Project M Social Thread

[Mattnumbers]

In what way? Fox keeps all of his options.

 

[jalued]

I fail to see how that could possibly be true unless it made it so that something no longer comboed/allowed for tech chases.

You now die 20% later from fox Upsmash, yeah that totally changes everything about the character

yes it does, because in the time taken to add an extra 20% to the opponent, you could miss a tech or just space poorly, and then your stock is gone.

 

[Mattnumbers]

yes it does, because in the time taken to add an extra 20% to the opponent, you could miss a tech or just space poorly, and then your stock is gone.

That doesn't change anything about your playstyle, it just makes the character slightly worse, which is what it was supposed to do in the first place

 

[Rikana]

1% makes the difference between surviving and dying. Its simple. I don't see how its not that simple to you. His uSmash can and will kill at a certain percent. That 1% makes the biggest difference.

Edit: And making it worse when new casts and altered veterans come into play just makes it even more worse.

 

[Mono.]

So... in this case, doing a bit more work to kill means the character is completely different?

 

[Mattnumbers]

It makes a difference, certainly, or else there would be no point. But it doesn't make you have to relearn the character whatsoever.

 

[Rikana]

Anyways, I don't think I'm gonna argue this point. It's something we're not going to change. Top tiers will not be nerfed.

 

[Vigilante]

Many fail to realize that tier placement is not completely tied to how good a character's arsenal is, but rather how fail it fares against other characters. In Melee, Luigi's moves are theoretically quite baller.

As for nerfing the top tier not changing how they play... As a general rule, if you nerf a move, it will be used less in favour of more effective options. Also, living longer means giving the foe more time to turn the matcha round. I'm not even arguing for or against nerfing top tiers, but rather, I'm arguing that it will make a difference.

 

[Mattnumbers]

You are not the entirety of the PMBR Rikana.

 

[Rikana]

I didn't say I was. I'm saying that basically almost all the pmbr says that top tiers should not be nerfed. Feel free to continue your arguments if you disagree with a majority of the development team. I'll just sit back and watch.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Which is why I'm trying to change their minds. Why would I argue for something they were already going to do anyways? And how about some evidence to back up your claim? I don't see the majority of the PMBR disagreeing, and I'm sure it's not as huge a majority as you think anyways.

 

[Rikana]

Good luck. And I rather not post things from the pmbr. Let me know if people agree with you by nerfing top tiers when they took many years to be developed to peak of their metagames.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Let me know if people agree with you by nerfing top tiers when they took many years to be developed to peak of their metagames.

Isn't this pretty much admitting that people don't want them nerfed for selfish reasons, rather than for the good of the game? It's the reason it took so long for MK to get banned.

 

[Rikana]

Like I said, let me know if they agree with you then. I don't represent everyone, like mentioned. If you feel that people will so strongly agree with your point of view, I'm opened to hear about it. But, I honestly think that many will disagree.

And what do you mean for the good of the game? Melee is amazing with spacies as top tiers. Although that's just personal preference, majority would agree.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Matt, your ignoring my previous point. You wanna nerf things that aren't overpowered to begin with and will make the character much, much worse for intermediate players since they can't do the damage they need to do anymore.

You don't tamper with a great thing is essentially the point people are making to you.

 

[Mattnumbers]

My point is that they ARE overpowered though. And P:M is being made as a competitive game so they should balance for high level play, not low/intermediate (although intermediate play shouldn't suffer TOO much)

And by overpowered I mean they are above the amount of power that the PMBR should be aiming for in characters.

If done cautiously, there is the potential to turn a great thing into an amazing thing.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

my thought on the whole nerf thing (not like anyone necessarily cares what i think) is that we should of been working off pal melee. it honestly is a more balanced game then our melee to begin with. but thats just my opinion

 

[I R MarF]

Besides, Marth isn't exactly the most difficult character to use but do people complain about him? No. He's one of the most core characters of what "FFer only" players believe Melee should be.

ftr I'm not saying Marth is like Jiggz level difficulty, I'm saying there's a notable gap in tech skill between him and spacies.

