Project M Social Thread

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Its also fairly impractical to go through a stage selection process of about 20 stages too.

 

[Strong Badam]

Indeedio. 7 or 9 starters seems to be the best thing to do for PM.

And I'm really disappointed with the people thinking FoD shouldn't be a starter. LMAO

 

[Shadic]

Final Destination is a stage that polarizes more match-ups then any other stage in smash.

That is utter hyperbole.

'sup Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar Depths, Mushroomy Kingdom.

 

[Strong Badam]

brinstar depths is the greatest legal stage in the game

 

[hotdogturtle]

How does Brinstar Depths polarize matchups actually? I thought that it made all characters universally worse.

 

[Metà]

Falco can KO pretty much anyone at like 20% with a shine on Brinstar Depths, it's gotta be like, the lowest ceiling in the game.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think I am confusing brinstar acid level with the rotating rock brinstar stage. Neither of which I recall having a low ceiling except perhaps deceptively low.

 

[Xebenkeck]

@ Strong Bad using your criteria then.
1. Have inconsistent impact on results. i.e. random events. Brinstar, Pictochat, etc. have random effects and while perfectly fine for competitive play in general, not suitable as Starter stages.
2. Have uneven terrain/irregular platform layouts, as status quo is important.

This is where the stages fall:
Good
Battlefield
Final Destination
Rumble Falls
Pokemon Stadium 2
Wario Ware
SSE Jungle

Unsure: As they do have moving parts to the stage, thus psuedoly violating 1 and 2.
Green Hill Zone (2)
Yoshi Story Melee (2)
Dreamland 64 (1)
Kongo Jungle (2)
Fountain of Dreams (2)
Smashville (2)




Bad: And which of your two critera they break.
Shadow Mosses (1)
Norfair (1)
Battleship Halberd (1)
Lylat Cruise (1)
Jungle Japes (1)
Pictochat (1)
Mario Circut (1)
Temple M (2)
Delfino Plaza (2)
Draculas Castle (2)
Metal cavern (2)
Hyrule Castle (2)
Saffron City (2)
Pokemon Stadium 1 (2)
Rainbow Cruise (2)
Castle Siege (2)
Skyworld (2)
Fourside (1 2)
Onett (1 2)
Corneria (1 2)
Flatzone 2 (1 2)
Frigate Orphean (1 2)
Yoshis Island Brawl (1 2)
Port Town Aero Dive (1 2)
Hanenbow (1 2)
Pirate Ship (1 2)
Summit (1 2)
Big Blue (1 2)
Brinstar (1 2)

 

[Metà]

I think I am confusing brinstar acid level with the rotating rock brinstar stage. Neither of which I recall having a low ceiling except perhaps deceptively low.

Depths had a retardedly low ceiling, try playing there against a fox

 

[MaxThunder]

I guess I'll try making a stage list too...
Starters:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
WarioWare
Pokemon Stadium 2
Dreamland
Green Hill Zone

Counterpicks:
Metal Cavern
Dracula's Castle
Rumble Falls
Yoshi's Island
Skyworld
Konge Jungle (i hate this stage, though... but i found no objective reason to exclude it=(...)
Fountain of Dreams
Temple: M
Yoshi's Story
Pokemon Stadium
and possibly:
Pictochat
Halberd
Port Town Aero Dive
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes
Pirate Ship

... this is for singles only btw...

 

[Strong Badam]

SSE:J is a bad stage and you should feel bad for mentioning it.

Moving plats are fine; they're all on timers, and as such the impact is consistent.

WarioWare's platform layout is irregular. It affects edgeguarding a lot.

 

[`dazrin]

This is probably what I would go with. (singles)

Starters: (7)
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Green Hill Zone
Fountain of Dreams
Yoshi's Story (melee)

Counterpicks: (10..[15?])
WarioWare
Dreamland 64
Metal Cavern
Dracula's Castle
Rumble Falls
Yoshi's Island (Barwl)
Skyworld
Kongo Jungle 64
Temple: M
Pokemon Stadium

Unsure:
Pictochat
Halberd
Port Town Aero Dive
Jungle Japes
Hyrule Castle 64

 

[JCaesar]

Since we're on the subject of stages again, I'll repost the the stagelist we're using at Zenith in a couple weeks:

Spoiler

For the 1st match, stage strike the starter list in 1-2-2-1-1-2 fashion. After the 1st match, each player bans a stage group for the remainder of the set (Players may counterpick a stage from the group they banned, and both players may ban the same group). The player who lost the previous match chooses a stage, then the player who won chooses their character, then the player who lost chooses their character.

