Project M Social Thread

[MacKellarTeam1]

^ Well the difference between snake and diddy's projectiles is diddy's are used for offense. They are follow up projectiles. Snakes are very easy to camp with. If they were stunnades then they'd be like diddy's nanners and a snake user would have to follow up instead of just camp.

 

[JCaesar]

First of all, stop saying Snake was "designed" one way or another. We have no idea what Sakurai had in mind when he made Snake. When you say "it's how he was designed," you mean it's how he's typically played in vBrawl.

Secondly, in vBrawl, Snakes are typically campy, as you all say. Also in vBrawl, DDDs typically chaingrab, ICs typically infinite, Olimars and ROBs typically camp and run away, G&Ws typically spam bair, Warios typically aircamp, Diddys typically spam nanners, and MKs typically ... win. Why should we not remove the gayness as we Meleefy them? Keeping their style more or less intact is one thing, but letting a character be campy just because he's campy in vBrawl seems silly to me.

This isn't specifically about the nade thing, just throwing it out there.

 

[xDD-Master]

I still dont understand the problem about Snake being Campy???

Snake - C4, Mine, Nades, Mortar, Nikita -> Camp lol

I have no problem with limiting his camping options, but he still should be some kind of a campy character. Snake cant camp with only 1 Nade. He may can with having a C4 before him on platform. A mine under the platform. Then throwing nades and inbetween the nades making an up-smash. But well, as I said, it's Snake LOL. But just turn brawl on and see how long it takes for 1 nade to really blow up.

This + Melee's increased overall Speed = Snake can't camp with 1 nade.

In Melee Sheik could needle camp against some characters. Falco was able to laser camp. Samus is as well very projectile based. I still dont see why Snake shouldn't be campy (It shouldn't be broken camping anyway )

I would like to give the 1 nade option a try and see how it works out.


And as for Diddy, Diddy is only so good because the naner gives him that much of options, especially defensive options, because you just cant approach a diddy with a naner in his hand or the chance is high you're going to get hit/combo'd by it :S



Edit: @above: Gaws Bair sucks.
It's much more fun if every character has to be played in a different way. There would be offensive and defensive characters, which seems a lot more fun to me as if there only would be offensive character. There should be ground based and air-based characters. Campy and not-campy characters. Grab-happy and grab-unhappy characters. Characters who have projectiles and characters without. Characters with good and bad recoveries. Characters who spam and some which dont or cant. I think it's more fun to have one character for every option instead of having 40 characters with the same strategies and only having some changes in their movesets. But I guess its Project MELEE so idk :S

Do what you want, it's "your" game, but I as a veteran snake-main can only say, that I dont want to many changes, because other than that, I really love this project, and as I said as well, I have no problem in making his camping less effective, but giving him completely new nades... idk :S
Maybe I should wait until I can test it out... maybe I would like them ^^

 

[GwJ]

Yea, let's promote camping in a melee environment.

 

[GP&B]

Almost every character should be able to effectively play offense and defense. To me, Samus+ (only as an example) is very flexible between offense and defense. I generally force my opponent to approach, but I try to play one hell of a close-combat game especially with her dangerous Nair and good-to-space Fair.

In fact, you already provided how some characters can indeed camp despite having powerful offensive sides (Samus not as much, but still certainly dangerous).

Personally, Snake has a lot of better things to do than specifically camp. His camping side shouldn't be the optimal play style. Neither should an offensive side be his optimal play style. I think he should have a better edge to his camping side like Samus, but still have a good reason to go offensive.

 

[xDD-Master]

Yea, let's promote camping in a melee environment.

I never promoted camping, I just dont promote too drastic changes.

It's like the Melee-Veterans want their old characters back, so I wouldnt like too many changes to my main (Snake :o)

And again I can only say, that I think Snake cant really nade-camp with only one nade.

 

[A Diamond For Disease]

unfortunately i'm like the only one who wants no-grabbing the ledge while facing the wrong way.......

Not that I am anybody but I don't want that either.

 

[I R MarF]

I still dont understand the problem about Snake being Campy???

Snake - C4, Mine, Nades, Mortar, Nikita -> Camp lol

I have no problem with limiting his camping options, but he still should be some kind of a campy character. Snake cant camp with only 1 Nade. He may can with having a C4 before him on platform. A mine under the platform. Then throwing nades and inbetween the nades making an up-smash. But well, as I said, it's Snake LOL. But just turn brawl on and see how long it takes for 1 nade to really blow up.

