Project M Social Thread

[CORY]

i think you could do oddities like that in melee, too. i know you could make tethers do that type of effect if you got the timing right.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

As an Ike main, I can't bring myself to say FoD is neutral.
Maining Ike also makes it difficult to give my opinion on stages like Ike-Ware and Yoshi's Story.

"I have a bug report. I was recovering with Falco on WarioWare against a Mario who caped me. I expected to die like usual, but I grabbed the ledge backwards, and by that I mean I was in the ledgegrab animation, but Falco was facing the other direction with his back to the stage and his hand grabbing thin air. I have a picture of it if you want to see."

I think that was in Brawl too.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I'm going to have to try Port Town now. I've tried every stage that looked like it had been changed, and a few others just to see if they'd been changed in any way. Port Town wasn't one of those, though.

Do you guys think Port Town could be used as a CP now?

Depends on region. Both Pirate Ship and Port Town have nerfed hitboxes on hazards which makes the more sane, but most people don't know that.

Try playing on Port Town for a while and see for yourself - I think it's more viable than Mute City due to the blast zones in Port Town being sane(though small).

 

[hotdogturtle]

I have a bug report. I was recovering with Falco on WarioWare against a Mario who caped me. I expected to die like usual, but I grabbed the ledge backwards, and by that I mean I was in the ledgegrab animation, but Falco was facing the other direction with his back to the stage and his hand grabbing thin air. I have a picture of it if you want to see.

That's a Brawl glitch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zMsFAYBXf0

Try playing on Port Town for a while and see for yourself - I think it's more viable than Mute City due to the blast zones in Port Town being sane(though small).

Doesn't Port Town still have a bunch of HUGE areas, including one that's close to a walkoff because it's so big?

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

It does, but the blast zones aren't insane like in Mute City. Mute City had huge areas and small areas with HUGE blast zones.

 

[FireBall Stars]

I agree with EY on Port Town.

For me it's a completely viable counterpick stage.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Is Delfino ever going to get some sort of Melee water update to it? I can't stand brawl's water mechanics as they are.

ALSO

Any patch news? I've been out for a few weeks. Changes (besides glitches), months till, etc?

 

[MonkUnit]

I don't believe anyone has found what controls the water height on each(?) and/or all the water parts of Delfino Plaza.
The water portion on the island part would be really weird too. You'd be standing on the island while under water.

 

[Sethlon]

I'm not too sure about where Temple M and Rumble Falls M should go... I think Temple is definitely a counterpick. I'm not really sure about RF, but i'm leaning towards CP I guess.

Both should be a counterpick, they're too strange to be neutral stages.

Someone managed to give the platform on the right proper collision data (grabable ledge) and I gave it a ceiling/lip, would this help?


*edit*

But that reminds me... I've noticed that characters rebound off of ceilings and instantly reach a much higher velocity than before they impacted with it. It makes for wonderful ko's when the frigate platform is at its highest... but it seems unnaturally fast.

A lip would certainly help, but making the platform solid would counteract that. Imagine people getting thrown under it as its going down...

I'm going to have to try Port Town now. I've tried every stage that looked like it had been changed, and a few others just to see if they'd been changed in any way. Port Town wasn't one of those, though.

Do you guys think Port Town could be used as a CP now?

Port town seem pretty legit to me. The cars were the main problem IMO, and now that the main platform has a lip, the only real legitimate complaint about it that I can see is that it moves, lol.

Pictochat seems much more like a CP stage too now, now that the bombs are gone and the line of doom doesn't actually get in the way. But on the other hand Dallas has always been fine with Pictochat anyways, lol.

Smashville
Battlefield
Pokemon Stadium 2
Fountain of Dreams
Green Hill Zone

Are the stages I would have as the starters.

I'm considering doing something like this for Bowser's Revenge, except probably swap out FoD for WarioWare.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Now that I've tried it, I like Port Town a lot. The only thing I'm nervous about are that there seem to be a few locations where you don't have any platforms to go on to avoid the cars.

Has Pictochat been changed too? I'm going to try that and Pirate Ship now.

 

[GP&B]

I believe the stupid transformations for Pictochat have been disabled. The one with the cart flying back and forth had the hitbox on it removed, I think.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Pictochat seems pretty sure good, from the time I just spent on it. I support it being a CP.

Pirate Ship I'm iffy about. I'd support it being a CP in a liberal stage list, but not a typical one.

 

[Sethlon]

Pictochat; The missiles are gone now (they explode instantly without a hitbox), the cart has no hitbox, the ladders are gone from that transformation, you can move through the big diagonal line transformation now (which I'm assuming means you can grab the left ledge during that transformation now, but I haven't checked)...you can drop through the whale transformation...the only ones that seem really invasive now are the hand and head transform (you can only move through the hand) and the blowing face one (the wind is still a pretty big deal). Not sure about the pyramid-ish one.

