he was also probably pretty nervous.
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Project M Social Thread
- Thread starter Project M
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KingBlaze777
Smash Apprentice
D3's Waddle toss can be used to shut down QD approaches, his range and power can compete with Ike. Ike has a terribad aerial game (as in he should only go airborne in certain situations but not stay there for a long time) while D3 has a great air game.
Lucas' PK Freeze is a good projectile and it can be used similarly to Falco's Blaster, so it has the potential to shut down Ike's QD approaches. Lucas has a Shine and is a good rushdown character, his Offense Up turns his smashes into reliable killers. DJC and Rising aerials just compliment to his combo game even more.
Luigi's Fireballs can annoy the hell out of QD approaches, his strong tilts and aerials give Ike a tough time staying on the stage.
The main difference between a someone who started playing Ike and someone who's good with Ike, is QD approaches. That's why I mention it a lot because it's a great part of his playstyle and it's SUPPOSEDLY as broken as Shines (even though Shines don't get shut down by anything that shuts down QD)
There are many characters on P:M's roster that, with enough practice, can be a counter to Ike. Maybe even a hard counter may emerge later in the meta-game, as P:M's metagame is ONLY 4 months old.
With that said, I rest my case
Wizzrobe, whether Vro was nervous or not it doesn't change the fact that HBox capitalized on one of Ike's weaknesses.
Lucas' PK Freeze is a good projectile and it can be used similarly to Falco's Blaster, so it has the potential to shut down Ike's QD approaches. Lucas has a Shine and is a good rushdown character, his Offense Up turns his smashes into reliable killers. DJC and Rising aerials just compliment to his combo game even more.
Luigi's Fireballs can annoy the hell out of QD approaches, his strong tilts and aerials give Ike a tough time staying on the stage.
The main difference between a someone who started playing Ike and someone who's good with Ike, is QD approaches. That's why I mention it a lot because it's a great part of his playstyle and it's SUPPOSEDLY as broken as Shines (even though Shines don't get shut down by anything that shuts down QD)
There are many characters on P:M's roster that, with enough practice, can be a counter to Ike. Maybe even a hard counter may emerge later in the meta-game, as P:M's metagame is ONLY 4 months old.
With that said, I rest my case
Wizzrobe, whether Vro was nervous or not it doesn't change the fact that HBox capitalized on one of Ike's weaknesses.
I'm in no way at all johning for Vro, I wanted Hbox to win I know him. I definitely could tell hbox played great.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Mario is the best character in this game.
Not really sure why PAL wasn't used as the basis for the good characters.
KingBlaze777
Smash Apprentice
Because NTSC
Is the source of many of the balance problems associated with the top tiers? Yeah.
Archangel
Smash Hero
I still think my idea of both nerfing and buffing Ike makes the most sense...even if it doesn't sound like it makes the most sense. 
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
JediKnightTemplar
Smash Lord
Because NTSC Melee.
KingBlaze777
Smash Apprentice
I don't know the differences bewtween PAL Fox and NTSC Fox, would you mind explaining them to my so I may understand why do you think that way?
MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
Iirc usmash and uair are slightly weaker
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
No only up smash is weaker and his recovery doesn't go as far.
Also ntsc is not a reason when pal is more balanced
Also ntsc is not a reason when pal is more balanced
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
PAL was slightly more balanced, and the top tiers only needed nerfs because they didn't choose to buff the low tiers. PMBR has chosen to buff the low tiers instead of nerfing the high tiers directly. Nobody likes to see their character nerfed, so I'm pretty sure the PAL users won't mind that even their high tiers are slightly better.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
It's almost like Ike becomes less overpowering once you know his weaknesses.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Just Usmash
I think a weaker or slower fsmash could do him some good, also alot of his moves need to be reworked. When swinging his sword there is no reason for the top half of his body to have a sword hitbox...that's just kinda lulzy.
I think his up B should be faster which in theory should make it easier to grab ledge-roll-up edgeguard, however allow him to DI forward a bit more. It may also give ike an UpB OoS escape from pressure..
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
I can agree with this. Giving Ike a better dash dance game to lead into his hitcofirms while decreasing the potency of, ahdunno, his Recovery a bit I guess? I don't really see many aspects of Ike that stand out as singularly definitive of overcentralising traits and think he's bad myself, but I would gladly trade one of his more polarising aspects for a better initial dash or faster anti-ground.I still think my idea of both nerfing and buffing Ike makes the most sense...even if it doesn't sound like it makes the most sense.
KingBlaze777
Smash Apprentice
And people still think that Ike is as broken as 1st Gen Psychic type pokemon
Two things that should be changed about Ike is his weight, there is no justification for him to be that heavy, he should be as heavy as Link, and his F-Smash start-up speed should be slower. Not as slow as vBawrl but not as fast as it currently is.
