Project M Social Thread

[metroid1117]

There are a couple ways that I look at the body of the above and it's admittedly kind of hard to figure out where I should start. I don't expressly disagree with how you feel as even in my meager three years of competitive smash (though, the feeling of PvP > PvPvS extends even down to semi-competitive and casual play) has had me meet plenty of people who feel the same way. On one hand I see smash as a medium who has players that can still adapt to things as comparatively (to other things we've had to deal with in the past, mind you) minor to something like stage tilting screwing up or helping a recovery and have been for as long as the series has been around and ideally I believe that keeping those elements is something that we as players should do. My experience as a Brawl player from the Midwest has shown me that our players can still be successful in doing so (via Shu.go, K-ain, L@in and other great players).

But on the other hand, we have this body of players that the team is trying to snag which will likely consist of mid-to-low-high levels of Melee players and the people who have fallen through the cracks of every game that I feel still carries the view that the Legion scene has. And the spirit of competitive Smash which has seen it's stage lists shrink down toward the TFG-esque avenue of "pure PvP" as a means to show who is the best.

Ideally for me, I think you have to have all of those types of stages in ,regardless of preference in order to cater to everyone who is going to play your game. There are people who are going to play this game for fun and casually who may play with the proposed competitive stage list and vice-versa. Either way it's a powerful tool (I mean, I think having a recommended list from the people who made and tested the game would be) that will dictate a lot of the early metagame. At least give the opportunity.

Regarding the Lylat discussion, I think people need to keep in mind that sweetspotting as not an issue in Brawl because of autosweetspotting (except for Wario, Kirby, Ike, Jiggs, Snake, and maybe some other characters I'm blanking out on). Lylat's tilting did make recovering difficult, but it was a minor nuisance that makes it still acceptable as a neutral. However, in P:M, where an imprecise recovery can cost your stock, I don't believe Lylat should be legal. All other counterpicks that used to be legal in Melee Singles (Pokefloats, Rainbow Cruise, Kongo Jungle 64, Mute City, Brinstar, Jungle Japes, etc.) had some sort of gimmick but the actual surface on which fighting took place was, for the most part, stationary. (The Pokemon on Pokefloats moved, but it's not as though they would actively move their body parts while you were fighting on them, with the exception of Slowpoke.) An entire stage that tilts is a completely different dynamic that, I feel, would be too chaotic for competitive play, where absolute precision is required to be successful.

While the recommended rule set is definitely a strong tool in influencing what stages are legal, it is still only recommended. TOs are free to put whatever stages (and rules, for that matter) they want in their ruleset; if the players don't like it, they don't have to go to the tournament. Regardless, TOs and the recommended rule set both cater to their audiences, and as a community, the Melee scene has drifted away from "janky" stages in singles; in fact, the current Singles ruleset only has one counterpick stage, and that's Stadium. You're absolutely right, the Melee scene has taken a more "PvP" outlook to the stagelist much like the TFC, but people who play this game casually have a choice as to what stages they play on; if they want to play on Lylat, no one is stopping them from doing so.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Umbreon makes a really good point when you look past the condescension.

Why try to make every dumb Brawl stage a neutral when you guys have so many stages already that fit that description? I think it would be better to be porting over more classic levels from Smash 64 and Melee. I'm talking Peach's Castle 64, Great Bay, and Poke Floats. Very unique stages with positional advantages but not hazard-heavy.

Yes, not exactly tournament favorites but these stages are fun and add some seriously needed variety among the numerous, neatly arranged three plat stages.

 

[GaretHax]

Spoiler

Considering Falco's is a clone of Fox's, I'm not quite sure what you mean. The entire point is that he's a spacie, but, just a little off. He did not attend the same military academy as the Star Fox crew, so his take on the combat style they use ends up being similar, but at the same time, very opposite. It is this same train of thought under which I came up with a "Roundhouse backhand smack" for F-smash, to contrast the other spacies' Roundhouse kick while giving him a solid replacement to his nonsensical barwl F-smash.

The other moves vary on their degree of "want" of change from me. Right about the same level as F-smash is nair, that silly Pichu spin he does. I've talked before with one of the backroom animators about a sex kick but "More feral with his 'monkey palm'/crane stance his hands have going on"

After nair is U-smash, which has already been changed and LOOKS FANTASTIC SERIOUSLY GREAT JOB WHOEVER MADE IT. About the same level is Dash attack which has also been changed.

Next comes D-smash, which I'd like to see be a single hit double claw strike instead of his two swipes.

