Project M Social Thread

[GHNeko]

dont quote me. i really dont know LOL

its a wild guess.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Diddy is most dangerous when he is holding a banana and there is another one sitting somewhere limiting the options the opponent has to get out of the way of the banana diddy will eventually throw at them.

That is what makes his game so intricate, only having one banana seems like he is a limited in his options and that pulling and controlling that 1 banana is more a inconvience then a reward.

But what do I know, just my opinion on it.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

If you want to see examples of what could be considered trolling, then check out my posts on the DDD boards from 2009.

http://www.smashboards.com/search.php?searchid=5019659
I got this far and got lazy. Do you want to point out any gems?

 

[MonkUnit]

@ diddy's banana limit, i think it was a change that was done early on in PM to avoid having banana locks or something. not really sure

 

[JCaesar]

ROB can do some crazy **** with just 1 gyro. 2 just encourages camping rather than approaching.

 

[9Kplus1]

Snake is able to camp efficiently with his grenades, even with their explosion time having been moved up considerably. Matter of fact, lessening, if not eliminating the need to cook grenades is more than enough justification behind giving Snake access to only one nade' at a time; I'm not going to mention that Snake can still effectively squeeze grenades into his current playstyle. Conversely, Diddy uses his better projectile, banana peels, in a more complex manner -- meaning offensively, defensively, and anything in between -- as opposed to simply camping with them. Giving Diddy access to only two banana peels wouldn't be overpowering, especially considering that tech mix-ups *can* prevent Diddy from having an overwhelming, if not completely broken pressure game. In fact, with Melee physics and attributes having been applied to several universal aspects (e.g powershielding), as well as the myriad of buffs that many characters have received in order to deal with projectiles, Diddy's banana peels shouldn't be that much of a problem.

Many characters of the Melee cast (not using P:M as an example because of "Dr." Lucas) have a solid pressure game, but boast different pressure styles. To be more specific (and to save time), faster characters (spacies, Falcon, etc) utilize their mobility and fast options in order to pressure the opposition; on the other hand, characters such as Peach are better suited for 'stationary' pressure -- pressure that doesn't really use much movement. I believe that Diddy can have a very good an unique pressure game with at least two banana peels. Granted, Diddy's pressure style will be more similar to Peach's, but due to noticeably worse shield pressure options (powershield --> grab should melt Diddy, similarly to how it melts Falco), he will be more reliant on utilizing his great glide toss, in order to keep himself safe. Moreover, giving Diddy more options for stage control and pressure will lessen the amount of changes that will inevitably be made to his moveset; i.e, Diddy won't need compensation for much. While it isn't the best or brightest idea to leave Diddy with a moveset close to his vBrawl iteration, it's much better that he retains a unique feel over the cast, instead of becoming a stock character with a really good projectile -- and no, I'm not just referring to his nanners.

Diddy is a technical character in vBrawl, so I don't see why that should change in P:M. If the new banana pick-up physics are kept, it's going to be difficult to pick Diddy up as a character, let alone use him to his full potential. Lucario:M actually corresponds to how much precision and technical skill a Diddy:M (with access to two banana peels at once) main would need.

 

[GHNeko]

sooo

what you're saying is...


you want diddy to be really ****ing dumb?


because even if you can tech tripping, 2 nanas still > tech tripping. big time. because diddy can just wait lol.

 

[9Kplus1]

It's something to experiment with, at least. That argument can be made for many characters that can set up tech chases, honestly. One could even argue that Ganon is ridiculous, because after Gerudo, he too "can just wait". In addition, the option to teching is up to the player -- Diddy cannot force this. The average human has a reaction time of 12 frames, meaning that the Diddy player has to be on point and faster than usual in order to catch someone on a tech roll. Then again, I'm hoping and assuming that Diddy's dash speed will be lowered in the near future. Even without nanners, Diddy with that fast of a dash is ridiculous, which is pretty bad. Diddy shouldn't be able to get the advantage without using his nanners much at all. Anyway, getting back on track... Diddy, with nerfs in the appropriate areas, should get two banana peels. Such an action will benefit Diddy's metagame in the long run, as he becomes a character with much more depth. This is mostly because players will be focused on optimizing Diddy's strongest (and best) tools in his arsenal.