Starters:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Dreamland (64)
Yoshi's Story (Melee)
Fountain of Dreams (singles only)
SSE: Jungle (doubles only)

Counterpicks:
Group 1:
Final Destination
Smashville
Green Hill Zone
Dracula's Castle

Group 2:
Battlefield
Pokemon Stadium 1
Pokemon Stadium 2

Group 3:
Yoshi's Story (Melee)
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Wario Ware
Fountain of Dreams

Group 4:
Dreamland (64)
Skyworld
Rumble Falls
SSE:Jungle (teams only)

Group 5:
Kongo Jungle (64)
Halberd
Brinstar
Metal Cavern (singles only)
Hyrule Temple:M (teams only)

 

[`dazrin]

Now that I think about it, your system looks really good on paper, but in practice.. isn't it alot to keep track of? lol

Am I supposed to memorize every group? It's just it seems like it'd take a lot of time to do as well.

I'm really interested into how it all works though, JC. I really like the system, just thought about how it would go down when the rubber meets the road.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

ganon's grabs are WAY better, and all of his aerials hit you "out". this changes the dynamic quite a bit. ganon has the luxury of camping the middle of the stage and limiting your shield use, while ike you can slowly steal ground and positioning adv from him by carefully advancing with your shield, partially because his grabs suck and partially because only fair/bair hit you out, while nair/upair hit you up. because you're trying to steal ground from him, all you want pretty much is for ike to SH and to grab/trap whatever he does before his move comes out. you can do this to ganon, but because of the positioning difference, you won't want to be in that position nearly as often.

the only way i see ike covering this hole is very creative dair use. even then it's still a pretty massive hole. ike is really lacking any way to land safely outside of tricking the opponent, which you can do to some extent but after a while (read: immediately) it's pretty easy to exploit. any char with a good dashgrab or fast interrupt for his SH should **** ike horribly.

I see what you're getting at. I haven't really run into that problem with Ike. I've been able to punish with Fairs/Bairs just like I would with Ganon, and use them fairly similarly on each character. I've used Ftilt as a spacing tool on Ike, and found it to be very effective, much more than it is on Ganon. Also, I've found that after hitting with Ike's Nair, it's fairly easy to follow up with a Fair. Maybe this is just because of the people I've been playing with, though.

As for losing ground, I think that's something Ike players just have to do. A well timed QD or punish can easily gain back everything you lost, and then more. As long as you play safe and don't lose any more than necessary, it doesn't seem to be a problem.

I think it's possible to land safely with Ike, but that could just be because of who I'm playing with. I haven't found it difficult to land safely with him, but Ganon does a far better job of it.

As for the stage thing, I agree with everything SB says, aside from the FoD starter. While it being on a timer is much better, I still feel like the platforms interfere too much with gameplay. I know that I avoid the platforms as much as possible during a game because of their movement. Given that the sequence is over a minute long, you can't just look at the timer and know exactly where each platform is going to be.

I'm honestly surprised by all the "Randal interfering" talk that's going on. Is it really that hard for you guys to look at the clock? He's only on a 20 second cycle, and one that's very easily memorized. In my opinion, FoD is the only cycle you can complain about memorizing.

 

[JCaesar]

Now that I think about it, your system looks really good on paper, but in practice.. isn't it alot to keep track of? lol

Am I supposed to memorize every group? It's just it seems like it'd take a lot of time to do as well.

I'm really interested into how it all works though, JC. I really like the system, just thought about how it would go down when the rubber meets the road.

I've already used it in a couple tourneys and it worked well. The key is to have it written down somewhere convenient so everyone can see it. I recommend printing a stagelist out for every setup (what I did for Genesis and what I'll be doing for Zenith), or have a big poster or whiteboard (what I use at Legionfests at our apartment) that everyone can see.

 

[Wolfy!]

I like JCaesar's stage picking idea a lot. I'll try it out at my next tournament and see how it goes.

 

[leelue]

What is it about uneven terrain that is so important? I mean, besides me auto-banning yoshi-brawl because sonic can't spindash on 99.2% of the stage...
In drastic cases I can immediately see why (temple) but in others (rumble falls) the reasoning is beyond me (except, you know, ruining spindashes).