As you can see, the more this train of thought goes the more analogous to the other spacies Wolf becomes, but the more solid his design becomes. Instead of having "jagged, twitchy attacks" Wolf becomes a fighter befitting his species, his role as a space animal, and his default stance. He becomes a precise, yet dangerous, refined, yet wild character who knows he can get the job done just as well as the other Spacies while retaining his signature style.


So, along that train of thought, I came up with ideas for F-tilt, D-tilt, Uair, Dair, and lastly Bair.

F-tilt- A half step forward and a horizontal slash reaching the length of the other Spacies' F-tilt foot pokes. Afterwards returns footing to original position without having to do a full turn.

D-tilt- Using his heel and forward hand palm as a pivot, swipes forward while rotating back into position with the speed of his rival's simple tail flick.

Uair- A sommersalt midair, Wolf crosses his arms and readies them. At the end of the front flip, he slashes upward while uncrossing his arms, a hitbox happening when his hands overlap, and then another just afterward when his arms spread out.

Dair- The aforementioned downward Duriririririlll

Bair- The move I have the least enthusiasm for changing, but worth mentioning to fit in line with his other moves. A backward palm strike with open claws held out afterward. A sex "kick" with his hand in line with the worthless Starfox crew who rely on their feet so much.

As I said, his current bair is still good though, and has a nice, clean, full animation that looks and feels natural and fitting with his character. I only mention the bair idea to make it a part of the whole picture of the changed moves I listed.

I will probably at least do more motion recording for D-smash, f-tilt, and D-tilt, maybe get a snapshot for nair since sex kicks are mostly near identical frames, and if I can, show the last part of uair (the swipe) and the bair strike (Though it isn't too different from Falcon/Ganon's). Not tonight though, I'm already tired and it's still not quite 8 yet.

EDIT: Thank you for the compliment on my F-smash idea.

I know it's really late but I like the idea of an asthetic overhaul for Wolf. Though I think some of this guy's reccomendations are overly flashy and should be made more akin to Wolf's Persona, It would definately be cool to see better more fleshed out animations for him. However I do not want his playstyle changed at all, imo he is a perfect mix of fox and falco's styles and has a ground game potent enough that his shine might actually end up being under-used in favor of grabs, tilts, jabs, or even just spamming that obscenely fast hitting Nair. But it would be really cool to see more relaxed moves that flow out of his nuetral stance. Moves that seem fitting to someone who has survived as long as he has. In my opinion this means efficient and very seldom flashy, if at all, moves that are vicious and deceptively simple and strong. After all very few people who charge in and try to be as flashy and fancy as possible live long in a occupation like his, that coupled with his massive background of experience should create a polished, smooth, relaxed-almost lazy looking style that flows effortlessly between his moves, but shows great purpose within each individual attack. Hard to explain really XD hope this makes some form of sense.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

yeahhh

lol Captain Steve.

Chugga would have nightmares if he saw this. xD

 

[GP&B]

I thought Great Bay was banned and, from a hacking point of view, unsalvageable because of how much you'd have to change it to get something almost decent.

Massive support for Peach's Castle 64 though. Wish we could put an active Bumper item in though...

 

[9Kplus1]

Chuggaconroy is worse than MvC3 tourney results

btw, Comeback Kid, the stages, Termina and Poke Floats, are banned for very good reasons in Melee (the former encourages camping on the bottom portion, while the latter is just ****ing huge). Sure, they could be toned down, tremendously, but it's much less likely that this discussion will turn into a cluster**** (and eventually, ****storm) if ideas for stage legality are based less on theory. Lylat being immutable, for example, is a warranted change, due to the stage originally being inconsistent, when speaking in terms of positioning. It's a stage that has great potential if said inconsistency were removed -- potential that differs greatly from other available stages, matter of fact. Conversely, Termina and Poke Floats require multiple changes in order to become usable stages, let alone viable counterpicks.

edit: definitely in favor of Peach's Castle 64 with better spawn points, though

 

[Shadic]

For the record, I do agree with you in terms of having more stages like Hyrule 64 that emphasize positional advantages.

For the record, I'm pretty sure he was talking about Temple:M.

 

[ph00tbag]

Hyrule 64 is a terrible stage.

 

[9Kplus1]

Termina 64 is an amazing stage

 

[Comeback Kid]

Termina 64 is an amazing stage

Are you talking about that hacked lost woods level or is that an inverse reality joke?

