Project M Social Thread

[leelue]

There's an ssb4 forum section for this type of discussion.

Virtually none of that conversation was seriously about smash 4

 

[DMG]

I just started trying this game not too long ago. I like playing Ike. I'm curious to see what others think of the character...I've been getting complaints from some people I play of him being lolbroken. What are the main causes for concern, generally speaking? I'd like to see how it compares here.

Range and Power. His sword size is a bit ungodly for some moves lol.

Certain aspects of him are fine. His recovery is acceptable and has weaknesses. You can CC a lot of his shenanigans like jabs and punish them on the spot. But, whoever came up with how solid Fsmash is, how much distance he can cover with dash attack (it's like holding Ganon by the foot and swinging him at someone), some of that stuff is a bit ridiculous lol.

I'm very terrified at the thought of San, Ryo, Mr Doom etc transitioning into P:M and playing Ike very meticulously and having a better feel of the character than other people.

 

[Strong Badam]

Falcon is a good character.

Falcon is not a great, amazing, omg auto combos and eeeeee I win character.

Probably the most fair, rewarding good character in the game (Melee), imo.

Goodness is relative. Mario is a good character compared to say, Ness. Falcon is a good character compared to the ~20 characters that are worse than him. I compare goodness to the best characters. Falcon is not a good character compared to the top 4-6 characters in the game (entire post in reference to Melee).

 

[Airjelly]

So I went to boot up my wii today for my daily P:M fix, but it will not load from the stagebuilder. I'm not sure what's wrong; my sd card is somewhat new, and the wii hasn't had problems. Any advice?
(using 2.1 hackless, non-wifi build if that matters)

 

[Juushichi]

While that is fair of you to say, SB. 3/6 characters win/place high about the same amount or less than Falcon does. :x

I am almost... almost willing to say that Marth is a worse character than Falcon is, when played at a high/reasonably high level.

 

[Youngling]

give falcon n64 dair

 

[Kirk]

To me it seems that a few key moves just transferred very well to pm from brawl...namely fair, dair and dash attack...though dash attack was given an enormous boost to active frames.

I like the new quick draw, though the only thing I would change is the charge speed. It takes 30 frames for it to charge to full speed/distance in pm...a VERY drastic change from brawl...where it took 70 frames. I feel finding a middle ground value would help balance a bit...the other aspects are fine.

Range and power are what he should be about...and tilts seem to be a bit quick. I haven't played enough to make an accurate judgement, so I'm not sure if it needs to be changed.

 

[McNinja]

Hey what if Kirby's inhale was ledge-cancelable? So if you ledgehop inhale and miss you don't go falling way below stage waiting for the lag to end?

 

[Haloedhero]

Do you mean you want to be able to grab the ledge during inhale?

 

[CORY]

he means ledge cancelling the inhale animation, in the same way you would use the ledge teeter animation to cancel an aerial.

 

[leelue]

I assumed what the other guy said. Cancel like puff on the ledge

 

[Deleted member]

i guess what i really want to say at this point is that i think ike sucks and i'd just prove it and beat all the ike players by doing nothing but exploiting him, even though there are some very good players backing the character.

but then i'd want to do it with sheik because that's who i like to play.

but she sucks now and i don't want to spend all of my matches outplaying my opponents for blind kills and trading lots of unnecessary damage.

the last time i played PM was 6 months ago, i promised myself that i wouldn't play it until sheik was fixed, if ever.

because a practical boycott and posting on smashboards are really the only influence i have to make it happen, and it's still probably not going to.

since i don't really expect anything to change, i guess i have no business saying i'm going to prove that ike sucks.

so really my opinion isn't worth anything, right or wrong, and i really have no business posting here.

 

[Haloedhero]

Are you certain? Because it wouldn't make much sense for him to mean that if he's ledge hopping into the inhale, like he said. If ledgehopping into the inhale, what would cause him to slide off after he hits the stage? Wouldn't his momentum be going towards the middle of the stage?

 

[Shadic]

I really don't undetstand how you can think Sheik sucks Umbreon.

If her entire character in Melee was really based on Dthrow, isn't that a badly designed character?

