Project M Social Thread

[Vigilante]

I think that was the point. Although I think a slightly more lopsided example would be more realistic.

Yeah, my point is that matchups can be bad but probably won,t be abysmal. I think that the worse matchup I've encoutnered in PM is Lucario VS Jiggs.

 

[Divinokage]

Well, you will have bad matchups, but I doubt there will be any matchup worse than say... "Spacie VS Jiggs". There will od course be bad matchups as I'm sure you are aware, but we hoping to have every character viable. It would probably still be a good idea to use two different characters to cover your main's bad matchups, but as you said, it would still be entierly feasible to be a specialist and do "better" than in Melee. while using a non-top tier.

If anything, I think it is the top tier players who will start looking around for secondaries.

I wouldn't because using 2 different characters means you are sacrificing understanding for an easier-out of the bad match-up. If you never learn how to overcome all match-ups with one character then that might make you a weaker player in general. You won't have the deep understanding about why it makes a character strong or weak in whatever areas. I don't know I guess it's up to you but I wouldn't do it, I like it better to completely understand one character with every match-up and beat every player with that understanding rather than taking the risk of CPing a character. Well at least in tournament..

In friendlies I do play multiple characters but it's more to understand the psychology to why my opponent would do the things he does, I want to know what he's looking for when he's playing me, so that helps me a lot too.

 

[Strong Badam]

Does Strong Bad count as a character?

This made me smile haha thanks

 

[Vigilante]

To be fair Kage, I only use Lucario in tournaments now, lol., but part of the reason I play somany characters is for testing purposes right now, lol.

 

[Archangel]

Of course I read that, doesn't stop me from disagreeing.

Another reason I think that is because since afaik they aren't buffing some of the higher end characters that are still worse than spacies/top tier so that leaves them where they are (IE not top of the line). I know that there will always be characters that are average and characters that are at the top but I think it's unnecessary to let these characters slide as being "good enough" when you pretty much know for certain they won't be as good as others. At the same time, I think these characters are at a good power level (less than 9000) and that it's the ones above them who are just too good. As CORY said we don't want this to end up being Project: Marvel.

Just so you get it nerfing Fox and Falco will not change anything. It is IMPOSSIBLE to even out every Match-up. Someone will be beating out someone else consistently in the end regardless. Not to mention Fox and Falco aren't broken. Considering everyone except puff/sheik have buffs. Sheik has a greatly buffed DownB. Many still think Puff if played right goes close to even with those 2 as well. Marth has a slight buff in his SideB which may help him in but for the most part that MU is winnable. Then there are the x-factor changes to the physics. Like grabbing the ledge backwards for example. All things considered I think most Fox/Falco players will have a heard enough time dealing with the even better version of characters like Falcon, Peach, Pikachu, Luigi, Ganon...etc. On top of relearning all of their Match-ups they have to contend with new heavy hitting beast mode characters.

So...trust me nerfing them won't do anything but piss off the target audience.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Just so you get it nerfing Fox and Falco will not change anything. It is IMPOSSIBLE to even out every Match-up.

With that mindset I suppose it's pointless to even rebalance the game at all. It WILL change things to nerf characters that are better than others, even if it's impossible to be completely even the gap can always be tightened. It remains to be seen how it will end up, but I think based on their movesets they won't be overcome by a non-ridiculous character. A frame 1 move with invincibility that can be jump cancelled is hard to beat, especially when they have so many other things going for them.

 

[hotdogturtle]

What happened with Marth's side-B? And what buffs did Fox and Falco get, or are you talking about the backwards ledge grabbing which saves them from accidental suicides?

 

[Comeback Kid]

The one thing your missing here Matt is if the spacies and other top tier are nerfed, the dev team will no longer know who's the best anymore while balancing the game.

You NEED a consistent top level of power in order to buff everyone else up to that level. Otherwise you have no idea who's the best and what other characters need to be the best.

It would be a mess guaranteed.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

Agreed. That's one of the reasons Brawl+ got screwed over.

 

[Mattnumbers]

They would just buff using another character/characters as the target. As was said a bit ago they aren't using Spacies anyways.

You would use those characters to determine how much to nerf the spacies as well. Basically what I'm saying is that current top tiers are above the power level the PMBR should be aiming for.

 

[Mono.]

I honestly think that you'll only get but so far when trying to balance a fighting game in a sense of buffing all the other characters to the Top Tiers' level with no sort of nerfs at all to them. Something will have to go, whether miniscule or grandoise. Nerfing spacies and what have you may piss off those mains, but if it really comes down to it, they're gonna have to deal with it, pick up another character, or go right back to Melee if it hurts them so bad. Just like any other fighting game that receives rebalancing.