But I'm glad so many people agree about PC64. Considering how many stages (75m, Hanenbow, Pictochat, Shadow Moses etc.) are just dangling pointlessly on the roster right now, I think this is a must have addition at least.

Edit: I don't think a stage has to be tourney legal to be in this game as part of a classic stage list. I'm not arguing make them all legal just put them in for fun.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Duking it out in the Ikana Kingdom.

 

[I R MarF]

I definitely agree with whoever is saying that the stage list is a bit much.

Neutrals:
Fountain of Dreams (Melee)
Dreamland 64
Final Destination (Melee)
Battlefield (Brawl, though I'd prefer the Melee one tbh)
Frozen Pokemon Stadium
Yoshi's Story (Melee)

CP's:
Skyworld (The new, fixed version)
Frozen Pokemon Stadium (Woods Stage)
Kongo Jungle 64
Brinstar (Melee)

Singles Only CP:
Lylat Cruise
Frozen Castle Siege? (First Stage frozen only, not sure if its too small for doubles)

Doubles Only CP:
Hyrule 64?

But that should be it, 6 neutrals and 4-5 CPs is a good amount. Making everything a neutral seems to be unecessary work and will ultimately be a confusing amount of variety. I particularly hate some of the massive stages that seem to be traditional neutral stages doubled in size like that castlevania stage and the SSE Jungle stage.

Less will definitely be more in the end for stages

 

[Kink-Link5]

There needs to be an odd number of starters for stage striking to work properly. Otherwise it has to come down to 2 stages determined by rock paper scissors.

 

[9Kplus1]

Yeah, frozen PS1 won't be on our stagelists anytime soon

 

[Kink-Link5]

Also FoD is too small to be a doubles starter.

I think 5/7 starters and 4/6 CPs (+Random Select) is a good amount for singles. No clue for doubles though.

5 starters 4(+Random) CP's would have 2 stage bans per player, 7 Starters 6(+Random) CP's would have 3 stage bans per player, or you know whatever, I have my own stage selection system I use modified from the MBR stage system.

It's extremely complicated.

(For Melee)

Starter stages

Battle Field
Final Destination
Dream Land
Fountain of Dreams
Yoshi's Story

CP's
Pokemon Stadium
Brinstar
Mute City
Rainbow Cruise
Random*

*Random select consists of every CP and starter, including ones which otherwise get banned at the start of the set.


Starting a set:

The set starts with port priority, determained by rock paper scissors if an agreement can not be reached

Afterwards comes character selection, which can be requested as double blind pick from either player.

Before the set begins proper and after the characters are selected, each player has the option to ban two stages for the set, in order of:

Lower port
Higher port
Higher port
Lower port

A player may choose to ban one or no stages as well. All stages, including random select, may be banned by either player.

After the stages are banned, the starting stage is chosen by doing a similar process with the remaining starter stages.

Lower port strikes a stage
Higher port strikes a stage
Higher port
Lower port

And the remaining stage is played. In the event that only four stages remain after banning,

Lower port strikes a stage
Higher port strikes a stage

and a second round of Rock paper scissors is played to determain who selects the stage from the remaining 2.

In the event that only three stages remain after banning, lower port strikes a stage, then higher port chooses from the remaining two.

If only two stages are left after banning, the stage is determined by a second round of Rock Paper Scissors.

After the each match of a set:

Winner strikes a stage
Loser chooses the stage to play on
Winner selects character
Loser selects character
The next match starts

Dave's Stupid Rule is not in effect.

 

[MaxThunder]

any stage anyone wants that isn't in there when they release it, are stages they can easily put in themselves over any stage they don't want...

 

[Kink-Link5]

Yes, but it's nice to have something resembling a consistent rule set when it comes to making the rules under which tournaments will be held.

 

[Deleted member]

Indeed it's ironic for me to point out something I saw as juvenile in a way that also is the same. Since you've gone out of the "this sucks", "brawl sucks", "the BBR is a joke, hah!" sharp and short post style, it's a lot easier for me to respond to you at the same level you're now on. What I did with my last post was successful. Go figure. But that's water under the bridge now.

There are a couple ways that I look at the body of the above and it's admittedly kind of hard to figure out where I should start. I don't expressly disagree with how you feel as even in my meager three years of competitive smash (though, the feeling of PvP > PvPvS extends even down to semi-competitive and casual play) has had me meet plenty of people who feel the same way. On one hand I see smash as a medium who has players that can still adapt to things as comparatively (to other things we've had to deal with in the past, mind you) minor to something like stage tilting screwing up or helping a recovery and have been for as long as the series has been around and ideally I believe that keeping those elements is something that we as players should do. My experience as a Brawl player from the Midwest has shown me that our players can still be successful in doing so (via Shu.go, K-ain, L@in and other great players).

