Project M Social Thread

[Mattnumbers]

You are missing the point. It's not that they deserve to be there because of all the hard work players over 10 years put in. It's the fact that the game can evolve through tough training and competitiveness pushing yourself and your character to it's limit. The point is that the potential for Spacies and everyone else who's risen to their current peaks in 2011 could have been played the exact same way in 2001. The point is as long as the potential is there either immediate or buried below the surface waiting to be discovered. The point is the game takes on a life path of it's own and so do the characters. The worst character upon the official release of this game may have the potential to be high or even top tier 10 years from now....that is the point.

A character never actually changes over time unless they patch them. It's just that players learn to play them properly. P:M players have an absolutely MASSIVE head start over people playing Melee when it was released. Character potentials will be realized much faster.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Like how Zelda has nearly the same potential as Fox with none of the downsides and is 90 times easier to use.

 

[kaizo13]

i have yet to see any of the brawl newcomers get completely ***** and overpowered by melee top tiers. The PMBR is doing a great job giving each and every newcomer unique tools and strengths to compete with Melee top tiers. why would we want to balance at a lower level?

shut up with all this nerf talk and wait atleast 6 months after a substantial build is released

 

[Mono.]

You are missing the point. It's not that they deserve to be there because of all the hard work players over 10 years put in. It's the fact that the game can evolve through tough training and competitiveness pushing yourself and your character to it's limit. The point is that the potential for Spacies and everyone else who's risen to their current peaks in 2011 could have been played the exact same way in 2001. The point is as long as the potential is there either immediate or buried below the surface waiting to be discovered. The point is the game takes on a life path of it's own and so do the characters. The worst character upon the official release of this game may have the potential to be high or even top tier 10 years from now....that is the point.

Which is what I initially thought was the point, until it was worded in a fashion that heavily implied otherwise.

 

[Mattnumbers]

It's about the level of power they are aiming for being below what top tiers are at. If they end up being successful at making characters end up around that level top tiers will still be the best because they are exempt from being put to this standard for some reason.

 

[Archangel]

Disagree with me about nerfing top tiers; immediately talk about what they should do to nerf top tiers.

Cool guys, real cool

Armada beat HBox's Jiggs with YLink, obviously YLink is an amazing character huh spam_arrows?

I was trying to think of some reasonable changes that wouldn't technically make the characters worse.

As for Hbox vs Armada that is the most obvious and yet stupid thing you could post. Most insiders(people who know the game beyond what is going on in the current). Already know Ylink and Zelda if played well give Puff fits. That is a matter of 1 character having a hard time with 1 character.

Y.link can give puff a run for her money or if you play gayer than puff win somewhat easily. However if you put those players against a good sheik. Y.link will get bodied! and Puff will roll on sheik. it's a match-up difference

Y.link doesn't do as well against anyone else ranked above him. In fact he loses badly to all of them except 2 he has a closer match-up with...

The knockback trajectory of a move still doesn't effect its shield damage or stun. How is pillaring, a shield pressure technique, ruined by making Falco's dair meteor instead of spike? There are plenty of other reasons to argue against Dair meteor but Pillaring isn't one of them.

you...I just said it was a random example. Still having a dair meteor instead of a dair spike is just silly. PAL Marth makes me cry...if anything the window for spiking could be shorter and then after that have it change. That would be a reasonable change I guess.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I was trying to think of some reasonable changes that wouldn't technically make the characters worse.

As for Hbox vs Armada that is the most obvious and yet stupid thing you could post. Most insiders(people who know the game beyond what is going on in the current). Already know Ylink and Zelda if played well give Puff fits. That is a matter of 1 character having a hard time with 1 character.

Y.link can give puff a run for her money or if you play gayer than puff win somewhat easily. However if you put those players against a good sheik. Y.link will get bodied! and Puff will roll on sheik. it's a match-up difference

Y.link doesn't do as well against anyone else ranked above him. In fact he loses badly to all of them except 2 he has a closer match-up with...

Of course I know that, the point still stands that it proves your rational to be faulty. Just because a character beats another character in a tourney doesn't make them better as a character.

And what is the point of making changes to top tiers without them making them worse. That's like all the negatives of nerfing them without any of the positives.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Marth's dair is used to kill. Falco's dair hardly sees use as his primary kill move in the current game and is primarily used to set up on-stage combos, the lot of which are close enough to the ground that the opponent doesn't have a chance to meteor cancel them in the first place. The moves are hardly comparable just because they both spike. That's like comparing Jiggz's bair with Falco's because they both hit sideways.

