Project M Social Thread

[GHNeko]

hey guys what's up

 

[tripwire]

I also agree with zelda, though i could see her having bad matchups with... someone. Marth perhaps? I'm not sure.

Doesn't Zelda outrange Marth ground to ground. Fireballs on the edge annoyances, strong *** back throw, mad priority and grab range.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Not quite.

Mar mar was Zelda's worst nightmare in Melee and Mar Mar is still difficult for her.

 

[9Kplus1]

HOLY **** IT'S NEKO

yo son you still confirmed for jc's President's Day P:M fest?

also, seeing as how you're not posting from a phone... it's safe to assume that you finally have a new laptop, right? good stuff

Also, 9k, if Rob is above you, can't he fly away left and right? That, and I'm not afraid of going under most characters now that I think about it.

ROB should still be in hitstun or not in a position to (quickly) react if he's above you. Plus, his booster isn't "frame 1" fast.

 

[CSDragon]

Toon Link will always have a bad recovery as long as I have a say. Balls out.

Isn't TL supposed to be Link with shorter ranges and better recovery? I mean, the guy had one of the highest attack-up-b's in v-Brawl (meaning not counting Snake, Sonic, Rob and Pit). Why would you even pick a TL with bad recovery?

 

[leelue]

Ground to ground? I'm unfamiliar with the term. If it is literally "on the ground" then I don't think so.

Also, 9k, the character unfamiliarity that I hear ever so often can only account for but so much. The same learning curve should apply to the efficacy of the player using them. After the 35th time that a character beats you, unfamilarity starts applying less and less.

 

[tripwire]

Ground to ground? I'm unfamiliar with the term. If it is literally "on the ground" then I don't think so.

Also, 9k, the character unfamiliarity that I hear ever so often can only account for but so much. The same learning curve should apply to the efficacy of the player using them. After the 35th time that a character beats you, unfamilarity starts applying less and less.

yeah sorry on the ground was a better way to say that. But I swear Zelda's Jab and Fsmash are long as hell.

 

[GHNeko]

HOLY **** IT'S NEKO

yo son you still confirmed for jc's President's Day P:M fest?

also, seeing as how you're not posting from a phone... it's safe to assume that you finally have a new laptop, right? good stuff


ROB should still be in hitstun or not in a position to (quickly) react if he's above you. Plus, his booster isn't "frame 1" fast.

posting from my wife's laptop.

and yeah ill be there this weekend.

hopefully friday, and not saturday lol.

 

[leelue]

9k, how many characters in the cast don't have this weakness? Because from what i know Rob is just as succeptable to being above other characters as at least half a third of the cast, and that is rather generous. Add into that the occasions where he isn't directly above someone and he now can boost away.

Peach is the best example of this weakness (luigi has it really badly too) but they both have scary nairs to be fair to your argument.

 

[Shadic]

Isn't TL supposed to be Link with shorter ranges and better recovery? I mean, the guy had one of the highest attack-up-b's in v-Brawl (meaning not counting Snake, Sonic, Rob and Pit). Why would you even pick a TL with bad recovery?

Toon Link has several attributes from Smash64 Link. His aerial UpB is one of them.

He's got a great on-stage game, he can kill well, and he has a bad recovery. He's a pretty interesting character.

 

[leelue]

Despite my apparent views to the contrary, I do think Rob is rather fair. I'd say he's about as good as captain falcon, give or take a spot.
I obv dont know for sure.

Also, I like toon link a lot. I wish he had a mote less kill power, but I still don't know the character as well as pedobear or shadic do.

 

[JCaesar]

Second jumps jump on frame 1, and most sex kick nairs come out on frame 3-5ish at the latest (Luigi's comes out on frame 2 I believe). ROB's side-B doesn't even start moving until frame 6, has no invincibility, and costs him 1/3 of his recovery if he gets hit out of it that he can't get back until he lands. ROB also has fairly combo-able gravity (before Umbreon throws a ****-fit, this was a fairly recent adjustment) and his aerials cover his bottom side very poorly. He also has a mediocre shield (good shieldgrab range though).

 

[Mattnumbers]

I agree with IRMarf, at least about Zelda. I'm not sure about ROB, but I see his point nevertheless.

At the very least Zelda should have her teleport nerfed so that it doesn't almost completely negate her slow movement speed. Right now it's ridiculously fast, has a hitbox at the end, AND you can AD out of it at any time. Then she has Nayru's which reflects projectiles and is land cancellable so you HAVE to approach her, but she has Dins to make it hard to approach. And when you do get in.....she can just teleport to the other side of the stage and reset the situation.

 

[GP&B]

Unless it was changed, I thought Farore's Wind could only be AD canceled after reappearing and only when using it on the ground (or was it in the air?).