This + Melee's increased overall Speed = Snake can't camp with 1 nade.

In Melee Sheik could needle camp against some characters. Falco was able to laser camp. Samus is as well very projectile based. I still dont see why Snake shouldn't be campy (It shouldn't be broken camping anyway )

I would like to give the 1 nade option a try and see how it works out.


And as for Diddy, Diddy is only so good because the naner gives him that much of options, especially defensive options, because you just cant approach a diddy with a naner in his hand or the chance is high you're going to get hit/combo'd by it :S



Edit: @above: Gaws Bair sucks.
It's much more fun if every character has to be played in a different way. There would be offensive and defensive characters, which seems a lot more fun to me as if there only would be offensive character. There should be ground based and air-based characters. Campy and not-campy characters. Grab-happy and grab-unhappy characters. Characters who have projectiles and characters without. Characters with good and bad recoveries. Characters who spam and some which dont or cant. I think it's more fun to have one character for every option instead of having 40 characters with the same strategies and only having some changes in their movesets. But I guess its Project MELEE so idk :S

Do what you want, it's "your" game, but I as a veteran snake-main can only say, that I dont want to many changes, because other than that, I really love this project, and as I said as well, I have no problem in making his camping less effective, but giving him completely new nades... idk :S
Maybe I should wait until I can test it out... maybe I would like them ^^

Okay, the one nade is basically what I said before... I just said have a cool down period which would prevent any spamming whatsoever, if you got a new nade upon detonation (don't know if that is what you meant, but what I assume) you could still cook a grenade, toss it, it blows up, immediately toss another... and if P: M goes the short fues route that'll be a broken disaster. A cooldown is the best choice.

Secondly, pretty much anyone who is good with Falco in melee uses lasers for shield pressure, its an approach, not a camp. You can't win a game camping with Falco because the lasers have fixed knockback. (Basically the same story with Shiek too)

And neither of those characters can do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh6xWF21Zao

and JCaesar was right, I was wrong to say Snake was intended to camp. However, considering Snake's moveset, I do believe Sakurai intended players to get crafty and to utilize the advantage of being "several places at once".

IMO, contact explosive stun grenades with a cooldown period is the best bet (lol, sorry thats like the third time I said it) and I understand how you like Snake the way he is, xDD-Master, since he is your main... but Melee is a gentlemen's game, where camping isn't the top strat.

 

[Shell]

Please, no more Snake speculation until we're done with the rebuild. Thank you.

 

[xDD-Master]

Please, no more Snake speculation until we're done with the rebuild. Thank you.

k k

Then I have a "question" about Wolf... I think. Fox and Falco are a lot more similar in melee than they are in Brawl. So I guess, will Wolf also be more "clony" to them? I think of horizontal Side-B, Fire Up-B and a momentum stopping Down-B.

I could see Wolf as a really cool character in both ways (Fox/Falco like or Brawl-Like), so I'm just asking what plans you have on him ?

Sorry if this was asked several times before, a short answer would be enough.

 

[stingers]

characters that could reverse grab in melee should be able to do it here too...

 

[humble]

Talking about Wolf, is his shine gonna have fixed knockback?

EDIT: What characters besides Snake will be getting rebuilds/changes? I know everyone is getting minor changes, but what about major ones?

 

[mhenlo]

any projected release date?

 

[Shell]

No projected release date.

All of the Brawl characters are getting varying levels of rebuilding. The degree of change depends upon your reference point, very different from Brawl and not as far from Brawl+.l Right now the most coherent Brawl characters are probably Lucas, Ike, Sonic, and Toon/Young Link.

 

[Akuma2120]

BAD + FFing + Melee Gravity with Fox/Falco. Imagine that, but now imagine them shining when they hit the ground so grabs are impossible or shielding your punishments.

Didn't think of that, maybe because I use Link and the hookshot can grab from a distance, but the wouldn't you just attack after they do a shine? If they do it enough to become predictable I mean, eh I see your point anyways

 

[L/A/W]

they fall very quickly
with a BAD and their ff's it is clearly a great defensive option, also this is project m, i'm glad the BAD idea was cut as it was a poor one imo

 

[xDD-Master]

BAD = No Wavedash = No real Escape from landing traps = Better Combo/Juggle Escape

MAD = Wavedash = Harder Escape from Juggles

Both are good and have there positive and negative aspects.