 

[Archangel]

Of course I know that, the point still stands that it proves your rational to be faulty. Just because a character beats another character in a tourney doesn't make them better as a character.

oh no. You are actually incorrect. I'm saying the drastic difference between Spacies and the others in melee is...well overrated.

Doc(unlike young link) Can beat Fox and Falco in tournament. Not mediocre or noobs either but the best players among us. so for Docs to win would be more the same as Armada's Young link beating Amsah at APEX 2. Since that hasn't happened...then no you are not on the same wavelength just yet.

 

[Archangel]

Falco's dair hardly sees use as his primary kill

What are you smoking?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Some top of the screen shines, F-smash, and bair.

Like yeah, maybe if this was 2006 Falcos would be using dair as their killer at top level, but not in the current meta.

 

[Mattnumbers]

oh no. You are actually incorrect. I'm saying the drastic difference between Spacies and the others in melee is...well overrated.

Doc(unlike young link) Can beat Fox and Falco in tournament. Not mediocre or noobs either but the best players among us. so for Docs to win would be more the same as Armada's Young link beating Amsah at APEX 2. Since that hasn't happened...then no you are not on the same wavelength just yet.

Shroomed placed as high as he did because he's a good player, and the doc matchup isn't known as well as matchups against higher tiered characters.

And spam it really strikes me how you can act so high and mighty when you really prove almost every time you post how little you know about the game.

 

[Wavebuster]

falco == As much as i'd love to see people jumping out of pillaring, the best nerf for falco without changing him would be to give him a laser limit and passive recharge. He also needs the spiking property when hitting grounded opponents to send them out. Thats what helps him a lot in MU's against Jiggs and Peach IMO

FYI, the meteor cancelable angle in Brawl encompasses 250-290, 20 degrees in either direction from straight down. Spike angles are made by adding 360 to those angles.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Some top of the screen shines, F-smash, and bair.

Like yeah, maybe if this was 2006 Falcos would be using dair as their killer at top level, but not in the current meta.

Not sure if you're serious.

 

[Archangel]

Shroomed placed as high as he did because he's a good player, and the doc matchup isn't known as well as matchups against higher tiered characters.

It's not? Where were you when Bob$ was getting 'shined blinded'? . I won't even go into the because he's a good player argument because I have done it too much it's a stupid argument. You could just as easily say Falco isn't good but Mango is a good player. or Marth isn't good M2K is just a good player. Good players are playing those characters therefore they are good. If a good player picks of pichu and takes on a good sheik and wins...Pichu has lots of potential it just took a good player to expose this. Being a pioneer and a leader in the development of something doesn't mean nobody else can do it. How do you think we got these computers/phones we are using now? Because someone continued someone else's discoveries/inventions and took them to another level. The same thing happens in Melee.

"What one man can do another man can do" ~ Anthony Hopkins.

on another note **** you guys. I'm suppose to be playing skyrim and putting arrows into knees.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Serious as a funeral. Falco's using Dair to kill is at professional level play, not top professional.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Okay so if full meteor is a bad idea then why not a Falcon Dair. Make the spike on Falco be his toe/boot, and anywherre else his body/legs/head be a meteor?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Making the move spike on only part of it is a superfluous change that would only force Falco players to adjust their spacing. It'd be like swapping Jigglypuff's fair and bair around. Sure she couldn't bair you to death any more, but the end result is kind of the same thing with arbitrary changes in Jigglypuff's character that only would cause frustration for the person using her.

Now, making the move spike then the later hits of the move meteor would be a very different sort of deal that emphasises timing instead. In the end however, there are still plenty of arguments against making the move meteor at all (None of them are related to pillaring.).

 

[ETWIST51294]

Serious as a funeral. Falco's using Dair to kill is at professional level play, not top professional.

Say that to PP, who does it all of the time.

 

[Xebenkeck]

To me Falco has three moves that are suspect to being OP.

Shine is one but you cant really change it without drastically changing Falco.

Dair is another

Lasers are the last.

If the top tiers are to be slightly toned down these are the moves to look at for falco IMO.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Say that to PP, who does it all of the time.

I'll have to take your word for it. I've mostly seen PP top shining and use bair against other top professionals with dair kills coming only sparsely.

 

[jalued]

To me Falco has three moves that are suspect to being OP.