 

[Kink-Link5]

Wait Farore still has that end hitbox? Yeah that should go. It was beneficiary in Demo 1, but the current build doesn't need it and it only acts as another stupidly safe move for her.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

although i find it odd that one can write so much about a game they havent even played yet, i'd say irmarf's general statement is pretty correct. i don't really like broad white washing of moveset buffs, i like seeing characters fit into niches.

thank you for the compliments on snake's design in demo1, btw. we wanted him to be a tactical and a difficult to use character. he's gotten some straight buffs from demo1 because many of us feel like he needed a good bread and butter game so that snake didn't have to camp as much. he still gets completely wrecked if someone gets in on him though, trust me.

which brings me to another topic: what will a character look at their lamest? with lots of money on the line, what kind of dreary, repetitive playstyle will be abuseable? it was always something kept in mind when i designed a character. i always felt like tournament games are popular because of the audience. without an interested audience, competitive games won't have anyone to watch it and garner the hype. if the audience is bored with seeing a certain character play, then your game will lose viewers. so i always took measures to try to make a character that the audience would love to watch. i almost never considered where this character would fit on the tierlist. (the characters i had some hand in the designing of are snake, bowser, zss, charizard, a little bit of squirtle and ness, lucario and ike)

unfortunately not everyone in the BR agrees with designing a playstyle before worrying about tier stats so you're going to see a lot of just straight buffs to the demo2 characters and overall a lot of just good moves spread among the cast. i've recently bowed out of project M development because of disagreements with how design is dealt with (but mostly because of school/career related reasonings) but hopefully whatever happens to the characters along the way, they'll be applying whatever feedback from demo2 onto characters in demos/patches in the future.

 

[Mattnumbers]

She only can AD out of upB from the ground, but that's when you'd be using it if you were camping. I think it only has the end hitbox from the ground as well, but once again, that's where you would be using it to run away.

Endlag should be increased significantly and AD cancel should be removed, I think in that case the end hitbox would be ok.

EDIT: Zelda at her lamest is one of the biggest worries I have when it comes to P:M Jiang.

 

[leelue]

Zelda still has the poof at the end while in the air. I don't really mind it so much to be honest. If the move had a few (idk how many) more start up frames, then it'd be much easier to swallow.

Almost all OP issues can be solved with more frames, I guess


Does peach's ffParasol have more landing lag than I'm used to or is it just me?

 

[ph00tbag]

It can be difficult to say definitively what a character's weakness is, especially when their opponent is doing nothing to expose it. Nothing about ROB's weakness to juggling has been changed, aside from the fact that now he has the option give up a lot of positioning in order to get away. Nonetheless, characters like ZSS, MK, Marth, Falcon and the like should all still give him worlds of trouble once they get him in the air.

Zelda's not too likely to get exposed by Wolf, but characters who can dash dance into and out of her effective Melee and projectile ranges will be able to take considerable advantage of her poor mobility. Characters with good KO power will be even more effective against the character.

Now, I'm not really saying the characters don't need to be nerfed. I'm just saying they aren't really the best examples of characters with no weaknesses. Lucas circa G6 on the other hand...

 

[leelue]

Zelda's not too likely to get exposed by Wolf, but characters who can dash dance into and out of her effective Melee and projectile ranges will be able to take considerable advantage of her poor mobility. Characters with good KO power will be even more effective against the character.

That last statement is about as universal as humanly possible

They were also saying that her teleport shenanigans nullify her poor mobility.

For a character with as many options as zelda, I don't know how much of a problem dding would be if the zelda player was patient. She can even counter-mindgame your mindgame by teleporting 55-60% of battlefield and appearing anywhere doing anything at varying times.

 

[ph00tbag]

I do think Farore's Wind could stand to be nerfed. But even so, it usually comes down to a mix-up if her opponent isn't overcommitting to everything, which they shouldn't be doing anyway.

 

[leelue]

Could you clarify, if possible?

 

[drsusredfish]

oh snap i got here just in time. people attacking my zelda. counter arguments on the way.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

which brings me to another topic: what will a character look at their lamest? with lots of money on the line, what kind of dreary, repetitive playstyle will be abuseable? it was always something kept in mind when i designed a character. i always felt like tournament games are popular because of the audience. without an interested audience, competitive games won't have anyone to watch it and garner the hype. if the audience is bored with seeing a certain character play, then your game will lose viewers. so i always took measures to try to make a character that the audience would love to watch. i almost never considered where this character would fit on the tierlist.

Honestly I'd say this is about as important as game balance. Even if Brawl didn't have MK and Snake whomping on everyone, it would still be floaty, slow, and boring a good 95% of the time. If more Melee tourneys were like the Apex 2012 GF I'm sure the game wouldn't be as popular. At the end of the day, P:M needs balance, but it also needs wombo combos.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Snake isn't even second on the tier list, he's behind Diddy....