 

[CORY]

ha, you know? i just read his post now that you said that (like, actually read it, instead of skimming). it looks like the terminology is just mixed up slightly and i don't think that would be a good idea, in that case. like, at all. it would just really encourage kirby to sit on the ledge and try for kirbicides with very little risk to the player.

 

[MaxThunder]

@Halo:he probably meant jump off the ledge...

@Umbreon: changes to throws destroys shiek?..

 

[ELI-mination]

Sheik is amazing in P:M, wtf are you talking about

 

[Deleted member]

I really don't undetstand how you can think Sheik sucks Umbreon.

If her entire character in Melee was really based on Dthrow, isn't that a badly designed character?

her downthrow is obviously horribly designed, it beats entire characters by itself.

but she still needs it. she has no other way to circumvent crouch abuse at low % and inevitability for kill power is one of her biggest assets.

i've proposed alternatives in design for her before that would remove the chaingrab but keep those two characteristics.

without them she spends the match trading moves or getting easily trapped and killed and you have to outplay your opponent to both rack up damage and KO, basically the only two things you ever do in smash.

and if you spend most of your time outplaying opponents to beat them, it's a pretty good indication that your character sucks.

and her throw is not a "mix-up", you hold down on the throw and she can't combo most characters at all. it's actually just bad. all the change did was ruin 2 otherwise good throws.

and the entire character.

edit: the only sheik i've played against was ryoko, and i beat him pretty consistently with marth after the change where before our matches were probably a dead 50/50, and marth isn't even good at crouch abuse.

edit 2: i don't like zelda either, but as i understand it, zelda is a really unpopular character design right now to a lot of people and i don't feel like talking about it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@umbreon
Have you tried using her down-b? I've heard it's pretty good.

 

[leelue]

Umbreon, I very much doubt that sheik went from one of the best and most flexible characters in the game because one move got worse [edit- 2]. It makes her worse, but "Sucks" is very much an understatement. Yes it was her best, I recognize that. But the assertion that the character is bad now is plain silly, and the fact that you're Boycotting the game is even more of an overreaction.

I don't care for crouch cancelling either, but not enough to straight up not play.

I continue to hope that this change allows the team to consider giving other top tiers a little less bite in their objectively broken aspects, and welcome any chance to improve upon melee.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Seriously though, Sheik's going to have counters just like any other character and if you want to succeed in P:M you'll need to main more than one character anyways... Why not just pick up Zelda too have probably the best character spread in the game?

 

[oliman]

Came in to say that ike isn't even close to OP. for low level he may be, but its the same way how in melee everyone i knew thought roy was OP because of fsmash, and how in brawl people thought that dedede was broken because of his chaingrab.

 

[Deleted member]

Umbreon, I very much doubt that sheik went from one of the best and most flexible characters in the game because one move got worse [edit- 2]. It makes her worse, but "Sucks" is very much an understatement. Yes it was her best, I recognize that. But the assertion that the character is bad now is plain silly, and the fact that you're Boycotting the game is even more of an overreaction.

I don't care for crouch cancelling either, but not enough to straight up not play.

she pretty bad in a relative way. she can't really force you to do anything because her ground control is based heavily on the fear that comes from getting grabbed. otherwise you can just disrespect her like people do to melee roy. like before you could do something stupid and you....get ***** pretty much. now you can do something stupid, hold shield, take 10% or whatever and the match resets to neutral. if you know you're not going to get combo'd for 70% every time you do something stupid, you can just trade hits with her and kill her without much difficulty.

which is pretty much what happened when i played ryoko. he'd get me in a bad position and i'd block and i'd take some minor amount of damage that doesn't really matter straight to like 140. it's really pretty terrible.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Learn to use her down-b... I'm not joking this time. Stop complaining if you aren't utilizing everything the character has to offer.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Do people really dislike zelda's character design as umbreon says?

And umbreon if the throw change ruins her so much why was she still top tier in pal melee?