Shine is one but you cant really change it without drastically changing Falco.

Dair is another

Lasers are the last.

If the top tiers are to be slightly toned down these are the moves to look at for falco IMO.

i think these nerf talks are poorly thought out and downright stupid.

Yes falco is annoying, but No he shouldn't receive any nerfs.

We want this game to be played by the masses, and nerfing melee player's favorite and loved characters WILL NOT help to draw Brawl and scrub players in, but WILL alienate the large and passionate competitive melee players.

- Limiting falco's allowable onscreen lasers will infuriate players (why shouldnt they be able to fire 5+ lasers at once if they have the tech skill for it?)
- Lowering the damage on the lasers will annoy melee players, and make a negligible difference to his gameplay. The hitstun is what makes his lasers good and we cant change that without ruining him.
- Falco's dair as a meteor is a ridiculous idea that would RUIN him as a character. Possibly making his late dair hitbox a meteor rather than spike, but this would make so little difference that why bother?
- changing his shine is out of the question

This is not a place to moan about how u cant beat a certain character because you personally feel they are broken. Throughout the years, falco has seen alot of metagame changes, and people have worked out how to play against him.

He does not need any changes, because the new characters will alter the MU's so much that he will have to deal with counters.

If we keep the top tiers exactly the same, at least then the back room have something to aim for. Nerfing them will only unbalance the game and set the metagame back by at least a year.

I'll have to take your word for it. I've mostly seen PP top shining and use bair against other top professionals with dair kills coming only sparsely.

dair kills are most commonly used for edgeguards, ledgehop dair being very effective because of the invincibility frames

 

[drsusredfish]

if the pmbr was going to nerf falco, being a meteor or spike depending on timing would actualy be a decent non-extreme nerf for him. 20 frames of spike is a llitle much, 12 frames of spike 8 of meteor would be decent.

edit: but how often does a falco dair hit that late. it realy would be kinda unnoticed but it could be a game changer.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Jalued obviously you failed to read the last couple of pages. No one is moaning about how they can't beat Falco. This isn't about top tiers being completely broken it's about how they shouldn't get excluded from balancing.

 

[jalued]

Jalued obviously you failed to read the last couple of pages. No one is moaning about how they can't beat Falco. This isn't about top tiers being completely broken it's about how they shouldn't get excluded from balancing.

but they are the bar that has been set. If you nerf them, you have nothing to balance the other characters around...

 

[Xebenkeck]

jauled, then why doesnt ness have a 5 frame dair spike, or luigi upB have rest kill power, or mario usmash have fox usmash kill power. Or wolfs shine be like Fox/falco but keep his 7 frame of invincibility? If you want to balance to the top tiers the other charaters have to have similar or the same tools as they do or else the top tiers will still wreck people even though those people got better. Fox 3 stocking a falcon is no different then fox 3 stocking a Pichu or now 3 stocking a Lucas. Fox 3 stocking them all is becuase his character is inheriantly superior to them all.

 

[kaizo13]

.......This isn't about top tiers being completely broken it's about how they shouldn't get excluded from balancing.

they aren't being excluded from balancing...they are setting the standards for balancing. altering them will only set us back as Jalued stated.

Edit: Making a character worse to make other characters better is a poor balancing approach. It's far more reasonable to bring out the full potential of the rest of the cast. (which is exactly what the PMBR is doing)

 

[jalued]

jauled, then why doesnt ness have a 5 frame dair spike, or luigi upB have rest kill power, or mario usmash have fox usmash kill power. Or wolfs shine be like Fox/falco but keep his 7 frame of invincibility? If you want to balance to the top tiers the other charaters have to have similar or the same tools as they do or else the top tiers will still wreck people even though those people got better. Fox 3 stocking a falcon is no different then fox 3 stocking a Pichu or now 3 stocking a Lucas.

first of all, the fox/falcon matchup is starting to be considered even, especially by cactar.

Yes character's do need some traits that are very good to be able to compete, but they are getting them...

we don't want all character's to have the same style of moves though, because every character is different with different playstyles. Mario doesnt need a strong upsmash because of the cape for example.

They seem to be trying to create character that are good at quite a few aspects, so that they are unique, interesting and viable

 

[Xebenkeck]

I said this a long time ago in this thread but I still maintain it, that the PMBR cannot make anything more broken then a shine. 1 frame, combo starter, relector, turn around move, kill set-up, shield pressure, gimping tool, JC into any aerial, JC into WD into anymove like fox usmash. As long as Fox/Falco have it they will be a contender.