 

[Juushichi]

But with being able to tech it and stuff, two banana's should be fine.

 

[I R MarF]

Snake is able to camp efficiently with his grenades, even with their explosion time having been moved up considerably. Matter of fact, lessening, if not eliminating the need to cook grenades is more than enough justification behind giving Snake access to only one nade' at a time; I'm not going to mention that Snake can still effectively squeeze grenades into his current playstyle. Conversely, Diddy uses his better projectile, banana peels, in a more complex manner -- meaning offensively, defensively, and anything in between -- as opposed to simply camping with them. Giving Diddy access to only two banana peels wouldn't be overpowering, especially considering that tech mix-ups *can* prevent Diddy from having an overwhelming, if not completely broken pressure game. In fact, with Melee physics and attributes having been applied to several universal aspects (e.g powershielding), as well as the myriad of buffs that many characters have received in order to deal with projectiles, Diddy's banana peels shouldn't be that much of a problem.

Many characters of the Melee cast (not using P:M as an example because of "Dr." Lucas) have a solid pressure game, but boast different pressure styles. To be more specific (and to save time), faster characters (spacies, Falcon, etc) utilize their mobility and fast options in order to pressure the opposition; on the other hand, characters such as Peach are better suited for 'stationary' pressure -- pressure that doesn't really use much movement. I believe that Diddy can have a very good an unique pressure game with at least two banana peels. Granted, Diddy's pressure style will be more similar to Peach's, but due to noticeably worse shield pressure options (powershield --> grab should melt Diddy, similarly to how it melts Falco), he will be more reliant on utilizing his great glide toss, in order to keep himself safe. Moreover, giving Diddy more options for stage control and pressure will lessen the amount of changes that will inevitably be made to his moveset; i.e, Diddy won't need compensation for much. While it isn't the best or brightest idea to leave Diddy with a moveset close to his vBrawl iteration, it's much better that he retains a unique feel over the cast, instead of becoming a stock character with a really good projectile -- and no, I'm not just referring to his nanners.

Diddy is a technical character in vBrawl, so I don't see why that should change in P:M. If the new banana pick-up physics are kept, it's going to be difficult to pick Diddy up as a character, let alone use him to his full potential. Lucario:M actually corresponds to how much precision and technical skill a Diddy:M (with access to two banana peels at once) main would need.

I like the idea of Diddy being a technical character, he has a lot of potential "teching" traps with his bananas and i think it'd be great if he was a perfect blend of cleverness and technical skill; he is definitely a fresh char with high tier potential.

He just needs a few reliable kill moves and a broken tilt and he is set

 

[GHNeko]

It's something to experiment with, at least. That argument can be made for many characters that can set up tech chases, honestly. One could even argue that Ganon is ridiculous, because after Gerudo, he too "can just wait". In addition, the option to teching is up to the player -- Diddy cannot force this. The average human has a reaction time of 12 frames, meaning that the Diddy player has to be on point and faster than usual in order to catch someone on a tech roll. Then again, I'm hoping and assuming that Diddy's dash speed will be lowered in the near future. Even without nanners, Diddy with that fast of a dash is ridiculous, which is pretty bad. Diddy shouldn't be able to get the advantage without using his nanners much at all.

wat.

even if ganon can wait after side b, he has to commit to a lot more and is far more punishable.

all diddy has to do is throw something at you. if you don't tech the trip, you get hit. if you do, and he misses with one banana, and has another ready to cover all your options.

and on top of that, he'd be completely safe because he's throwing an item at you.

which he can approach/retreat with while tossing.

ganon can't do that ****. lol he wishes.

diddy with 2 bananas is pretty dumb.

But with being able to tech it and stuff, two banana's should be fine.

nooooo.

like not teching a trip is also a terrible thing to do because you're vunerable for huge periods of time since get up options from trips have terrible invunerability periods.

meaning get up options from trips get ***** by bananas, which is one of the reasons why 2 banana's **** in brawl.