 

[CORY]

because pal throw change isn't the same as the pm throw change. pal just made it so you couldn't chain everyone (protip: that was hyperbole) until they could be fair'd to death. p:m is a completely different setup with two "different" moves. that's what his gripe is about.

whether it has merit or not, i can't comment as i'm:
a) honestly, a bad player.
b) lacking in video (thus, in play) proof to analyze.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I might be wrong but it seems to me that the pm dthrow is more favorable then the pal dthrow. It seems to me (and i could be wrong since i dont play sheik or pal) but the pm dthrow ether leads to a tech chase just like pal or if they di poorly leads to a re grab or fair, ftilt ect

 

[Kink-Link5]

Falcon is a good character.

Falcon is not a great, amazing, omg auto combos and eeeeee I win character.

Probably the most fair, rewarding good character in the game (Melee), imo.

Ignoring dair and grab auto combos into kill move at 60%, that is. Even his tech chases don't require prediction and can be done on reaction to get a confirm into dair and then fair.

Falcon has some of the most consistent, easy combos of most any other character.

 

[Shadic]

If you (Umbreon) really think Sheik needs some Dthrow that works better than P:Ms and doesn't Chain like Melee's, spend some time in PSA coming up with some values your happy with or something.

If it works and we like it, it could happen, you never know.

 

[Youngling]

Learn to use her down-b... I'm not joking this time. Stop complaining if you aren't utilizing everything the character has to offer.

I can't tell if either you're a scrub or you're trolling.

edit: If there were a way for sheik to still get ~guaranteed tilts and aerials off her dthrow without having ridiculous chain grabs on half the cast I think that would be perfect

 

[PGH Carroll]

Me and Green Ranger are gonna **** teams at FC. +

 

[McNinja]

It might be a bit late, but I mean cancelable like Jiggs sing. Although if you actually swallow someone, you don't grab the ledge. But if you miss, the ledge gets grabbed like sing.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I wasn't trolling. The availability of a whole other viable character out of her down-b is a huge buff. I've seen many put her at the top of tier lists simply because of it. If he can't compete well with sheik, then not being willing to learn to use Zelda to make up for it is his own fault, not PMBR's. Even if sheik got her old dthrow back, he'd probably need to main another character if he wanted to win tournaments just because of how many viable characters are now. All it takes is for one of them to be a hard counter...

 

[Deleted member]

while we're talking about sheik's downthrow, what do mario's and ganon's look like? real question, i haven't seen them or their CG capabilities.

 

[Shadic]

Ganon's is Melee's, but slightly better due to some global physics stuff that will eventually be addressed, iirc.

 

[DMG]

Mario's looks slightly better % wise, but idk if it's easier to actually CG people. The ganon one compared to Melee feels easier and in general "gayer".

Mario likes it a lot though with the Dr Mario fair, that move out of Uthrow or Dthrow feels nice.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Ganon can CG Lucas to death pretty easily.

 

[Magus420]

More like a lot better. All d-throw CGs are extended as much as 30% compared to melee, along with being unable to land on platforms until much later than normal. The throws themselves are not any different, but outer limb hurtboxes being grabbable (can be reached to regrab for longer), jump movement being delayed 1 frame (takes longer to jump out), and tumble action using brawl floor collision detection (takes longer to land on platforms) are what's different.


DIing Sheik's d/b-throw down does not work for any character that could be comboed by NTSC d-throw btw. You can f-tilt (d-throw only; depends on character width), regrab, dash attack, as well as f-air when they DI the throws down. Maybe it did back then but it has not for a very long time. It sounds like you're going by an initial draft of the changes from long ago which were revised a couple times.

D-throw is PAL d-throw with a 2 degrees higher/more comboable angle (or NTSC with 18 degree lower angle since the only difference between those versions is the 80->60 angle change), and much less startup (38->16). B-throw has more base knockback and far less growth, angle 45-> 67, endlag 28->21, and startup 22->16 to better mesh/scale as a comboable throw with d-throw. People say it negatively affects its use on FFers, but I think a lot of that is just not being used to it than anything, as the much lower endlag allows more time to position to intercept their recovery, and if you catch them DIing towards the stage you can combo them directly.

 

[Shadic]

I knew my partially incorrect statement would summon Magus somehow.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Isn't there some ritual you have to perform to summon Magus?