Here is a tech skill tier list of personal opinion, but i would like to think its kind of accurate. When you read this list, consider their placement as how much tech skill is needed to achieve thier peak potential:

Top Tier
1: ICs (Desyncing)
2: Peach (Float Cancelling, DJCing)
3/4: Fox/Falco (You know)

High Tier
5/6/7: Ness, Yoshi, Mewtwo (DJCing, egg cancelling, whatever)
8: Samus (Missile Cancelling, Super WD)
9: C. Falcon (Moon Walking, Spacing)

Mid Tier
10/11: Pikachu/ Pichu (Execution, Spacing)
12/13: Marth, Roy (Tiipper non-tipper Spacing)
14/15: Link, Y Link (Spacing, Bomb Cancelling)

Low Tier
16: Luigi (Spacing)
17/18: Mario/Doc (Spacing)
19: Ganondorf

Bottom Tier:
20: Jiggs
21: Shiek

Unaccounted for: Bowser, Zelda, Kirby, G&W (I have no idea where to place these guys)

TBH, the amount of tech skill characters need to be mastered doesn't prove too much. Anyone looking at this list would agree that Luigi, Mario, and Doc are harder characters to win with than Marth or C. Falcon, but Marth never truly becomes a flying hitbox and the precision needed for tipping and not-tipping makes him require more tech skill. C. Falcon's superior airspeed and ground speed also makes spacing correctly with him require more practice than the bros.

So what am i getting at here? Well, a lot of characters are harder to play even though they require less tech skill. This doesn't bother anyone, what bothers people is when there is a character who requires less tech skill AND they are easier to play with on top of it. *cough* shiek *cough*

 

[Xebenkeck]

I dunno I think there are two obvious nerfs that could work and not wreck the character and those are

sheik -> PAL dthrow
falco -> meteor instead of spike on dair
then:
fox -> i dunno maybe lasers do less dmg

jiggz -> i dont think is top tier, she is falcon/peach level.
marth -> i also dont think is top tier.

These nerfs dont wreck the top 3 chars but it makes them more bareable to deal with.

 

[Archangel]

Endless *****ing

I am starting to think that you aren't following melee at all. Fox/Falco aren't overpowered. Some of the best spacies players were outplaced by a ****ing Doctor Mario....Not buffed plain melee Doc. I can see a complaint for Sheik's chain throw but aside from that nobody in the top is nearly as high up as Metaknight. Personally I think you should get some more experience in the game before you start complaining. You are starting to sound like one of those guys that gets beat all of the time by a friend of your's fox/falco so now you want them nerfed "for the good of the game".

honestly for every post you've made I could post 2 videos of a high level spacie player losing to a non top tier player. I'm talking Melee Samus, Link, Pikachu, Mario/doc, Luigi, Peach, Falcon, Donkey Kong, Roy, Mew2...etc.

If they can be beat by a player who's actually good enough then I'd say nerfing them is counterproductive. They tried it in PAL anyway all it does is **** things up for the most part.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Spacies are overpowered? Oh, okay then.

 

[standardtoaster]

Wow, I take off one day to do homework and I come back to all of this arguing. Why does the thread end up like this almost every week. -_-

 

[Rikana]

Because you aren't making enough bread.

 

[drsusredfish]

to me the PMBR isnt making every fighter have the same strength and combos as fox and falco but every fighter has some aspect of their character that the spacie actually has to worry about. exp. bowser armor. zelda's land canceled dins, Link insta combos. look at rob he doent have the same kill power and combos as most fighters but he can handle a spacie pretty well. look at peach defiantley no kill power but she can handle spacies. if a fighter has one or two tools that completley blows up spaceis specifically then match ups are going to be really diffenrent. to me the spacies are balanced already considering the amount of technical skill needed to play them and how easiily you can combo, chain grab, or gimp them. I still despise them but they arent completley broken if you have the correct tools to fight them.

 

[Cubelarooso]

That's the worst definition of overpowered.
As was said, new characters will attain the power of Melee top tiers after release, but still be totally fair and beatable. If we nerfed the top tiers now, it would only make sense to go ahead nerf those characters when buffing the characters who turned out to be much worse than anticipated. They may be nerfed or buffed too much, and the cycle continues, and the game enters a constant state of flux, and everyone will be whining for changes ALL THE TIME (more than even actually playing), and no metagame will develop, and Brawl +.
Better to just have a goal (high tier, I'd say about Marth level), and some allowable range of variability (tournament viability, I'd say Samus to a bit over Fox), and just not touch the game when everyone's in that range.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Here is a tech skill tier list of personal opinion, but i would like to think its kind of accurate. When you read this list, consider their placement as how much tech skill is needed to achieve thier peak potential:

Top Tier
1: ICs (Desyncing)
2: Peach (Float Cancelling, DJCing)
3/4: Fox/Falco (You know)

High Tier
5/6/7: Ness, Yoshi, Mewtwo (DJCing, egg cancelling, whatever)
8: Samus (Missile Cancelling, Super WD)
9: C. Falcon (Moon Walking, Spacing)

Mid Tier
10/11: Pikachu/ Pichu (Execution, Spacing)
12/13: Marth, Roy (Tiipper non-tipper Spacing)
14/15: Link, Y Link (Spacing, Bomb Cancelling)

Low Tier
16: Luigi (Spacing)
17/18: Mario/Doc (Spacing)
19: Ganondorf

Bottom Tier:
20: Jiggs
21: Shiek

Unaccounted for: Bowser, Zelda, Kirby, G&W (I have no idea where to place these guys)

This is not very accurate at all. Dysynching requires very little tech skill. A single DD or Roll and they are desynched and from their it's just rhythmic. Fox and Falco require substantially more tech skill than Peach, Yoshi requires much more than Mewtwo and lolness, Spacing is not a part of tech skill, Zelda requires very little tech skill, Jigglypuff requires more tech skill than you assume, etc. etc.