 

[I R MarF]

wat.

even if ganon can wait after side b, he has to commit to a lot more and is far more punishable.

all diddy has to do is throw something at you. if you don't tech the trip, you get hit. if you do, and he misses with one banana, and has another ready to cover all your options.

and on top of that, he'd be completely safe because he's throwing an item at you.

which he can approach/retreat with while tossing.

ganon can't do that ****. lol he wishes.

diddy with 2 bananas is pretty dumb.

Lol @ diddy being able to pull out two bananas that quickly

TBH, if you give him a low SH, meh air mobility, and high running speed, I think people would enjoy playing aggressive with diddy with uair combos than camping around. Look at Wario, changing his moveset to attacks that didn't linger made him a less campy character.

Diddy feels like he would be on the offensive and dropping the banana's with the initial down-b action. Not dropping them, picking them up, then carefully designing a camping strategy and staying as far away as possible. He should get zoned and punished hard for playing like that.

He should play like Falco: Powerful offensive game, effective space control with a projectile, and bad recovery.

If Diddy is designed right, the problem will fix itself

 

[GHNeko]

who said anything about diddy being able to pull out those nanners instantly? im going off the basis that it's already out lol, which isnt hard for Diddy to do.

and also, diddy is super offensive with 2 nanners. he is also super campy.

he's dumb with 2 nanners. lol.

especially since there is more shieldstun in P:M vs brawl

 

[9Kplus1]

even if ganon can wait after side b, he has to commit to a lot more and is far more punishable.

Gerudo can't be shielded or powershielded.

all diddy has to do is throw something at you. if you don't tech the trip, you get hit. if you do, and he misses with one banana, and has another ready to cover all your options.

lol

You're assuming that Diddy is -- most of the time -- going to have two banana peels set up, perfectly, so he has a second option to cover all of a character's actions? Unless Diddy can carry two bananas, or the opposing player has the reaction time of a sloth, Diddy won't be keeping up with both of his projectiles, let alone one. I'm also 100% certain that every character's trip animation had been sped up. So, I reiterate: the player using Diddy will require very good reaction time along with precision with their tosses and set ups. Diddy won't be able to "hit" anything out of a trip if he predicts something else, or is not in the position to properly punish it.

and on top of that, he'd be completely safe because he's throwing an item at you.

which he can approach/retreat with while tossing.

WAT

Peach can throw her projectile and toss out a lagless aerial, while remaining well of of range of many OoS options; Falco has a frame 1 move that can be mixed up with laser approaches; the Hylian Paradox have a multitude of projectiles, along with very good range and great moves to follow them up with. None of those characters are "completely safe" when tossing around items. What makes Diddy so much better at approaching with banana peels? They... trip people? That doesn't make him any safer than they are.

ganon can't do that ****. lol he wishes.

He can... with his glide toss

diddy with 2 bananas is pretty dumb.

K.

@banana lock - how easy was it to set that up in P:M?

 

[JCaesar]

There are no locks of any kind in P:M.

Gerudo can't be shielded or powershielded.

It's also a lot easier to dodge, avoid and punish than a Diddy with a banana. A Ganon spamming side-B is just gonna get wrecked. A Diddy spamming 2-banana glidetoss approaches is going to wreck you.

 

[9Kplus1]

Was referring to this:

@ diddy's banana limit, i think it was a change that was done early on in PM to avoid having banana locks or something. not really sure

Also, I only used Gerudo as an example of what could be compared to Diddy being able to set up a tech chase. There are many things in P:M that one could use as a counterargument for Diddy being overpowering with two banana peels; Gerudo and Zamus's Down B are the only moves, aside from throws, that, considering if either connects, can immediately place a player in the position to be tech chased.

edit: @ the below - I'd disregarded throws because they're abundant among the cast, and thus harder to single out than moves exclusive to a few characters (i.e, just using Gerudo as an example saves a lot of time and effort (... I'm just being lazy)). Spikes and meteors can be DIed and / or SDIed, which leads to inconsistent results.