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Snake also doesn't "whomp" on everyone, he's no worse than Melee Falco is balance-wise imo.

That said he's a lot worse than Falco design-wise. Though Falco hella dumb.

 

[Strong Badam]

Second jumps jump on frame 1, and most sex kick nairs come out on frame 3-5ish at the latest (Luigi's comes out on frame 2 I believe). ROB's side-B doesn't even start moving until frame 6, has no invincibility, and costs him 1/3 of his recovery if he gets hit out of it that he can't get back until he lands. ROB also has fairly combo-able gravity (before Umbreon throws a ****-fit, this was a fairly recent adjustment) and his aerials cover his bottom side very poorly. He also has a mediocre shield (good shieldgrab range though).

No non-jab or special move hits before frame 3.

 

[phurgawtin]

Last time I saw Charizard on a stream was in december on one of Peef's streams.

He have an aerial down+B or anything else new/different lately?

 

[Kink-Link5]

I wonder what Zelda would look like with Clarice's 4C frame data on her F-tilt.

 

[Strong Badam]

Aerial Down-B causes Charizard to glide.

 

[Evilagram]

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but a friend of mine suggested an interesting idea.

What if respawn invincibility was canceled by attacking? Similar to a first person shooter.

Opinions? Could this be created as an optional code or something?

 

[Deleted member]

lol @ zelda having weaknesses.

zelda isn't the best character, but she's definitely up there.

except in teams, where she is the best character. far and away actually.

you need a very good reason not to have 1 of your 2 characters as a zelda for teams (unless you're being nice to your opponents).

 

[kaizo13]

Aerial Down-B causes Charizard to glide.

word?

like...insta-glide or normal glide?

 

[drsusredfish]

Wait Farore still has that end hitbox? Yeah that should go. It was beneficiary in Demo 1, but the current build doesn't need it and it only acts as another stupidly safe move for her.

That last statement is about as universal as humanly possible

They were also saying that her teleport shenanigans nullify her poor mobility.

For a character with as many options as zelda, I don't know how much of a problem dding would be if the zelda player was patient. She can even counter-mindgame your mindgame by teleporting 55-60% of battlefield and appearing anywhere doing anything at varying times.

Zeldas teleports aren't all that safe. It attacks on i think frame 10 and only attacks for like 2frames. intangibility starts on like frame 32. teleports do negate her poor mobility but thats like saying shine shouldnt make falco pause in the air cuase it negates his fast falling or yoshi shouldn't have armor on his second jump cause it negates his lack of a recovering up b or bowser shouldn't be able to L-cancel casuse he sposed to be slow. You are supposed to cover up your characters weaknesses.

an opponent who is taking the initiative can get at zelda. Her nayru land cancel can be sheild grabed nayru is difficult to deal with but not imposible. i think the hit box's on nayru have been shrunk further exposing her upper and lower parts. i cant begin to tell you how many times i've been knee'd or naired out of my nayru and the opponent only taking 1% damage. And swords go through nayru. Ike is going to be hard for zelda.

You dont play against zelda as if you going to combo her to death you have to bait her out, poke her, and put her in bad positions. being under zelda is one of the best gameplans. Its not a glamorous way to fight but thats how its done.

I agree that the reappering attack part of up b needs more cool down time since she can AD out of her ground version. It should not be safe on sheild. but the attack should not be taken out.

Zeldas new dins look more dangerous but with no cancelability its uttility is dependent on how you react to them. learn how they work and their timmings and you should be better off. I did notice that sheilding a dins gets rid of the lingering hit box but not the explosion. use that to ur advatage. sheild the din and continue ur attack but just keep the explosion time in mind.

 

[ph00tbag]

Could you clarify, if possible?

Essentially, as long as her opponent isn't doing something punishable when Zelda does FW to get into a good position, she still has to guess what their response is to FW. The fact that Zelda has the option to start a mix-up from almost anywhere on the stage could be nerf-worthy, but then, it's definitely not the lamest thing in the game, either.

 

[Jonny Westside]

Ah Charizard goes into a glide when one uses down B while in the air, that's pretty cool. I was thinking of making him flap his wings harder for another boost in the air, but that would make his recovery godlike wouldn't it?

word?

like...insta-glide or normal glide?

LOL you're avatar goes hand in hand with this

 

[phurgawtin]

Aerial Down-B causes Charizard to glide.

Sexy.

Spoiler

10chars

 

[hotdogturtle]

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but a friend of mine suggested an interesting idea.

What if respawn invincibility was canceled by attacking? Similar to a first person shooter.

Opinions? Could this be created as an optional code or something?

Why would you want to do that when you could use your invicibility to attack safely?

 

[Mattnumbers]

I doubt it would be optional HDT

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm pretty sure respawn invincibility is one of the least unbalanced "issues," a word I use with the most lenient value :V