But really, desynching is easy modo middle tier.

 

[Rikana]

Fox requires the most amount of tech skills. Period. You have to be extremely consistent with him. Especially in tournaments that go longer than a day. Pikachu is debatable. You could ledge cancel his quick attacks to make him much more efficient like Axe's Pika.

Also, let's nerf wheat. Using wheat in our sandwhiches makes us full faster. Its a 90-10 matchup for wheat vs money. We gotta make it more in ratio in order for businesses to gain more money.

 

[Archangel]

I dunno I think there are two obvious nerfs that could work and not wreck the character and those are

sheik -> PAL dthrow
falco -> meteor instead of spike on dair
then:
fox -> i dunno maybe lasers do less dmg

jiggz -> i dont think is top tier, she is falcon/peach level.
marth -> i also dont think is top tier.

These nerfs dont wreck the top 3 chars but it makes them more bareable to deal with.

PAL/ Hybrid Dthrow on Sheik would be find imo but then again I have no answers for Sheik I'm a Marth main and...well sheik vs marth is a pray for the Best MU most days...unless I get lucky and start off with a lead somehow. then...spacing ftw!

anyways Falco Meteor is a bad idea. it ruins his pillars which is basically what Falco is. Imagine Falco vs Falcon.(Shine-Dair-*Falcon jumps out and knees him in the face*....). Then it reduces Falco to a mostly laser and run away only character with a few tilt combos and shine-other aerials but his Shine dairing will be pretty much ruined. Puff should have to charge her rest like Wario imo. Marth being able to backwards ledge grab and having a usable Side-B I think might be enough. Maybe making his counter reflect projectiles right back like a cape or shine would help . Fox's lasers already don't do much damage. Perhaps you can take away his firewall when he firefox upb's. I don't think that would hurt him too much...perhaps make gimps easier for characters with little range or priority on their aerials.

 

[I R MarF]

I dunno I think there are two obvious nerfs that could work and not wreck the character and those are

sheik -> PAL dthrow
falco -> meteor instead of spike on dair
then:
fox -> i dunno maybe lasers do less dmg

jiggz -> i dont think is top tier, she is falcon/peach level.
marth -> i also dont think is top tier.

These nerfs dont wreck the top 3 chars but it makes them more bareable to deal with.

Shiek == yes
falco == As much as i'd love to see people jumping out of pillaring, the best nerf for falco without changing him would be to give him a laser limit and passive recharge. He also needs the spiking property when hitting grounded opponents to send them out. Thats what helps him a lot in MU's against Jiggs and Peach IMO
fox == his lasers aren't what makes him great

jiggz == This is a case where there is nothing you can really do about it. Playstyles is really what makes her awful tbh
Marth == He isn't op'd at all so i agree with you

I am starting to think that you aren't following melee at all. Fox/Falco aren't overpowered. Some of the best spacies players were outplaced by a ****ing Doctor Mario....Not buffed plain melee Doc. I can see a complaint for Sheik's chain throw but aside from that nobody in the top is nearly as high up as Metaknight. Personally I think you should get some more experience in the game before you start complaining. You are starting to sound like one of those guys that gets beat all of the time by a friend of your's fox/falco so now you want them nerfed "for the good of the game".

honestly for every post you've made I could post 2 videos of a high level spacie player losing to a non top tier player. I'm talking Melee Samus, Link, Pikachu, Mario/doc, Luigi, Peach, Falcon, Donkey Kong, Roy, Mew2...etc.

If they can be beat by a player who's actually good enough then I'd say nerfing them is counterproductive. They tried it in PAL anyway all it does is **** things up for the most part.

individual skill doesn't really prove anything. I bet you yourself could find a group of Melee n00bs or whatever and beat them all with bowser. It doesn't mean bowser shouldn't be buffed.

If there are two people of absolute equal skill, but one keeps losing because he is playing a low tier character, its obvious that its the character or MU thats affecting the outcome.

 

[standardtoaster]

In what way was marth's forward b buffed? O.o

 

[Archangel]

individual skill doesn't really prove anything. I bet you yourself could find a group of Melee n00bs or whatever and beat them all with bowser. It doesn't mean bowser shouldn't be buffed.