 

[JCaesar]

Uh hardly. Any spike/meteor can set up tech chases. And why exactly would you discount throws? Tech chases are common among most of the cast. Diddy with 1 banana fits that mold fairly well. Diddy with 2 bananas gives him a super safe multi-tech chase setup, and also a very hard-to-crack camping option.

Edit @ above: What are you even trying to argue? I've completely lost track.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Peach can throw her projectile and toss out a lagless aerial, while remaining well of of range of many OoS options; Falco has a frame 1 move that can be mixed up with laser approaches; the Hylian Paradox have a multitude of projectiles, along with very good range and great moves to follow them up with. None of those characters are "completely safe" when tossing around items. What makes Diddy so much better at approaching with banana peels?

...The fact that all the other stuff just bops you if it hits while Diddy's bananas make you trip left and right? -.o'

That was kind of a silly question. o_o'

 

[AeonClock]

I fail to see how being able to use two bananas gives Diddy safe options. Pulling out bananas is extremely unsafe to begin with. The probability of Diddy being able to set up two bananas (that take a century to come out) in close proximity is slim to none. People also seem to forget that Diddy's bananas can be used against him as well. If Diddy's opponent techs a trip, he/she is gonna have WAY more than enough time to pick up the banana and set up their own banana shenanigans before Diddy even comes close to pulling out another banana. If a Diddy player is able to successfully get two bananas on the field, they should be rewarded with the increased options that extra banana gives them.

 

[9Kplus1]

...The fact that all the other stuff just bops you if it hits while Diddy's bananas make you trip left and right? -.o'

That was kind of a silly question. o_o'

That was a rhetorical question ◕.◕

What are you even trying to argue? I've completely lost track.

I was mostly arguing against the notion that Diddy is completely safe with two banana peels, and for that matter, would be easy to pick up -- both of which are definitely untrue.

 

[Strong Badam]

i don't really see the idea of diddy being dumb with 2 naners because it hasn't been playtested ever in PM. y do u guys say stuff liek that

 

[GHNeko]

Gerudo can't be shielded or powershielded.

But it can be spotdodged, and has a **** ton of lag, making it easy to punish. Spotdodging a nanner means you get punished in cooldown by another.


lol

You're assuming that Diddy is -- most of the time -- going to have two banana peels set up, perfectly, so he has a second option to cover all of a character's actions? Unless Diddy can carry two bananas, or the opposing player has the reaction time of a sloth, Diddy won't be keeping up with both of his projectiles, let alone one. I'm also 100% certain that every character's trip animation had been sped up. So, I reiterate: the player using Diddy will require very good reaction time along with precision with their tosses and set ups. Diddy won't be able to "hit" anything out of a trip if he predicts something else, or is not in the position to properly punish it.

A good diddy, most of the time, will have his nanners close to him, as good diddys do in Brawl, which is not hard. If he has immediate access to 2 nanners, they're pretty much set up perfectly.

You're underestimating diddy players, especially since WDing over nanners picks them up, keeping nanners in good position isn't impossible to do.

And no, trip animations havnt been sped up. What's been sped up is bounce animation to prevent jab/laser locks.


WAT

Peach can throw her projectile and toss out a lagless aerial, while remaining well of of range of many OoS options; Falco has a frame 1 move that can be mixed up with laser approaches; the Hylian Paradox have a multitude of projectiles, along with very good range and great moves to follow them up with. None of those characters are "completely safe" when tossing around items. What makes Diddy so much better at approaching with banana peels?

He commits far less to his glide tosses than any of those characters in the situations he presents? Peach tossing turnips in air, means she has to commit to tossing, ends up in the air where she can't shield and her only defensive option is moving away or airdodging. Her glide toss doesnt go as far as diddy's, and on hit doesnt net the same advantage.

Diddy can shield/spotdodge/wavedash/roll away after a glide toss (which he can do, moving away from the opponent)

Link has to commit to all of his projectiles' cooldown, all of which except bombs, have longer cooldowns. His glide tossed bombs don't go as far as Diddys, doesn't net the same advantage, etc.