Two things that should be changed about Ike is his weight, there is no justification for him to be that heavy, he should be as heavy as Link, and his F-Smash start-up speed should be slower. Not as slow as vBawrl but not as fast as it currently is.
Archangel
Smash Hero
not exactly, 2 of the best Ike players already stated that he should get some nerfs in spots. Nobody wants to see a character nerfed unless it's obvious they need it. Reminds me of when mango went into his mode of only playing marth, mario, falcon. Most people don't even understand why he did it. Half of it was for trolling sake but the other half was because he wanted credit for his skill and as long as he was winning with puff he didn't get it because "puff is broken". He did it with falco. "Falco is broken". So he just kinda snapped after a bit and played mario. Oddly enough he didn't get the same credit "mango just wins because he's mango".
My point being as much as good players love winning they also like to be acknowledge for their skill and hard work. If you look at the difference between Vro's placing in Melee and his placing in Project M it's not hard to draw the connection to his placement directly to Ike. As happy as he might be to get such a high placing I'm sure he'd much rather be respected as a talented player and not just a guy getting by on character design.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
?????
Link is pretty darn heavy, how much heavier than that is he? I figured something was up when Darkrain knee'd him at like 80 and he went nowhere lol, but man.
Fsmash could be the same as it is honestly IF you change the knockback path more upwards. You could keep the same amount of knockback so that it's still powerful/sending you away, but not so damn hard horizontally. Getting hit by that move at low %, even if it doesn't kill you, leads to atrocious things getting edge guarded really easily. Compare his Fsmash to Ganon or Falcon. They give their entire bodies to the move, pressing their soulful elbows into your chest. Ike brings a sword down with the same speed/maybe faster with the biggest sword hitbox, and it's like Godzilla malangled a city.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Ike is 108 iirc. For comparison, that's 10 less than Bowser.
Also, I don't think his fsmash is any faster. It had 24 frames of startup in brawl (before it started charging) and 6 frames after that before it hits. That's 30 frames minimum startup. But monk or magus should get in here and whip me with some frame knowledge if I'm wrong.
Also, I don't think his fsmash is any faster. It had 24 frames of startup in brawl (before it started charging) and 6 frames after that before it hits. That's 30 frames minimum startup. But monk or magus should get in here and whip me with some frame knowledge if I'm wrong.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
All I remember about Brawl F-smashes is that Dedede, Ike, and Snake were all equal in frame total: Ike had the fastest start up and slowest end lag, Dedede had the slowest start up and least endlag, and Snake was in the middle for both.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Maybe DDD and Ike should switch Fsmash speeds in project M.
That would probably help both out
That would probably help both out
KingBlaze777
Smash Apprentice
There's a list in smashmods that has all the different values for weight, air speed, etc. and Ike was several spots higher than Link (The higher the spot on the list, the heavier the character is) Link's weight would fit Ike more than it fits Link. Just think about it, Link carries infinite bombs, infinite arrows, a clawshot, a sword and a shield, yet he's a mid-heavy weight character. Meanwhile, Ike just carries a zweihander with one hand and he's almost as heavy as Bowser, he can move extremely fast for a character his weight with QD.
A character with range that can be compared to Marth's (maybe even larger than Marth's), strength comparable to Ganon's and a move that gives him a mobility boost that can be JC'd, should NOT be almost as heavy as Bowser.
Onomanic
Heaven Piercer
Back in my day, we didn't ask for Smash Bros. characters to be nerfed, we just dealt with it and learned match ups. I think if we stopped discussing what makes Ike broken and more about how to deal with those broken things, we'd be a lot better off.
Do you really see his recovery as something that should be nerfed?
If the stage has no walls he doesn't have much he can do anyway.
Watching the Vro vs Hbox GF it looked like getting him off stage was pretty much a free stock.
People should really take this advice, almost the only person who talks about how to deal with Ike or what his flaws are is Umbreon(maybe it's better on smashmods, I haven't checked in a while), though he takes it a bit far, the rest of the posts seem to be pretty much complaining about how OP Ike is, or saying that results show he is good.
I'd say a lot of people are underestimating how much matchup unfamiliarity matters, not knowing how to deal with something is not the same as that something being broken.
Personally, I don't have much Ike experience, yet I still feel it's too early for people to be calling things overpowered.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Ike will only get 1 walled stage and only one match of good recovery in a typical Bo3 set unless the opponent is ********, or a fellow Ike.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Gimp Armor and giant spinning sword completely preventing dropzones were more what I was thinking about.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
The armor is only as he throws the sword and maybe a few frames more iirc. Its also horribly weak, I think sonic's spring might even be able to knock him out of it, although the times I've been knocked out of it by the spring may have just been before or after the armor. But the spinning Ragnell is pretty tough to get through unless you have good range, or an aerial without ****ty priority. I've beaten it with Falco's fsmash even... Is just got very particular timing, and the opponent doesn't always have the time to position themselves right.
