Project M Social Thread

[kaizo13]

Fox/Falco are competed with because they are fastfallers and get easily comboed which holds them back, if fox/falco were zeldas weight we wouldnt be having this convo because melee would have died out years ago due to broken characters.

melee zelda + shine = high tier cause she has a bad moveset in melee. Srsly PMBR give the current build of Zelda a shine and see how god broken she becomes.

lol you look at the shine as if it was a weapon of mass destruction. Zelda (and all her floatie-ness) would, in no way benefit from a shine.

it's fox's/falco's physics and moveset + shine that make them top tier. Zelda with a shine would not make her "high tier" -__________-'

 

[Mattnumbers]

I would think it would be hard to give so many characters as many options as Fox/Falco without having many of them end up similar.

 

[Mattnumbers]

lol you look at the shine as if it was a weapon of mass destruction. Zelda (and all her floatyness) would in no way benefit from a shine.

it's fox's/falco's physics and moveset that make them top tier. Zelda with a shine would not make her "high tier" -__________-'

Not to mention she would be losing her best move

 

[Xebenkeck]

Zelda (and all her floatie-ness) would, in no way benefit from a shine.

Really? Really?

 

[kaizo13]

Really? Really?

enough to make her high tier as you claim.....yes really

 

[Xebenkeck]

1 frame, combo starter, relector, turn around move, kill set-up, shield pressure, gimping tool, JC into any aerial, JC into WD into anymove. 1 frame, 1 frame 1 frame.

None of this would add to her current build and make her broken? k i'll bite. PMBR make it happen, current zelda build+DownB shine will only be high tier.

 

[Cero]

I would think it would be hard to give so many characters as many options as Fox/Falco without having many of them end up similar.

I think that's what the PMBR is trying to do though.

Ike has a jump cancel for his quickdraw. Lucario has that OHC system that pretty much enables him to link anything into anything. Idk if Zelda can still jump cancel her grounded up-B.

The only thing that's homogenizing the cast's playstyles are the jump cancels. I don't think that's a bad thing though. As long as the moves that they're canceling are different, the characters will never really play like each other.

1 frame, combo starter, relector, turn around move, kill set-up, shield pressure, gimping tool, JC into any aerial, JC into WD into anymove. 1 frame, 1 frame 1 frame.

None of this would add to her current build and make her broken? k i'll bite. PMBR make it happen, current zelda build+DownB shine will only be high tier.

Well yeah, if you replace transform with shine, then you're just adding an extra move to the character. (I've never really seen a point in switching mid match with either character.) Of course, Zelda will benefit. She's getting an extra move.

Now if you replace Naryu's love, that's something to think about.

I personally don't think that she would benefit too much from having a shine. She's mainly a defensive character. She waits for other characters to come within her range and then she ***** them with huge multi-hit hitboxes. Fox and Falco use shine offensively because their physics allow them to rush their opponents. Zelda wouldn't be able to really gimp people with Fox's shine because she doesn't fall fast enough.

I could see her using shine -> up-smash on shields though. That would be pretty good.

Other than that, I actually think that Naryu's love compliments Zelda's physics more than shine does. Shine's hitbox is just too small.

 

[Xebenkeck]

W/E this shine stuff doesnt really matter to the main point

The PMBR said they were balancing to the high tiers not the top tiers.

If they don't want to nerf the top tiers that is fine I actually dont care that much. But if they do, I think everyone here agrees that in order to preserve Fox/Falco's melee feel shine must be untouched. Therefore if they do wish to nerf Fox/Falco, they would have to nerf some other aspect of their GOOD movesets like projectiles, aerials, or ground moves.

 

[ph00tbag]

I really don't think Falco needs direct nerfing if more characters are given better defensive options.

I'd like to see Fox's usmash animation swapped with Falco's. The move could stand to kill a bit later, too. PAL knockback would be keen.

 

[jalued]

W/E this shine stuff doesnt really matter to the main point

The PMBR said they were balancing to the high tiers not the top tiers.

If they don't want to nerf the top tiers that is fine I actually dont care that much. But if they do, I think everyone here agrees that in order to preserve Fox/Falco's melee feel shine must be untouched. Therefore if they do wish to nerf Fox/Falco, they would have to nerf some other aspect of their GOOD movesets like projectiles, aerials, or ground moves.

but you cant really nerf anything about fox/falco without melee player's resenting it. It's safer to work around them

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i dont understand this whole idea about if they were to nerf fox, and falco we need to figure out what to nerf. i mean really people pal nerfed both of these characters already, while keeping them both top tier. if we just copied those nerfs then add in the buffs and balance this game is trying to reach fox and falco should fit fine

 

[Shadic]

Hey guys.

I hear this group called the PMBR is making a cool game. Bad characters are good and good characters are still good.

It's pretty fun. When Demo 2 comes out, you should try it.

 

[NeoZ]

Guys, I think making new characters as strong as top tiers with 10 years of the metagame behind them is a great idea. It's not like people will learn to play them, so day 0 Ike should totally be on par with 10 years of experience Fox.

That makes sense from a balancing standpoint, right?

 

[kaizo13]

but you cant really nerf anything about fox/falco without melee player's resenting it. It's safer to work around them

it's not just that, it's that....

THEY AREN'T BROKEN

the rest of the Melee cast was just horrible in comparison. THIS IS A NEW GAME. (refer to Shadic's post)

 

[drsusredfish]

Guys, I think making new characters as strong as top tiers with 10 years of the metagame behind them is a great idea. It's not like people will learn to play them, so day 0 Ike should totally be on par with 10 years of experience Fox.