Falco's shine isnt a projectile lol.

Also, all of these character's projectiles dont have rewards that compare to hitting with a nanner.


@banana lock - how easy was it to set that up in P:M?

There is no nanner lock. Nanners just say **** you to your get up options.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Wife:M has officially been confirmed for the April release.

You really think Zamus is ready?


I do think it might be worth actually testing two bananas, but I personally don't see it working.

 

[Revven]

We've had Diddy with two bananas running around for about... a year or so. I think a lot of people who have actually played against Diddy can say whether or not two bananas made Diddy really quite silly.

He pretty much relied solely on the bananas, which doesn't make for an interesting character. Yes, it does make him "technical" but at the same time you're losing ... an interesting character, because he's relying on his bananas to make up for his many, many other faults that keep him from being the best character (worst recovery in the game, mostly terrible tilts and smash attacks, mediocre aerial moves exception being Fair and Bair, and throws are also quite... mediocre, on top of relatively poor range on some of his moves etc.) The bananas made up for those flaws because he could easily land any attack he wanted, it didn't matter if he had poor range on it, he could land it because you're vulnerable.

One banana removed is an attempt, albeit a very work-in-progress idea to work on Diddy in other aspects rather than keeping him to this banana-gimmicky techchase style that is often quite silly on certain characters and match-ups. There's a reason why he's rarely played (besides being unpopular) on streams. The one banana thing is really supposed to work with the other plans we're cooking up for him, which are yet to be put into him right now.

On top of this, yes there was the stance for quite some time that Diddy transitioned well to a Melee environment with the bananas and it was also said Diddy "required very little work". Well, that stance has somewhat changed, in that he will still be using the banana as a main tool but it won't be the sole reason Diddy Kong is good or even a great character. Having a character rely on something to the point of having to keep his recovery to being relatively garbage to justify it doesn't make for a good character, or a very interesting one in the end. About the only thing I can tell you that is a part of this plan we're thinking of is that his recovery will no longer be utter garbage (but it also won't obviously be amazing, we're not stupid lol).

There are no banana locks in PM because you can tech the bananas (but certainly not instantly). Anytime someone mistechs the bananas they can get hurt a lot more than someone who simply mistechs a meteor or a throw like Ganon's Side B or some other techchase set-up throw.

Also, it's not guaranteed the way you pick up items (such as with aerials and so forth) are going to remain the same. Chances are, Diddy might not be able to pick up his bananas anymore with any aerial (whenever this decides to work or we've come to an actual conclusion on what to do with this gameplay mechanic that effects everyone), which would marginally hurt him in the long run as it is.

In any case, I hope this explains things better than what the others have posted. If not, I'm sorry, it's late and I have classes tomorrow so I can't really type out much more than this.

 

[9Kplus1]

Alright, because I'm not in the PMBR, and far from being qualified for such a status, I'll back down after this post, in order to prevent this argument from going in circles (I'm too arrogant and stubborn to just leave this alone >_>).

The only reason I'd even asked about the reason behind Diddy only having one banana peel, was because I'd never gotten a direct answer to that. The only thing I've heard about Diddy's banana count that could even be considered relevant was "Diddy is stupid with two", or something of that nature. That's well below basic logic, and sure as hell isn't a good reason to justify a nerf to a character with so much potential.

That being said, thank you for the explanation, Falco400.

edit:

Falco's shine isnt a projectile lol.

Falco has a frame 1 move that can be mixed up with laser approaches

Oi, that almost made me use the term, "guh" -___-

 

[AeonClock]

Sometimes I feel like non-PMBR members are like five year olds trying to get a straight answers out of their parents. I understand that we can't know everything, but many of the replies to valid, important questions consist of, "Because I'm your dad" answers instead of, "You'll understand when you're older" answers. 50% of the character discussion arguments could be thwarted if people responded more like Falco400 did just now.