If there are two people of absolute equal skill, but one keeps losing because he is playing a low tier character, its obvious that its the character or MU thats affecting the outcome.

I wasn't talking about a group of noobs. I was talking about results from events such as pound 5 or Genesis 2. The best players against the best. It's safe to assume that the best representations of the characters are in the higher placing spots no? Besides TAS Falco and especially Fox are far better than any human player can get too.

Marth's forward b is faster now and less punishable.

 

[Mono.]

Let me know if people agree with you by nerfing top tiers when they took many years to be developed to peak of their metagames.

Why is something like that a factor when balancing a game?

 

[Kink-Link5]

anyways Falco Meteor is a bad idea. it ruins his pillars which is basically what Falco is.

In what way would making Dair Meteor ruin his ability to shine -> dair on shield? You could make dair hit sideways and pillaring would be exactly the same.

Imagine Falco vs Falcon.(Shine-Dair-*Falcon jumps out and knees him in the face*....).

Meteor Canceling window was changed a while ago and this situation would never arise in a realistic scenario. Stop assuming this is Melee and stop playing Super Theory Bros.

 

[Archangel]

it's a factor because....well it took Fox/Falco 10 years to get where they are. Took alot of characters that long to rise and fall and some of them will still continue to rise and fall. Remember at some point spacies went on a losing streak at big events for a bout a year or 2. Everyone was screaming peach for top tier and nerf jiggz...or did you all forget?

In what way would making Dair Meteor ruin his ability to shine -> dair on shield? You could make dair hit sideways and pillaring would be exactly the same.

sounds like someone who doesn't play or see high level falco. yeah you can make shield pressure would be the same technically but after you do hit the shine with SDI and Dair hitting sideways alot of characters from melee and newcomers will have an easier time dealing with falco. It's a silly nerf.

as for the canceling window. I was giving a random example....It's still a possibility and well I only play melee so it's obviously the only reference point I have right now. No need to be a ****head.

 

[Mono.]

it's a factor because....well it took Fox/Falco 10 years to get where they are. Took alot of characters that long to rise and fall and some of them will still continue to rise and fall. Remember at some point spacies went on a losing streak at big events for a bout a year or 2. Everyone was screaming peach for top tier and nerf jiggz...or did you all forget?

No, my gripe with that is it's a form of bias, which has no place in balancing a fighting game.

 

[standardtoaster]

Marth's forward b is faster now and less punishable.

His side b hits on the same frame and has the same hitbox stats as melee. Not really sure how it's less punishable then. Unless you mean the demo, which didn't have melee DI.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The knockback trajectory of a move still doesn't effect its shield damage or stun. How is pillaring, a shield pressure technique, ruined by making Falco's dair meteor instead of spike? There are plenty of other reasons to argue against Dair meteor but Pillaring isn't one of them.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Disagree with me about nerfing top tiers; immediately talk about what they should do to nerf top tiers.

Cool guys, real cool

Armada beat HBox's Jiggs with YLink, obviously YLink is an amazing character huh spam_arrows?

 

[Archangel]

No, my gripe with that is it's a form of bias, which has no place in balancing a fighting game.

You are missing the point. It's not that they deserve to be there because of all the hard work players over 10 years put in. It's the fact that the game can evolve through tough training and competitiveness pushing yourself and your character to it's limit. The point is that the potential for Spacies and everyone else who's risen to their current peaks in 2011 could have been played the exact same way in 2001. The point is as long as the potential is there either immediate or buried below the surface waiting to be discovered. The point is the game takes on a life path of it's own and so do the characters. The worst character upon the official release of this game may have the potential to be high or even top tier 10 years from now....that is the point.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Shiek == yes
falco == As much as i'd love to see people jumping out of pillaring, the best nerf for falco without changing him would be to give him a laser limit and passive recharge. He also needs the spiking property when hitting grounded opponents to send them out. Thats what helps him a lot in MU's against Jiggs and Peach IMO
fox == his lasers aren't what makes him great

Making Falco Dair a meteor doesnt mean it has to be weak, hell i would say change it to a meteor but it be the strongest meteor in the game. It doesnt have to be zelda dtilt weak. But being a Meteor does help tone him down a tad. Pillaring on shield would still work, and a grounded Dair shouldn't change, it would still act like Ganons grounded Dair.

Fox - Agreed lasers don't make him great, but in a match against fox we already established percent is a huge factor a few posts ago. Currently Fox's lasers do 3% fresh. If that were changed to even 2%. Lets say fox hits you with 5 lasers per stock. That is 5% less damage, and in say a Jiggs vs Fox match or Peach vs Fox match that 5% can be a huge difference.