dair shines?
Ikes meta game is pretty much already developed. Just wait for the other characters meta game to catch up.
Archangel
Smash Hero
ughh i'm so tired of hearing this.Yeah it seems like for the most part, the characters are balanced pretty well. Its just some characters (ike) are easier to play as. And at this early stage, the characters that are easier to play should be winning because nobody knows how to play the harder characters yet.
Would Falco be as good in melee if nobody discovered how to pillar with Dair shines?
Ikes meta game is pretty much already developed. Just wait for the other characters meta game to catch up.
Project M is not a completely new game. Most people have already made at least 4 years worth of advancement in 4 months with the newer characters. Falco, fox, falcon...etc are already at the pinnacle and for characters like falcon they are actually better.
the fact is...everything that can be done in melee is known at this point and can either be done by players or hacks just search for the TAS videos.
Onomanic
Heaven Piercer
No.
Stage dependency for recovery and easily comboable? You tell me.
I'd reckon Ganon shares some strengths. Both hit hard and some what quickly. Marth is probably another character he shares some strengths with, with all that range he's got.
His approach can be shut down by projectiles similarly to Falcon. Ike, unlike Falcon, lacks the overall speed to do anything about it though.
Only if all 28 characters are the same.
Buffing low/mid tiers to compete against Melee top/high tiers is the goal of Project M, is it not?
Yes.
Maybe.
not trueIkes meta game is pretty much already developed. Just wait for the other characters meta game to catch up.
Exhibit A: http://youtu.be/KUmosxxo_14
there's still plenty of innovation to take place
Archangel
Smash Hero
KingBlaze777
Smash Apprentice
The only character that has had a lot of innovations within its playstyle has been Ike (only Tink comes close, but is still too far behind). In order for your statement of "most people have already made at least 4 years worth of advancement in 4 months with the newer characters" to be true, we should've seen more character diversity and less mistakes due to having no MU knowledge against the newer characters (Ike, for example) at FC. How many Ikes where in pools? How many made it to the finals? Just because SOME players can do something, due to skill or due to hacks, doesn't mean that ALL players who main that character can emulate what top players do with the same character (See Falco mains, ALL of them know how to approach with SHL and Dair-Shine).
This IS a new game to A LOT of the player base, probably the majority.
I remember that you said you were gonna main Pit and wreck others with him. Have you given up on that and started complaining about another character? Just because he's been explored to a further extent than the rest, therefore giving him a better chance to succeed in tournaments at this early stage of the meta-game, doesn't mean that others can't catch up. Have you seen a masterfully played Lucario? I haven't, but I've seen a masterfully played Ike many times.
A small suggestion I have for making Pit's killing power a little better... Change his upsmash so that its just one single strong slash (maybe just use his third hit in the current upsmash).
My bad if that's a dumb idea, Pit is fun to play either way.
My bad if that's a dumb idea, Pit is fun to play either way.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Pit doesn't need kill moves, he's got everything else...
-Chad-
Slackerator
ike makes no sense to me
big heavy burly dood with insane spacing options, insane mobility, insane recovery and he doesn't even need to space aerials against shields
i found myself asking "why is this a thing" so many times lol
big heavy burly dood with insane spacing options, insane mobility, insane recovery and he doesn't even need to space aerials against shields
i found myself asking "why is this a thing" so many times lol
Archangel
Smash Hero
The whole first half of your post is nullified by the fact that melee results have shown that the favorite character and the best charter are often one in the same. However, that does not mean all players entering are skilled enough to use them regardless of difficulty. Even in 03 there were 20 sheik mains at a 50 person tournament and only 3 of them made top 10. Nowadays there are at least 30 fox/falco players for every 50 players in tournament and most of the time only 3 or 4 of them make are good.
I did say I'll play pit and I'll wreck with pit I just want to wait for him to be completed. It's pretty clear to most who play him that he's fun in his own way but I think the highest level of pit goes more to camping/time outs based on his current design because his kills are not easy to set up on anyone who's played more than 5 matches against him. I was playing some wifi teams earlier and I have recorded footage of Pit dropping fsmash against a sandbag....yes a sandbag escapes my fsmash....his Upsmash as well from time to time...so if a sandbag can get out of it then it's safe to say those things need to be fixed. Other than that Pit's fine I'm just exploring everyone else because... I want to know what everyone else can do. That way I don't end up looking like a ****head saying things like Character ___ sucks without having played them extensively myself.
i play a decent pit....u shouldn't really be looking for vertical K.O's. look for gimps, offstage chases with side-b, sweetspot bair/fair, dash attacks and d-throws are good combo starters. So most of your kills are going to be off the side and based on your edge guarding game.
his current upsmash is fine the way it is, you can side-b>dair>upsmash juggle spacies at lower %'s and still kills later on. not a bad move at all
his current upsmash is fine the way it is, you can side-b>dair>upsmash juggle spacies at lower %'s and still kills later on. not a bad move at all
MaxThunder
PM Support
- Status