 

[Jonny Westside]

In other news:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09ZLHVf2XFs

 

[Oneupsalesman]

Does the online version work very well?

And from what I've seen, the way Ike has been used has been amazing.

 

[Strong Badam]

works about as well as brawl wifi

 

[GP&B]

EDIT: Or that. Didn't know if you meant the actual connection.

 

[`dazrin]

pirate ship is probably a banned stage. Water, bombs, insta-spike on ship's tip, tornado, catapult, very uneven stage....

it all still seemed like a bit too much

 

[Deleted member]

relative goodness aside, ganon and ike aren't comparable in any way. they both have vastly different ideal movement and positioning based on how their moves hit. comparing their moves directly is a horrible means for consideration.

i still think ike blows, although some recent videos i'm seeing suggest that he can cover his massive holes with some work, so maybe he isn't bottom tier by himself like i thought he was before.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I agree that comparing their moves isn't the best method of consideration, but since he said they had completely different movesets, I thought I'd point out the abundance of similarities. And I forgot about their Dsmash. If all that mattered was the moveset, people would be complaining about Falcon/Ganon and Falco/Fox being identical. However, playing these characters is completely different, due to the other (far more important) aspects of their game.

I am a bit surprised by what you said, though. I've felt like their movement and positioning was almost identical, and I know other people I've talked to feel the same way. Why is it that you think they're that different?

 

[Sinji]

I put this on Final Destination.

Tekken Tag Ogre Theme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK1s6b3voQw

 

[CORY]

Pictochat seems much more like a CP stage too now, now that the bombs are gone and the line of doom doesn't actually get in the way. But on the other hand Dallas has always been fine with Pictochat anyways, lol.

the only thing i'd want to change on pictochat would be to get rid of the wind mode. it's cool on green greens, but that might just be because it's always had wind. for whatever reason, though, it's just more annoying than it should be on pictochat, though...

 

[RaphaelRobo]

The wind on pictochat feels stronger than the wind of Dreamland.

 

[leelue]

Both should be a counterpick, they're too strange to be neutral stages.

What does a stage's weirdness have to do with it's status as a neutral? *
Ghz has the oddest platform in history
FD is flat. That's objectively weird.

For the record, and for anyone who feels the same way, I no longer count FD as neutral. In addition to all of my arguments before, I also noticed that sonic literally gets 47x better when he has a big stage to run on with no platforms to get in his way. It really is just insane how much of a boost he gets there.

As far as size goes, how much bigger is RF (or castlevania) than FD? Anybody with a real, measured response gets a prize.

*edit
Temple m is not neutral because it makes a lot of matchups stuuuuupid, so I agree.

 

[CORY]

maybe that's it... all i know is that dreamland wind doesn't bug me much, but pictochat's feels like that one guy who would stand in front of you waving his hands yelling, "I'M NOT TOUCHING YOU! I'M NOT TOUCHING YOU!" it's not necessarily doing anything, but god dammit, you want to punch it so bad.

 

[leelue]

Pictochat's wind sucks because it is the entire stage that's affected.

 

[Archangel]

I'm trying to get more experience with Wifi gameplay. Anyone interested?

 

[Youngling]

If we want to use a bunch of stages we are going to have to really revise the counterpicking system

 

[CORY]

Pictochat's wind sucks because it is the entire stage that's affected.

i'm rather sure that the entire stage was affected by dreamland's wind, even in melee...

 

[hotdogturtle]

As far as size goes, how much bigger is RF (or castlevania) than FD? Anybody with a real, measured response gets a prize.

Final Destination is 171.1212 units wide.
Dracula's Castle is 161.1 units wide.
I'm not entirely sure about Rumble Falls because the collisions are weird, but it might be 198.60192.

Where's my prize?

 

[Deleted member]

I am a bit surprised by what you said, though. I've felt like their movement and positioning was almost identical, and I know other people I've talked to feel the same way. Why is it that you think they're that different?

ganon's grabs are WAY better, and all of his aerials hit you "out". this changes the dynamic quite a bit. ganon has the luxury of camping the middle of the stage and limiting your shield use, while ike you can slowly steal ground and positioning adv from him by carefully advancing with your shield, partially because his grabs suck and partially because only fair/bair hit you out, while nair/upair hit you up. because you're trying to steal ground from him, all you want pretty much is for ike to SH and to grab/trap whatever he does before his move comes out. you can do this to ganon, but because of the positioning difference, you won't want to be in that position nearly as often.

the only way i see ike covering this hole is very creative dair use. even then it's still a pretty massive hole. ike is really lacking any way to land safely outside of tricking the opponent, which you can do to some extent but after a while (read: immediately) it's pretty easy to exploit. any char with a good dashgrab or fast interrupt for his SH should **** ike horribly.