What Dr. Pepper said was wrong since landing requires landing frames, not much though.

I still think it would be interesting to have 2 types of dodgers, or like someone else said, that you could choose which version you want. Isnt there some kind of possiblity to set this to a taunt maybe?
UpTaunt = BAD; Down-Taunt = MAD.
Would be kinda **** :D

Is the melee air dodge code based or is it .pac based? If it's the second I'm 10.000% sure it would be possible.

 

[ValTroX]

Melee AD....that's all. We are not looking for overly defensive tactics, IMHO MAD is the ONLY way to go

 

[humble]

What was the HA buff to sonic?

 

[kaizo13]

i don't know the details, but from what i've seen in the streams the start up is alot faster and the homing is more acurate. plus i think you can cancel it into aerials

side b>HA = 2good

 

[thesage]

So I played Peach in P:M last weekend and this is what I thought of her:

So Sloooow. She moves really really really slow. I felt like I was playing melee Peach on molasses. All her movement things like float and initial dash need to be faster.

All of her aerials feel weird to me when they hit.

Turnips need to be fixed massively. When they hit shields or are outprioritized they need to bounce. The
pulling up animation needs to be faster.

Can you wallride with side-b? If you can't give her brawl side-b. The move's ****ty anyways so I don't really care.

Peach's cg on Falco is much easier to do than melee's. It's basically guaranteed until like 80. Afterwards, because of Peach's slowness she can't really combo out of it.

F-throw is too powerful, but maybe the people I played weren't di'ing correctly.

D-tilt is fail. Make it melee d-tilt.

D-smash needs to come back in full melee form. It's just not Peach otherwise.

Her f-smash has too much range and looks disproportionate. She's not Marth... Liked that you kept the sequential f-smashes from brawl+.

Her dj has to go higher, otherwise she will not be able to edgeguard off the stage like she could in melee. I personally think you should force her to djc so that way offstage edgeguarding takes more skill and you can't do things like dj -> rising bair -> float back onto stage. Plus it would make her recovery too good.

I can't comment of fc'ing since the different landing times of brawl and melee make it awkward for me to time it... Let alone the fact that I'm bad at shield pressuring with fc'ing in melee.

Outside of side-b and maybe f-tilt? Don't take anything from brawl Peach. Brawl Peach is a ****ty slower version of melee Peach.

REMOVE ZELDA'S UPSMASH. IT'S SO DUMB AND MAKES MATCHES VS. HER EVEN MORE BORING THAN USUAL. IT FORCED ME TO PLATFORM CAMP. SO DUMB.

On a more general note:

The timing for a lot of things are different. When I tried to dash attack with Peach, she kept doing f-smash. I know I sometimes mess up the timing in melee and do dash attack, but it was like every time I did dash attack.

Z in the air must be for attacks, so many people I know mentioned how important this is. I also noticed it was weird catching turnips with Z cuz I would catch them and airdodge...

Powershielding projectiles needs to be fixed. I brawl powershielded falco's lasers three times in one match.

Don't go for brawl+'s aim of making everybody melee dk good. That just makes really simple one dimensional characters that are really repetitive.

I remember somebody posting that they want melee players to play P:M right after playing melee and not feel a big difference. That's not what I felt at all...

I realize this is a beta, just saying what I thought.

That's all I remember for now... I might try P:M again if jceaser brings it to another tournament. Please try to get the timing of moving as close to melee as possible.

 

[I R MarF]

Melee AD....that's all. We are not looking for overly defensive tactics, IMHO MAD is the ONLY way to go

^^Truth.

While Brawl Airdodge DOES have a couple advantages; those advantages simply don't work in a Melee setting. Good DI (or owning instead of being owned) should be your best defense.

 

[shanus]

So I played Peach in P:M last weekend and this is what I thought of her:

So Sloooow. She moves really really really slow. I felt like I was playing melee Peach on molasses. All her movement things like float and initial dash need to be faster.

All of her aerials feel weird to me when they hit.

Turnips need to be fixed massively. When they hit shields or are outprioritized they need to bounce. The
pulling up animation needs to be faster.

Can you wallride with side-b? If you can't give her brawl side-b. The move's ****ty anyways so I don't really care.

Peach's cg on Falco is much easier to do than melee's. It's basically guaranteed until like 80. Afterwards, because of Peach's slowness she can't really combo out of it.