That makes sense from a balancing standpoint, right?

he makes a good point. but im sure the PMBR understands this already

 

[drsusredfish]

now on to more character ideas. What do you guys think about charizard being able to down b out of sheild. i mean its basically a jump so why not? and maybe give him 4 frames of invincibility on start up.

 

[Dantarion]

Guys, I think making new characters as strong as top tiers with 10 years of the metagame behind them is a great idea. It's not like people will learn to play them, so day 0 Ike should totally be on par with 10 years of experience Fox.

That makes sense from a balancing standpoint, right?

Day 0 Ike?
Because the PMBR doesn't do playtesting, right?

 

[Mattnumbers]

And it's not like the collective knowledge of smash the community has built up over the last decade will help accelerate how fast we can figure out character potential

 

[Xebenkeck]

This^^^

Day 1 of Brawl we knew MK, Falco and Snake were good.

 

[NeoZ]

I'm seriously impressed with you guys, ever heard of sarcasm?

 

[Xebenkeck]

Yep I was using lots of it in recent posts. Were you?

 

[Mattnumbers]

But we did pretty much know Snake, MK, and Falco were really good from day 1. Hell, people even thought MK would be OP since the E for All demo.

Sarcasm doesn't work online we should stop now before things become more confusing

OR AM I BEING SARCASTIC???

What we need is to bring in the irony marks.

؟ ؟ ؟ ؟ ؟ ؟ ؟ ؟ ؟ ؟ ؟ ؟ ؟

 

[NeoZ]

Yep I was using lots of it recently. Were you?

I thought I couldn't have made it more clear.

Just read the bolded part again:
"It's not like people will learn to play them, so day 0 Ike should totally be on par with 10 years of experience Fox.

That makes sense from a balancing standpoint, right?"

 

[Mattnumbers]

I thought I couldn't have made it more clear.

Just read the bolded part again:
"It's not like people will learn to play them, so day 0 Ike should totally be on par with 10 years of experience Fox.

That makes sense from a balancing standpoint, right?"

And we responded to that sarcasm with more sarcasm if you failed to notice....

 

[Xebenkeck]

And we responded to that sarcasm with more sarcasm if you failed to notice....

It's like sarcasm doesn't work on the internet, mind blowing really.

 

[NeoZ]

And we responded to that sarcasm with more sarcasm if you failed to notice....

Those responses were taking what I said pretty seriously, so I guess you did fail to notice.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Well yeah but he's mocking us for not getting his sarcasm because he failed to get ours. I just find it ironic.

No, those responses would have been agreeing with what you said if it weren't sarcastic.

 

[jalued]

Guys, I think making new characters as strong as top tiers with 10 years of the metagame behind them is a great idea. It's not like people will learn to play them, so day 0 Ike should totally be on par with 10 years of experience Fox.

That makes sense from a balancing standpoint, right?

i don't think they are aiming to make them initially as good as fox/falco. They just require some tools to be able to develop a reasonable metagame, and not blatantly suck

 

[Mattnumbers]

Saying "Guys, I think making new characters as strong as top tiers with 10 years of the metagame behind them is a great idea. It's not like people will learn to play them, so day 0 Ike should totally be on par with 10 years of experience Fox." sarcastically means you are saying we shouldn't start them at the level of the target character because they would become far better after people played them for a long time.
We then said why it wouldn't really matter as characters are playtested and the community is much better at figuring out characters than it was in 2002.

 

[NeoZ]

Well yeah but he's mocking us for not getting his sarcasm because he failed to get ours. I just find it ironic.

No, those responses would have been agreeing with what you said if it weren't sarcastic.

Responding sarcastically to something you thought was serious isn't the same as responding to something you knew was sarcasm, just a heads up.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Responding sarcastically to something you thought was serious isn't the same as responding to something you knew was sarcasm, just a heads up.

Urg...


just...

nevermind, ok?

 

[kaizo13]

holy ****

enough with the sarcasm crap

now on to more character ideas. What do you guys think about charizard being able to down b out of sheild. i mean its basically a jump so why not? and maybe give him 4 frames of invincibility on start up.

I can see this being a nice little buff if it's needed later on. Making it a defensive/escape move rather than just offensive/chasing.
(but i'm sure the pmbr thought of this the second "fly" was created)

 

[NeoZ]

I can see this as a nice little buff IF it's needed later on. Making it a defensive/escape move rather than just offensive/chasing.

How fast does it start anyway?
And how does Charizard deal with pressure right now?
Cause maybe he already has enough options or it's just one of his weaknesses.

 

[Kink-Link5]

What I just never got my head around was people considering the spacies broken in the first place.

Charizard's High Jump is good and his Up-B and grab are both already decent OoS options. He's like a much more mobile Melee Boozer with wings right now.

 

[MonkUnit]

Charizard's DownB is Fly, not High Jump.

Although, isn't his upB listed as "Fly" on the Brawl dojo website? lol

 

[kaizo13]

Although, isn't his upB listed as "Fly" on the Brawl dojo website? lol

then we need a Project M Dojo

 

[standardtoaster]

We can name it whatever we want. We're the ****ing PMBR.

 

[drsusredfish]

dantarion, do you mind making sheiks AI stop trying to side B to the stage <_< its so annoying in training mode.

 

[iLink]

Honestly the AI in the demo wasn't that bad aside from airdodging off stage and the sheik sideb thing.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

I'd think making them stop air dodging to their doom off stage would be a more useful overall buff. That's the one thing that really bothers me when playing CPUs in the demo- you can screw them over just by throwing a few attacks at them offstage.

EDIT: It seems I killed the thread for over an hour with this post. Cool.