 

[Sethlon]

What does a stage's weirdness have to do with it's status as a neutral?
Ghz has the oddest platform in history
FD is flat. That's objectively weird.

Strange as in they are significantly different than neutral stages.
GHZ has one thing strange about it; a platform that moves in an arc.
FD has one thing strange about it; it has no platforms at all.

In contrast;
Temple has three things strange about it; platforms in odd places, a lip you can get caught under on the right side, and very uneven terrain (<- most important by far). I think it might also be longer than most stages.

Rumble Falls has four things strange about it; it has platforms in a much higher than normal formation, it has terrain that is uneven, you can jump up through the bottom of the stage, and its freakin' massive.


Also, alternate measuring of dracula's castle/dreamland/other neutrals cause I got carried away. Each percent is the earliest mario will blast-zone kill another mario with fsmash at the center of the stage, no DI, just holding in towards the stage afterwards.
Yoshi's Story - 69%
Smashville - 84%
Battlefield - 85%
Final Destination - 91%
PokemonStadium2 - 93%
Dreamland - 94%
Dracula's Castle - 95%
GreenHillZone - 74%
WarioWare - 79%
Fountain of Dreams - 77%

And because I was curious, earliest % at which fox's upsmash will kill mario off the top from the center of the stage;
Yoshi's Story - 74%
Smashville - 77%
Battlefield - 82%
Final Destination - 79%
PokemonStadium2 - 77%
Dreamland - 94%
Dracula's Castle - 77%
GreenHillZone - 80%
WarioWare - 74%
Fountain of Dreams - 83%

 

[leelue]

Final Destination is 171.1212 units wide.
Dracula's Castle is 161.1 units wide.
I'm not entirely sure about Rumble Falls because the collisions are weird, but it might be 198.60192.

Where's my prize?

Is that blastzone to blastzone or ledge to ledge?

 

[hotdogturtle]

Is that blastzone to blastzone or ledge to ledge?

Ledge to ledge. Did you want the blast zones too?

 

[Xebenkeck]

I have:
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Battlefield

I think these are the 3 most neutral stages. Not sure anyone would say any of these are broken or polarizing in anyway. The only thing I could think of is someone complaining about the smashville balloon.

Then
Fountain of Dreams
Green Hill Zone

If i were being super conservative I wouldn't have either of these stages, just those first three as the starters.

But Green Hill Zone is most like smashville to me. The only arguements against GHZ is, a) the vertical blastzone is really high. b) The stage has walls all the way down the sides. The vertical blastzone favors floaties, but considering Dreamland was a starter, It can't be any worse then it. Then there are the walls. Which quite frankly is very character dependant on their usefulness. Ike and Mario would want to play on GHZ for the walls. Other characters like Lucas, link, etc would be indifferent about it.

FoD is the last stage I ploped in to make an odd number. It came down to YI:M and FoD. Given the choice between the two, I think Randal can effect a match more, plus YI:M low ceiling make it a worse stage then FoD. FoD has the moving platfroms, but the blastzones are reasonable all be it smaller then usual. And the moving platforms to me dont effect the match to much, IMO Smashvilles platform has bigger impact then FoD platforms.

But basically for me it goes like this
Pokemon Stadium 2 > Battlefield > Smashville > Green Hill Zone > Fountain of Dreams > Yoshi Story:Melee > Dreamland 64 > Skyworld > Final Destination for neutrality.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Not sure if I'm looking at the right numbers here...

FD: 492
DC: 520
RF: 460

This is horizontal blast lines only.

 

[Strong Badam]

i'd hope you're able to find the correct Dead#N values lol

 

[hotdogturtle]

Skyworld >FD

Woah now, let's not get too crazy.

i'd hope you're able to find the correct Dead#N values lol

It's been a while since I looked at this stuff, and the new BrawlBox was showing me a bunch of numbers that I didn't remember being there, so I switched to an older one to find the right values that I was familiar with.

>_> I did it right, right?

 

[Xebenkeck]

Final Destination is a stage that polarizes more match-ups then any other stage in smash.

 

[Strong Badam]

The issue I have is that the term "Neutral" isn't even applicable, and hasn't been for nearly 3 years now. Through stage striking, a player can prevent a stage from being played on for game 1, so having a "polarizing" stage on as a Starter doesn't matter. Dreamland is "polarizing" in that in some matchups it favors floatier characters, but the stage has a consistent layout and the wind on it does not really impact things at all. Part of the skill of this game is knowing how to play on different stages. Making a stage banned/CP just because "It's different" is horrendously bad justificaiton.
Instead what you should be looking into as far as a list of stages to strike from goes, is to prevent stages that:
1. Have inconsistent impact on results. i.e. random events. Brinstar, Pictochat, etc. have random effects and while perfectly fine for competitive play in general, not suitable as Starter stages.
2. Have uneven terrain/irregular platform layouts, as status quo is important.