F-throw is too powerful, but maybe the people I played weren't di'ing correctly.

D-tilt is fail. Make it melee d-tilt.

D-smash needs to come back in full melee form. It's just not Peach otherwise.

Her f-smash has too much range and looks disproportionate. She's not Marth... Liked that you kept the sequential f-smashes from brawl+.

Her dj has to go higher, otherwise she will not be able to edgeguard off the stage like she could in melee. I personally think you should force her to djc so that way offstage edgeguarding takes more skill and you can't do things like dj -> rising bair -> float back onto stage. Plus it would make her recovery too good.

I can't comment of fc'ing since the different landing times of brawl and melee make it awkward for me to time it... Let alone the fact that I'm bad at shield pressuring with fc'ing in melee.

Outside of side-b and maybe f-tilt? Don't take anything from brawl Peach. Brawl Peach is a ****ty slower version of melee Peach.

REMOVE ZELDA'S UPSMASH. IT'S SO DUMB AND MAKES MATCHES VS. HER EVEN MORE BORING THAN USUAL. IT FORCED ME TO PLATFORM CAMP. SO DUMB.

On a more general note:

The timing for a lot of things are different. When I tried to dash attack with Peach, she kept doing f-smash. I know I sometimes mess up the timing in melee and do dash attack, but it was like every time I did dash attack.

Z in the air must be for attacks, so many people I know mentioned how important this is. I also noticed it was weird catching turnips with Z cuz I would catch them and airdodge...

Powershielding projectiles needs to be fixed. I brawl powershielded falco's lasers three times in one match.

Don't go for brawl+'s aim of making everybody melee dk good. That just makes really simple one dimensional characters that are really repetitive.

I remember somebody posting that they want melee players to play P:M right after playing melee and not feel a big difference. That's not what I felt at all...

I realize this is a beta, just saying what I thought.

That's all I remember for now... I might try P:M again if jceaser brings it to another tournament. Please try to get the timing of moving as close to melee as possible.

You have to realize the time investment of this project. We keep it in the hands of select players because it takes a LONG time to get every move, all the physics, of each character to feel like melee. We have only a few characters where we want to them to be, and peach certainly isn't one of them. We have spent maybe 3 hours total on peach, and most of it was focused on getting her a good working float cancel and placing the correct iasa frames or general hitbox durations on her moves. She'll get attention when we get to her.....

 

[JCaesar]

Is the melee air dodge code based or is it .pac based? If it's the second I'm 10.000% sure it would be possible.

In America that means you're 10% sure

There is no way BAD is returning though in any form. Go play Brawl+ if you wanna see how shallow it makes the combo/string game. BAD is just bad.

 

[shanus]

BAD = No Wavedash = No real Escape from landing traps = Better Combo/Juggle Escape

MAD = Wavedash = Harder Escape from Juggles

Both are good and have there positive and negative aspects.


What Dr. Pepper said was wrong since landing requires landing frames, not much though.

I still think it would be interesting to have 2 types of dodgers, or like someone else said, that you could choose which version you want. Isnt there some kind of possiblity to set this to a taunt maybe?
UpTaunt = BAD; Down-Taunt = MAD.
Would be kinda **** :D

Is the melee air dodge code based or is it .pac based? If it's the second I'm 10.000% sure it would be possible.

Considering the first code I programmed was HAD where neutral press would be a BAD it is easily possible. Would I do it though? No chance in hell.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Just gonna quickly say that the stun grenade idea is kinda sexy. Non-lethal runs were the most rewarding in the Metal Gear Solid series, and the stun grenade were the go-to grenade for this playstyle.

 

[Bandit]

REMOVE ZELDA'S UPSMASH. IT'S SO DUMB AND MAKES MATCHES VS. HER EVEN MORE BORING THAN USUAL. IT FORCED ME TO PLATFORM CAMP. SO DUMB.

Haha! Play better! Wait till you face me.

 

[Sora-kun]

Check out the Brawl Tactical Discussion forum. You'll lose all hope in humanity.

You people had hope in humanity before? HA!

 

[Sterowent]

Shanus, Shell, Phantom Wings, Dantarion, Kryal, RandomTBrush, Mewtwo2000, Bero ("A New Hope").

that's a heavy injection of hope. this thread's swimming in it

 

[xDD-Master]

In America that means you're 10% sure

There is no way BAD is returning though in any form. Go play Brawl+ if you wanna see how shallow it makes the combo/string game. BAD is just bad.