So the only way to bring them down is to nerf other aspects of them that are strong, like a 5 frame start-up ,17 frame lasting spike.

The joke of giving everyone a shine, isnt really a joke. A shine is a broken move for what it adds to a character. And Fox/Falco/Wolf are the only ones who have one. It alone gives a character a vast amount of options, something top tiers have.

 

[kaizo13]

I said this a long time ago in this thread but I still maintain it, that the PMBR cannot make anything more broken then a shine. 1 frame, combo starter, relector, turn around move, kill set-up, shield pressure, gimping tool, JC into any aerial, JC into WD into anymove like fox usmash. As long as Fox/Falco have it they will be a contender.

So the only way to bring them down is to nerf other aspects of them that are strong, like a 5 frame start-up ,17 frame lasting spike.

The joke of giving everyone a shine, isnt really a joke. A shine is a broken move for what it adds to a character. And Fox/Falco/Wolf are the only ones who have one.

wrong wrong wrong

"said this a long time ago"...shines aren't what win the matches for them....it's the overall moveset and the potential amount of options they have. I can't believe you think that a character needs a shine to compete with fox/falco.

/fail

 

[Mattnumbers]

They are NOT the standards of balancing. It has been said that they are aiming for High Tier NOT Top Tier. So stop saying that.

 

[jalued]

They are NOT the standards of balancing. It has been said that they are aiming for High Tier NOT top tier. So stop saying that.

they have also said that they won't be changing the top tiers. Stop flogging a dead horse

 

[Mattnumbers]

Yeah well I'm telling them why that's not a good idea. It's not like the game is final yet, they still have time to change their mind.

 

[standardtoaster]

Way too much arguing going on in this thread. Basically, you can't know if a character in Project M is truly high/top tier until the metagame has had time to develop.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Meh that's really the most valid counter-argument of the ones I've been hearing during this debate, that top tiers might not be top tiers any more after the metagame develops. I just think the PMBR should be proactive is all I guess. But I can definitely see that ending up being what happens. I just want to know that if they do end up still dominating that it won't be taboo to talk about tweaking them and toning them down a bit

 

[kaizo13]

2011 fox>2003 fox

nerf 2011 fox cuz he's too good >_>

 

[Cero]

I'm trying to understand.

What's the problem with leaving the spacies alone and buffing everyone else up to around their level?

If the spacies are broken (which I don't even think they are), and we buff all the other characters so they're just as broken, wouldn't that mean that everyone's equally broken (i.e., as close to balanced as the PMBR wants to take it)?

 

[Xebenkeck]

wrong wrong wrong

"said this a long time ago"...shines aren't what win the matches for them....it's the overall moveset and the potential amount of options they have. I can't believe you think that a character needs a shine to compete with fox/falco.

/fail

Did you not get what I said? I said a shine gives fox/falco those large amount of options. On top of there already good movesets. Combine there moveset with the options a shine gives BAM top tier. If Pichu had a shine he would NOT be the worst in the game. He'd easily be a high tier.

Fox/Falco are competed with because they are fastfallers and get easily comboed which holds them back, if fox/falco were zeldas weight we wouldnt be having this convo because melee would have died out years ago due to broken characters.

melee zelda + shine = high tier cause she has a bad moveset in melee. Srsly PMBR give the current build(good moveset) of Zelda a downB shine and see how god broken she becomes. And the amount of salt everyone gives because of how ridiculous she would become.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Fox and Falco get far more benefit than harm from being FFers imo

And games where everyone is broken don't generally work out very well. It's just no fun to play games like that past the initial novelty. Imagine trying to play Brawl- competitively, or Melee with AR.

And I honestly don't think Zelda would gain nearly as much from a shine as Fox/Falco do.

 

[Cero]

Fox and Falco get far more benefit than harm from being FFers imo

And games where everyone is broken don't generally work out very well. It's just no fun to play games like that past the novelty. Imagine trying to play Brawl- competitively.

If you are to assume that what makes a top tier character broken are their wealth of options, then giving the rest of the cast more options shouldn't take away from the fun of the game, imo. I'd say that it would actually add to it.

I think the Fox vs. Marth matchup in Melee is pretty even and those characters don't play like each other at all. Other characters don't have to play like a spacie in order to compete.