Yeah you can trade/hit him out of it with most stomps. One big thing I didn't see was turning your back and making Ike guess whether you were gonna hog or still try to hit him. Vro got to the edge for free a few too many times. His recovery is pretty fine, just gotta have gutsier reactions to it than letting him grab the edge and trying to trap him. Stuff like weak knee from Falcon way offstage also gives him trouble. Interrupting Side B, putting projectiles out there, etc.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Ike needs nerfs, recovery is not something he needs nerfed at all, changed maybe in some ways but honestly I find killing ike easy with some characters, the problem is he kills sort of too easy.
Game 1 Vro vs Axe for example. Did it really seem like Vro earned that win in game 1? idk..Axe was all over him, he literally started swinging the sword and won. That joke has been around for awhile with marth but with Ike, he actually only has to swing his sword to win. Keeping ike basically the same but making it so that the person playing him doesn't have a get out of jail free card just makes sense.
for the record I don't think Ike is broken I think he has problems with DDD, Sheik, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Lucario, and Marth that requires alot of effort or a lucky fsmash to overcome. Then there are people like Link, Pit, Tink, Pikachu, Peach, Puff who can outplay him and just die suddenly and have lost before they know it. I think the heavyweights are the most even with Ike simply because they have the same threats he has just less range usually. All in all Ike's not Overpowered just too powerful and noob friendly at this point. If he was as difficult to play as Fox I'd say it's alright but he's on the same difficulty level as NTSC melee Sheik with more powerful attacks and in alot of ways more speed. It seems...overdone.
Game 1 Vro vs Axe for example. Did it really seem like Vro earned that win in game 1? idk..Axe was all over him, he literally started swinging the sword and won. That joke has been around for awhile with marth but with Ike, he actually only has to swing his sword to win. Keeping ike basically the same but making it so that the person playing him doesn't have a get out of jail free card just makes sense.
for the record I don't think Ike is broken I think he has problems with DDD, Sheik, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Lucario, and Marth that requires alot of effort or a lucky fsmash to overcome. Then there are people like Link, Pit, Tink, Pikachu, Peach, Puff who can outplay him and just die suddenly and have lost before they know it. I think the heavyweights are the most even with Ike simply because they have the same threats he has just less range usually. All in all Ike's not Overpowered just too powerful and noob friendly at this point. If he was as difficult to play as Fox I'd say it's alright but he's on the same difficulty level as NTSC melee Sheik with more powerful attacks and in alot of ways more speed. It seems...overdone.
Crispy4001
Smash Ace
- Joined
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Yet he obviously put forth a lot of effort to get there. He was the only Ike that made it to the top 6 in a tournament filled with them. Plus he took the character to both the singles and doubles finals.
That deserves some major props. He did what other Ikes didn't, and it showed in well how he used him.
If anything, he got by because an amazing Ike was still something of an unknown before this tournament. But that's how metagames develop. The innovators deserve respect. Especially him, since he wasn't of the mindset that this was some second string side tourney.
Onomanic
Heaven Piercer
Vro did not simply get to singles and doubles finals by "swinging his sword." He had to play against some of Melee's top players to get there. Vro beat Axe in game 1 by playing intelligently and as efficiently as possible and Axe's ability to adapt is what put him (Axe) on top in the end. That's why he was the only Ike to make into top six. Vro proved his skill and didn't win just because of his character - his placement does not justify nerfs.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Jigglypuff needs nerfs, the problem is she kinda recovers/combos/kills/spaces too easily. Grand finals Hbox vs Vro, did it really seem like Hbox earned those wins? He literally just started swinging his foot and won.
See? I can play that game too.
Archangel
Smash Hero
That is true but that argument has been deemed unexceptionable simply because people have said the same thing about fox/falco for years and yet they remain at the top of the tier list. Alot of Ike's did decent but they were mostly brawl converts or people testing the game out for lols who didn't even know the basics of the character. I saw an Ike get kicked away and up b'd WAY away from the stage...there was plenty of room to side-B and it was a walled stage... It didn't take me more than a day to figure out what Ike could do and I saw it as kinda gay especially vs lighter characters.
Now some important things to note for this tournament.
1. There are at least 2 good Ike's that didn't show up to this. 1 of which is better overall imo and based on when they played in the same tournament.
2. Alot of characters had little to no rep at this tournament despite it being the biggest so far.
3. if this tournament didn't run on pools all the way to the finish and it instead ran like a full winner and losers bracket style tournament this could've possibly turned out different.
I would have loved to have seen Eli vs Vro.
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