I don't think I've ever seen rebalancing done like that at all, actually. But who knows. Maybe the Dev team can make some sort of magic happen.

 

[Comeback Kid]

I honestly think that you'll only get but so far when trying to balance a fighting game in a sense of buffing all the other characters to the Top Tiers' level with no sort of nerfs at all to them. Something will have to go, whether miniscule or grandoise. Nerfing spacies and what have you may piss off those mains, but if it really comes down to it, they're gonna have to deal with it, pick up another character, or go right back to Melee if it hurts them so bad. Just like any other fighting game that receives rebalancing.

I actually don't think I've ever seen rebalancing done like that at all, actually. But who knows. Maybe the Dev team can make some sort of magic happen.

Sirlin has this basic philosophy that one should shoot to make every character high tier. If you undershoot or overshoot a little, doesn't really matter. But he isn't against nerfing per se.

Better to have an entire cast of beastly fighters, all great but some better, then nerfing them so they all suck in equal amounts.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Sirlin has this basic philosophy that one should shoot to make every character high tier. If you undershoot or overshoot a little, doesn't really matter.

Better to have an entire cast of beastly fighters, all great but some better, then nerfing them so they all suck in equal amounts.

^ best kind of mentality.

I mean if Fox could like... shine infinite every character through some silliness without a wall that'd be something that'd need to be nerfed. But if something is only overcentralizing because other characters suck, then no need to nerf when you can just buff the others.

Besides, a game full of broken characters can balance itself out. So long as nothing is truly broken, like guaranteed 0-deaths on characters that reduce MUs that could be deep to nothing (like Pikachu vs. Fox in Brawl. Potentially a very deep MU that's reduced to Pika landing one grab and killing Fox. Or Sheik vs. a bunch of characters in Melee). Such things obviously need not necessarily nerfs, but at least retooling.

 

[UltiMario]

This freaking thread.

-10% Project M
110% everything else

Love it.

 

[Mono.]

Sirlin has this basic philosophy that one should shoot to make every character high tier. If you undershoot or overshoot a little, doesn't really matter. But he isn't against nerfing per se.

Better to have an entire cast of beastly fighters, all great but some better, then nerfing them so they all suck in equal amounts.

Which I agree with in terms of making characters viable. But this thing of bringing characters to spacie level? They're just asking for failure on some part with that one balance wise.

 

[Mattnumbers]

This freaking thread.

-10% Project M
110% everything else

Love it.

What? We're talking about Project M RIGHT NOW. I don't know what you're talking about.

Better to have an entire cast of beastly fighters, all great but some better, then nerfing them so they all suck in equal amounts.

Slightly nerfing top tier character to fit into high tiers is not making them suck at all, unless you think high tier characters suck, and in that case I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Rikana]

It's an ongoing discussion in the backroom. We didn't exactly decide to make characters top tier. We did discuss it but it seems much more logical to have everyone aimed at high tier instead.

I personally think its better to be aimed at mid/high.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Why?

I mean seriously, why bother rebalancing a game, but with the stipulation that spacies should still dominate?

Might as well have not bothered at al and gone for 1:1 Melee.

 

[Mono.]

It's an ongoing discussion in the backroom. We didn't exactly decide to make characters top tier. We did discuss it but it seems much more logical to have everyone aimed at high tier instead.

I personally think its better to be aimed at mid/high.

See, this is what I don't understand. If that is the goal of the PMBR, why are we keeping Melee Top Tiers at Top Tier level and not High Tier like the rest?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Because Melee purists will whine.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Melee purists will whine no matter what. I mean people seriously invalidate the game over Falco's laser animation.

 

[Mono.]

Melee purist will exist regardless even if PMBR decided to make it a 1:1 game with better visuals.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I never said it was a good reason, just that it seems to be the main reason.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Because they're only aiming at high tier, not necessarily hitting it. There will inevitably be some variation, especially when the top pros get their hands on the new characters' new tools and develop the metagame, using things in unforseen ways and revealing character's hidden abilities. Some characters will turn out to be around Melee mid tier, others at top, and even possibly above the Spacies.

And if we want this game to succeed, we will need the support of great and famous players, IE Spacie mains. They're not necessarily purists, and can be persuadable, but we'll have to offer them something they'll accept, and almost no one ever accepts nerfs to their main. (BTW, haven't seen too much TL in streams, so just going on hearsay, but if it doesn't already, his Up-B needs to at least go as far as Melee YL's)

 

[Mono.]

It's not good reason. It's silly to try to convert purist as it is. They're already going to go into the game with a negative attitude and will find something wrong or find a reason why to go right back to Melee.

It's a better idea to appeal way more to the optimists; people more open-minded to what Project Melee has to offer.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

It's also a good idea to appeal to Brawl players.