 

[9Kplus1]

Not many people want to place that much effort into answering a question in such a manner, especially when an answer can be easily generalized to "it's silly" or "it would be stupid". Can we really blame them? Questions about P:M are being constantly asked, so, doubtlessly, it's understandable that any of the PMBR's answers to our questions will be simplistic and a bit vague. It's just a bit... irritating to scrummage through the thread (using the search function) in order to find information about something that wasn't addressed as often as, say, landing detection. Other than that, though, I don't have much of a problem with simple answers. Although... sometimes, it is difficult to determine whether or not a simple answer is a reliable one, particularly when the source is biased towards an aspect of the subject in question. (Neko loves Diddy + Falco action )

 

[iLink]

I don't really see how having 2 bananas is really dumb. Just about everything falco does is just as dumb if not more. Of course blahblahIhaven'tplayedrecentbuildblahblah.

 

[kaizo13]

question about the semi-new tether mechanic.....does it force the auto tether hop when someone is occupying the ledge or can you stall it and hang from the ledge? and can you tether hop on command when the ledge is free?
don't really see any mix-up potential as it is. It'd be nice to have more control over it, it's use right now looks so plain and repetitive.

also the animation just straight out looks weird. is it using the 1st jump animation? can you make it the 2nd jump animation so it looks more fluent?

 

[Cubelarooso]

Thanks, Falco. Fantastic response. And it's always good to have reconfirmation that the PMBR really has coherent, deliberated, empirically proven justifications for its design decisions.
Man, my gut told me SB was trolling. Should've listened.

 

[Xebenkeck]

I actually was privalaged to play Blunted_Object recently and we cannot forget the fact that Diddy's bananas can be caught in mid air and on the ground.

I played Blunted_object and used both Ylink and Peach against him. It was ridiculous the amount of times he was able to catch a bomb or turnip and use them against me. Almost to the point of me abandoning that straategy.

I may not be able to catch items consistantly, but top level melee players can catch items consistently, something that can truely stop Diddy's banana abuse, especially if he is being predictable with them.

You can't catch Dark Dive

 

[Yeroc]

It is the 2nd jump animation. And you still control the reel in, you just go into the jump if there's somebody hanging there when you get to the ledge.

 

[Xebenkeck]

About the only thing I can tell you that is a part of this plan we're thinking of is that his recovery will no longer be utter garbage (but it also won't obviously be amazing, we're not stupid lol).

I always thought that making Diddy's jetpac function like ROB's vBrawl upB(albeit a nerfed version) was a good idea.

I forget who suggested it but i liked the idea nevertheless.

 

[DVDV28]

The thing with the current one though is that it works with the bananas. If the opponent throws one of your bananas, you can use that against them once it hits the ground.

 

[kaizo13]

It is the 2nd jump animation......

really? cuz all the times i've seen zss, all she does is this http://www.twitch.tv/ghneko/b/305621195?t=34m14s

last time I checked, her 2nd jump animation consisted of two front flips

 

[iLink]

Also, can't you just waveland onto the bananas to pick them up? It's not like diddy has exclusive use of the bananas. Hell, in brawl, just about every character could short hop after a blocked banana and catch it with Z as it bounced off their shield.

Diddy had really good control of the bananas in brawl because of how good his dash attack was. AFAIK, you can't pick them up anymore with dash attacks.

I think it's one of those things you should let in and see how they develop before putting your hands up in defeat because it just seems like "bs" when you really haven't put in the proper effort in seeing how to work against it.

My 2cents.

 

[Vigilante]

Lucario on Shadow Moses is so funny. The walls are an aura recharge station.

 

[DVDV28]

How about the balloon? That'd help recharge wouldn't it?

 

[Magus420]

They go into CliffJumpSlow2 (the 2nd part of a 100+ ledge jump once they leave the edge). It's exactly what they do when tether hopping in melee. ZSS' 100+ ledge jump animation just looks rather stupid.

 

[kaizo13]

ah that makes sense now, thanks Magus

(although the important part of my question wasn't really answered lol)
pretty much, is it possible to make tether hopping work more like it did in Melee. as in, jump on command and not just when the ledge is occupied.