Spoiler

**** xD OK Then 10,000% xD

Considering the first code I programmed was HAD where neutral press would be a BAD it is easily possible. Would I do it though? No chance in hell.

It's totally OK for me, since I like BOTH games and BOTH air dodges

You could still put it in, but in tournaments it could easily being banned (No UpTaunts at all... ok I would change the Taunt-Activations, since melee only had uptaunt ^^ so then: No D-Taunts )

But tbh i dont really care, since like I already said, I'm happy with both, I just thought it could an very interesting aspect


Other than that I totally support P:M and I like it already


Oh and you didnt answered if all the non-physic changes are .pac-wise (The ADs for example), since then I would like to try original brawl Snake/MK by myself

 

[shanus]

Spoiler

**** xD OK Then 10,000% xD

It's totally OK for me, since I like BOTH games and BOTH air dodges

You could still put it in, but in tournaments it could easily being banned (No UpTaunts at all... ok I would change the Taunt-Activations, since melee only had uptaunt ^^ so then: No D-Taunts )

But tbh i dont really care, since like I already said, I'm happy with both, I just thought it could an very interesting aspect


Other than that I totally support P:M and I like it already


Oh and you didnt answered if all the non-physic changes are .pac-wise (The ADs for example), since then I would like to try original brawl Snake/MK by myself

No a lot are code based

 

[humble]

Shanus, what ideas are you currently exploring to change landing detection?

 

[Sora-kun]

random questions(don't ***** that i'm asking e.e)

bombs. will link get the ones with the smaller explosion back? (plz say yes =_= the bigger explosion fails.)

will link's grab be returned to melee length?

i assume his f air and n air will be returned so i won't even ask

which b air is he getting? melee or brawl =/

will link's d tilt spike be modded to more usefullness? or will it remain the same?

will the stupid as hell dead zone in his dsmash be fixed? <_<

are his arrows gonna have melee range?


last but not least... buffer (inb4riot)

don't hurt me ._.

 

[GP&B]

random questions(don't ***** that i'm asking e.e)

bombs. will link get the ones with the smaller explosion back? (plz say yes =_= the bigger explosion fails.)

will link's grab be returned to melee length?

i assume his f air and n air will be returned so i won't even ask

which b air is he getting? melee or brawl =/

will link's d tilt spike be modded to more usefullness? or will it remain the same?

will the stupid as hell dead zone in his dsmash be fixed? <_<

are his arrows gonna have melee range?


last but not least... buffer (inb4riot)

don't hurt me ._.

Can't answer.

Hoping for the same thing.

Yeah, it's all been done already.

Melee easily. It gave Link a full hop Dair -> DJ -> aerial which is far better.

No idea at the rest and lol@ the last one.

 

[Strong Badam]

thesage: what you played wasn't even a beta. it was an alpha. it's no where near completion.
also what shanus said.

 

[thesage]

Shanus I know how long this project is going to be. I just wanted to say what I picked up on. The different timing of f-smash/dash attack, the z button, and landing detection are the most important things you guys need to work on right now.

Good job so far though.

I personally believe you guys should just remake melee in brawl (like the brawl characters should not be on the char select screen). Then you balance them. Then you slowly add in brawl characters...

 

[cobaltblue]

^And that alone would take near a year with all the things that have to tested and tweaked. In which case they might as well just continue with the current approach of working on chars one at a time and keeping everything closed off except to pros rather than handing it off to the public that can't comprehend alpha/beta != finished.

 

[thesage]

It'd take longer but the result would be better IMO. =/

 

[phi1ny3]

If I may add a suggestion, could you make Lucario's Aura Sphere charge cancelable with R/L w/o having to air dodge ONLY in the air? Kinda like what you can do with Diddy's popgun and Mewtwo's Shadow Ball charge in Melee.

 

[Sora-kun]

Can't answer.

Hoping for the same thing.

Yeah, it's all been done already.

Melee easily. It gave Link a full hop Dair -> DJ -> aerial which is far better.

No idea at the rest and lol@ the last one.

you sir have my respect for not flipping out <_<



edit: can you guys PLEASE make it so d airs from link and TL don't bounce of shields? <_< it was like that in melee and TL's bouncing off is so **** stupid (especially in B+ where it's near unpunishable)

not that it'll make too much a difference e.e shield stun + l cancel = it won't matter too much. i'm just saying