But on the other hand, we have this body of players that the team is trying to snag which will likely consist of mid-to-low-high levels of Melee players and the people who have fallen through the cracks of every game that I feel still carries the view that the Legion scene has. And the spirit of competitive Smash which has seen it's stage lists shrink down toward the TFG-esque avenue of "pure PvP" as a means to show who is the best.

Ideally for me, I think you have to have all of those types of stages in ,regardless of preference in order to cater to everyone who is going to play your game. There are people who are going to play this game for fun and casually who may play with the proposed competitive stage list and vice-versa. Either way it's a powerful tool (I mean, I think having a recommended list from the people who made and tested the game would be) that will dictate a lot of the early metagame. At least give the opportunity.

For the record, I do agree with you in terms of having more stages like Hyrule 64 that emphasize positional advantages.

****, this was a long post. Just my sort-of-fragmented thoughts.

So you spent 3 paragraphs to tell me that you're going to troll me to agree with me, but then you're going to keep it as is anyway?

Does anyone else here hate you as much as I do?

Stay in the MW so I never meet you IRL.

/ignore list.

 

[jalued]

any chance that you will stream PM with fuzzy this week PEEF?

 

[9Kplus1]

Namesearch in:

3...
2...

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'll have too look up what namesearch means sometime.

 

[Strong Badam]

Brinstar & KJ64 should not be legal in Project M

 

[Juushichi]

Yessssssssssssssssssss.

I definitely have to go to MD/VA now.

tl;dr of my feelings tho: Larger "suggested" stage list is for the best, PvPvE isn't bad and should be kept IMO since it's not going to be crazy like vB PTAD, better players will still beat worse ones. Nothing wrong with Lylat, etc, etc.

 

[9Kplus1]

Hey, it's Strong Bad

why is DK so good

 

[Kink-Link5]

Because he has big hairy monkey arms.

 

[Strong Badam]

tl;dr of my feelings tho: Larger "suggested" stage list is for the best, PvPvE isn't bad and should be kept IMO since it's not going to be crazy like vB PTAD, better players will still beat worse ones. Nothing wrong with Lylat, etc, etc.

you're in the minority in this community

 

[9Kplus1]

that's so smashist

we lesser folk prefer being called by our proper name:

Spoiler

_______

 

[NeoZ]

I'll have too look up what namesearch means sometime.

It's a pretty intuitive name, it shouldn't be hard to figure it out.

 

[felipe_9595]

Brinstar & KJ64 should not be legal in Project M

100% Agree, KJ 64 is barely legal in 64 because the lack of stages. P:M has a ****load of them, i dont see a reason to have it as legal ( Even if it doesnt have the barrel, it stil haves those stupid ledges)

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

Is there any chance of Wolf being in Demo 2?

 

[drsusredfish]

they wont tell

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think Lylat should just be made predictable rather than frozen. Then it wouldn't be any worse than Yoshi's Story is.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Not likely if they are planning on implementing most or even some of my animation ideas, but that's a price to pay.

 

[crush]

Destiny is calling me

 

[Strong Badam]

Ledges are blah regardless of tilting. Even worse than Melee BF.
I like planking on melee BF tho

 

[MonkUnit]

I think Lylat should just be made predictable rather than frozen. Then it wouldn't be any worse than Yoshi's Story is.

There's nothing random about Yoshi's Story. Unless you count the shyguys but they aren't in PM. If you're talking about Yoshi's Island: Brawl, then the ghost platforms are random.

 

[JCaesar]

Wow this stage talk is so dumb.

ROB:M marathon on youtube! All vs Ryoko. This is essentially what ROB is going to be in the next demo.

 

[Kink-Link5]

There's nothing random about Yoshi's Story. Unless you count the shyguys but they aren't in PM. If you're talking about Yoshi's Island: Brawl, then the ghost platforms are random.

He means to say YS isn't random, and if Lylat were consistent, it wouldn't be either.

I won't argue against that point since it's simple deductive reasoning.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I didn't say it was random, I said it was predictable, which it is since randall moves at a constant speed on a set track. I was saying if you gave Lylat a pattern like that instead of it being random it wouldn't be any more PvPvS than Yoshi's.

Ninja'd while I was typing this but I'll post it anyways.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Wow Caesar wtf is wrong with your sound. It's like whales gargling bees in an alien space ship.