HDT, I understand being confused with skyworld being more neutral than FD, but what exactly about skyworld makes it less neutral? We all hate the floor, but surely there must be more?

Finally, why is castlevania a counterpick and not a neutral?

Just starting conversation

 

[UltiMario]

I made some stagelist, 1-2-2-1-1-2 striking, and 2 bans. Let's see if I can remember it off the top of my head. 7/7 legal and counterpick stagelist.

Neutral:
Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi's Story
Pokemon Stadium 2
Dreamland
Smashville
Fountain of Dreamland (Singles) / Temple: M (Doubles)

Counterpicks:
Pokemon Stadium
Rumble Falls
Wario Ware
Jungle Japes
Skyworld
Metal Cavern (Singles) / Dracula's Castle (Doubles)
Yoshi's Island (Singles) / SSE: Jungle (Doubles)

Singles/Doubles choices are mainly made because I feel those stages are too cramped/roomy, even if some of the choices are a bit awkward. But it's a hella easy to remember.

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't understand why people ban FoD in doubles? It doesn't lag.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

People forget that and are used to Melee, where it lags.

Would SSE:J be a neutral in doubles? It seems like the insane amount of space wouldn't be as much of an issue as it is in singles, but I haven't played doubles on it enough to know for sure.

Why cut dracula out of singles? It's smaller than FD, and has platforms. The way the platforms move is out of the way, unlike dreamland, but still fairly useful. I don't know if it's a good stage for Ganon, but I have a lot of fun there.

Personally, I think we should have either 7 or 9 starters, and as many CPs as we can fit. This gives us plenty of room to eliminate stages if they turn out to be bad CPs. When I get home, I'll post the list I'm thinking of at the moment. It's fairly liberal, to give us plenty of room to work out which stages are good and which stages aren't. It's fairly similar to what JC has, except with a few more.

 

[leelue]

I made some stagelist, 1-2-2-1-1-2 striking, and 2 bans. Let's see if I can remember it off the top of my head. 7/7 legal and counterpick stagelist.

Neutral:
Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi's Story
Pokemon Stadium 2
Dreamland
Smashville
Fountain of Dreamland (Singles) / Temple: M (Doubles)

Counterpicks:
Pokemon Stadium
Rumble Falls
Wario Ware
Jungle Japes
Skyworld
Metal Cavern (Singles) / Dracula's Castle (Doubles)
Yoshi's Island (Singles) / SSE: Jungle (Doubles)

Singles/Doubles choices are mainly made because I feel those stages are too cramped/roomy, even if some of the choices are a bit awkward. But it's a hella easy to remember.

Apparently, the ground on castlevania is smaller than the ground on FD.

SB, isn't FoD bigger than battlefield? If so, theb my only reasoning is that people are bad.

 

[Sneak8288]

If there are too many CP stages, the ruleset may need to allow more than one ban.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Neutrals are so 2010. Get with the full legal stage strike system.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

In my opinion, there's too many stages for that. I fully support it in Melee, though.

 

[Kink-Link5]

BF
SV
FoD
YS
YI
PS1
PS2
DL
HB
WW
GHZ

Ban 2 per player and strike from the 7 remaining to play.

Any additional 2 stages added would just have an additional ban per player.

The only reason any stage should be a "counterpick" is if there are an even number of legal stages.

 

[Strong Badam]

or if there are way too many stages for stage striking to be feasible

 

[Youngling]

Why is a stage not allowed to be played game one but then can be played in any game after? Our counter picking system is so stupid imo.

 

[leelue]

BF
SV
FoD
YS
YI
PS1
PS2
DL
HB
WW
GHZ

Ban 2 per player and strike from the 7 remaining to play.

Any additional 2 stages added would just have an additional ban per player.

The only reason any stage should be a "counterpick" is if there are an even number of legal stages.

If this works the way I imagine it to work, I could get behind a system like this.
Please elaborate.

 

[9Kplus1]

Finally, why is castlevania a counterpick and not a neutral?

Even with the minimized size, Dracula's Castle still encourages camping. Let's not forget that a chunk of the cast gets a neato recovery boost there as well.

 

[GP&B]

Mario, Ike, and Toon Link especially.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Why is a stage not allowed to be played game one but then can be played in any game after? Our counter picking system is so stupid imo.