Because a fairly sizable amount are fairly interested in P:M.

Speaking of which is Platform Cancelling on a to-do list to be removed, or is it intentionally kept? I was pretty happy when I discovered it was still doable.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

Better to have an entire cast of beastly fighters, all great but some better, then nerfing them so they all suck in equal amounts.

I agree. There's no real reason to make the spacies still dominate. I'm not saying everyone should be spacie tier, but there should definitely be characters who are as good as the spacies if not slightly better. If that makes people *****, I say let them *****.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Because they're only aiming at high tier, not necessarily hitting it. There will inevitably be some variation, especially when the top pros get their hands on the new characters' new tools. Some characters will turn out to be around Melee mid tier, others at top, and even possibly above the Spacies.

And if we want this game to succeed, we will need the support of great and famous players, IE Spacie mains.

Exactly! You give them the tools but it's up to the players to put them together and make a high tier character top tier.

And with some people johning that buffed up characters are "too easy" to use now, anybody going to even think about taking away any of the tech skill of the game as it exists? No way.

 

[Rikana]

Why?

I mean seriously, why bother rebalancing a game, but with the stipulation that spacies should still dominate?

Might as well have not bothered at al and gone for 1:1 Melee.

You guys are jumping to conclusion way too soon. We can't class the characters as high tier unless we have them go through tournaments and gather data based on years of metagame development. We only make them "high tier" by giving them enough tools to assume they're high tiers. By having the goal set on that level, there WILL be accidental top tiers and mid tiers.

So before you guys jump on the band wagon saying melee purists will whine, understand that we're assuming what we give will put them in a high tier position. No way will we know for sure that they will stay as high tiers.

 

[I R MarF]

See, this is what I don't understand. If that is the goal of the PMBR, why are we keeping Melee Top Tiers at Top Tier level and not High Tier like the rest?

Because the top tiers are the most played, most figured out characters in the entire melee roster. Their incredible potential is undisputed and realized. if you go further down the tier list, the more potential is unrealized. Except maybe Bowser, Kirby, and Pichu. They suck.

So why change characters 10 years of competitive play[-testing] has sculpted? They serve as the best comparison you could get when characters below them are buffed and re-balanced for a melee enviroment. If you nerf the top tiers, you are ruining your best examples for balance.

The only time it would even make sense to nerf them is well after all of the other characters have been buffed and completely tested. This could be like a 2-3 year period after P:M's release.

Now don't get me wrong, I think Jiggs is too low risk for Melee, Shiek is too easy and is the essentially "play to win" character, and Falco's lasers are too abusable, but the nerf train should be held off.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Besides, Marth isn't exactly the most difficult character to use but do people complain about him? No. He's one of the most core characters of what "FFer only" players believe Melee should be.

ftr I'm not saying Marth is like Jiggz level difficulty, I'm saying there's a notable gap in tech skill between him and spacies.

 

[genkaku]

the PM tier list will be impossible to judge until time has past and better players pick up the game. Like, we all talk about puff being top tier, but how many of us can play puff like Hbox? Before Hbox and mango puff was where on the tier list?
aiming for high tier and having a result that is currently slightly lower is fine in my opinion, 'cause it won't be long before someone figures out that x move at y spacing is so much more godly than any of the devs anticipated.

 

[Mattnumbers]

So before you guys jump on the band wagon saying melee purists will whine, understand that we're assuming what we give will put them in a high tier position. No way will we know for sure that they will stay as high tiers.

We're saying they will whine if you nerf Top tiers, not if you buff other characters, although I suppose I could imagine the same people that whine about minor animations whining about that sort of thing.

 

[Rikana]

Top tiers should not be and will not be nerfed. Melee players went through 10 years to grasp what they're capable of. We're not going to alienate players that spent so much time trying to figure out what kind of viable strategy or character to work around the tops.

 

[Mono.]

The only time it would even make sense to nerf them is well after all of the other characters have been buffed and completely tested. This could be like a 2-3 year period after P:M's release.

This is what I'm talking about and exactly what I foresee happening.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Them being nerfed does not mean their playstyle will change at all. They will be almost the same just with some worse numbers on their moves.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Most of the top tier aren't top because they have overpowered moves, it's that they have awesome options. You can't nerf their numbers without nerfing their viablitiy and you can't nerf their options without nerfing their playstyle.

 

[Rikana]

@Mattnumbers: Yes it does. When you have a new cast coming to compete along with veteran characters that are also viable, it completely changes how its going to be played. Even adding 1% damage goes a long way.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I fail to see how that could possibly be true unless it made it so that something no longer comboed/allowed for tech chases.

You now die 20% later from fox Upsmash, yeah that totally changes everything about the character

 

[Rikana]

It does, actually.