Because starters are not picked by a single player, but by agreement of BOTH players. That's why they have to be (closer to) neutral. Counterpicks are allowed to be "weird" because they allow the losing play to attempt to tilt the match in their favor by picking unbalanced stages.

Konge Jungle (i hate this stage, though... but i found no objective reason to exclude it)

I don't hate the stage, but this is pretty much my reason for keeping it legal. You could argue about the height of the platforms and camping, but overall I don't think that it's bad enough to ban. And with the ledges, you have a good counterpick against Ike's recovery, which I think is the only legal stage that doesn't have any walls.

 

[leelue]

Even with the minimized size, Dracula's Castle still encourages camping. Let's not forget that a chunk of the cast gets a neato recovery boost there as well.

As the world's most campy player outside of Plank, I don't see Dracastle helping my cause out more than FD would. The platforms are often spaced in such as way that one cannot simply run around on rooftops being a jerk without being easily intercepted by anyone this side of Puff.
At least, not for my character of choice.
The non-triangular layouts slow things down for players who want to camp because they can no longer fluidly traverse the terrain in the way that triangular layouts facilitate.

The only time I see the layout as annoying is when it is set up to be like this:
_
_
_
___
But that's mid-transition. (WTF I can't put multiple spaces before the dashes to make it like up properly? WTH. Oh well it's supposed to be 3 platforms one over another above the middle of the stage.)

Finally, how is the argument "X character gets to do something on Y stage so Y stage is less good than Z stage" any different than "X character doesn't get to do something so Z stage is less good than Y stage" so long as the "something" isn't degenerate?

Ike is an extreme case (Honestly, I'm surprised that QD walljumping wasn't limited in the same way that Mario's was limited), but characters that can walljump are supposed to have that over characters that can't. It's an over the top analogy, but that's like saying the pillars on Luigi's Castle make it a better stage because projectile characters get an unfair boost playing anywhere else.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Lucario also gets a boosted recovery on DC. Don't forget that he can climb walls.

 

[UltiMario]

I don't understand why people ban FoD in doubles? It doesn't lag.

Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't FoD also have the least amount of ground room out of the Battlefield clones?

It just feels too cramped for Doubles. Might be my imagination though.

Apparently, the ground on castlevania is smaller than the ground on FD.

I'm aware, it's the platforms that make it feel too big and cozy for Singles though.

 

[MaxThunder]

A
(WTF I can't put multiple spaces before the dashes to make it like up properly? WTH. Oh well it's supposed to be 3 platforms one over another above the middle of the stage.)

You generally can't on forums... it's so spaces doesn't count towards the word count i guess... to prevent spam...

anyways... you can get an identical effect by putting in dots or something and then putting them to the color "Transparent"...

 

[hotdogturtle]

Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't FoD also have the least amount of ground room out of the Battlefield clones?

It just feels too cramped for Doubles. Might be my imagination though.

Maybe if you're not including Yoshi's Story...

And don't quote me on this, because it might also be my imagination, but I feel like FoD's surface is bigger than Battlefield's.

I think that the size excuse is just a post-ban reason that people made to justify keeping the stage banned, and they forgot that the main/only reason it was banned was the lag in Melee. Melee doubles don't typically ban Yoshi's Story just because it's small, even though it's by far the smallest stage.

 

[leelue]

Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't FoD also have the least amount of ground room out of the Battlefield clones?

It just feels too cramped for Doubles. Might be my imagination though.

It's bigger than battlefield and yoshi's, iirc.

Also, this got buried:

"What are the plans for sonic's aerial forward b oddities? Is some form of the "drop like a rock" mode planned to stay? Is the team aware that the move still shoots you downward w/o a first use on occasion?* Are they aware that sometimes it doesn't shoot you downwards, even when you've used it once?

I like incorporating it into my options a whole lot, and I would be upset to see it go. But like many other things about sonic, it is very inconsistent."

* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FoL1EEeVEQ&feature=plcp&t=2m

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FoL1EEeVEQ&feature=plcp&t=2m

I really like that Ike. Best thing about this game is seeing people getting better as the character metagames unfold.

 

[Vigilante]

A while ago, I hinted that I was working on something called "Project W". Well, it's live now. Here is the IGN hosted Project M Wiki!

http://www.ign.com/wikis/smash-bros-project-m

It has more information than even our own website and it will constantly be under construction. I would like it if you contacted me first before any major contribution. There are things we only want to reveal later like the stage list which isn't quite finalized.