Project M Social Thread

[shanus]

Its been a couple years since I played vBrawl, but a good friend of mine was an Oli main and he complained that his mid-air neutral B should have been used for something similar to that. So if multiple Olimar users are hiveminding on a thought for the character, it's probably something to pay attention to.

I've actually tried this exact mechanism before. Sadly, I couldn't find a way for it to work.

I guess it's time to share a drop more. Remember how pikmin go from seed, to bud, to flower in brawl, but nothing changes for the pikmin? Let's just say that's part of the direction we are taking him.

 

[phurgawtin]

Something tells me I should be afraid.. very very afraid.. of a white pikmin with a flower on its head.

 

[GHNeko]

I love when people who don't understand Olimar try to write about him.

The huge discrepancies between Olimar's pikmin encourage you to be mindful of which pikmin is next in line, both for the player, and their opponent. In fact, the most skilled Olimar players not only pay attention to their lines, but manipulate them as well. The most successful opponents of Olimar players take advantage of the next pikmin in line to manipulate Olimar's options.

The misconception that Olimar players and their opponents are slaves to the randomness of the pikmin inexplicably drives the discourse as to what should be done with the character, and this is a horrible path to start down, leading to incredibly boring ideas like making plucks non-random, or reducing the discrepancies between pikmin, so that fewer pikmin can really be played in an optimized manner. This basically makes Olimar a mindless carbon copy of every other character in smash, and doesn't let him shine as one of the most unique smash brothers characters.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if you want to make Olimar work better, give the player more options to manipulate their line, and enhance discrepancies between each pikmin, giving each pikmin a definite strong suit, and a definite weakness. This way, you make it so that any pikmin can be defeated, but the line can be manipulated to mitigate that.

Wtf phootbag. We agree on something?!

 

[ph00tbag]

We do? On what?

 

[Stunts]

Remember how pikmin go from seed, to bud, to flower in brawl, but nothing changes for the pikmin? Let's just say that's part of the direction we are taking him.

you guys never cease to amaze me, and it was the only thing I didn't see coming. I always thought there was a difference in vbrawl, like hitbox changes or something.

 

[GHNeko]

On oli not being homogenized. Lol.

I pretty much made a similar post about letting oli control his pikmins directly, rather than manipulating luck.

And making it so that he can use the same pikmin over and oer until he switches to a new one. Like a stance change character.

The fact that his pikmin vary greatly would lead to amazing things if he could control each manually and not be forced to switch to a new one after using a pikmin.

 

[Juushichi]

I am very excited to see how Olimar continues to develop. You guys are so ****ing awesome.

 

[Vaerix]

So, there is inherently more reason to keep the Pikmin around longer if there are changes between seed/bulb/flower. I'm liking this already. Direct manipulation seems incredibly intriguing.

Also, love the green-thumb puns.

 

[Starscream]

If pikmin couldn't die, that would go against his core design which is a direct translation of the series which he originates from and represents.

Did't you guys already do that to Pokemon Trainer? Not that I really care all that much since gameplay > canon always.

 

[ph00tbag]

On oli not being homogenized. Lol.

I pretty much made a similar post about letting oli control his pikmins directly, rather than manipulating luck.

And making it so that he can use the same pikmin over and oer until he switches to a new one. Like a stance change character.

The fact that his pikmin vary greatly would lead to amazing things if he could control each manually and not be forced to switch to a new one after using a pikmin.

I kind of see the idea of using the same pikmin over and over as a move towards a more static Olimar, though. Although, there is the fact that using a pikmin is usually a good way to get it killed, so it'd be less static than homogenizing the line and forcing Olimar to play the same way no matter what pikmin was out.

If you restricted it to just normals, I can see it working. Toss would kind of require that the line rotate when it's used. Also, how would dsmash work?

 

[Ecks]

That sounds really cool and it makes sense.

Never thought I'd see the day where I would be interested in Olimar. Good job.

 

[humble]

I like the idea of tilts and aerials using the same pikmin, but toss, smashes, and grab cycle the line. I like the idea of increasing strength with the blooming of the flowers, and additionally I agree with a slower pluck. I like the idea of b cycling the order in the air, and I still wish we could get some way to intentionally disjoint the pikmin, would be so awesome. While I loved the idea of footstooling off the pikmin, I understand it's unlikely now that we have the new tether system.

 

[PurDi]

Would it be possible, if we're going down the static pikmin route, to give his aerials the ability to change pikmin or not? I'm not sure how you coded it, but some kind of input like lucario's spirit bomb. So doing an aerial with the c-stick or A doesn't switch the pikmin but A+B or c-stick+B rotates the line once.

That makes him able to mind-game more and can set up really interesting combos if the player knows what exactly to do.

 

[phurgawtin]

I like the idea of tilts and aerials using the same pikmin, but toss, smashes, and grab cycle the line. I like the idea of increasing strength with the blooming of the flowers, and additionally I agree with a slower pluck. I like the idea of b cycling the order in the air, and I still wish we could get some way to intentionally disjoint the pikmin, would be so awesome. While I loved the idea of footstooling off the pikmin, I understand it's unlikely now that we have the new tether system.

QFT. i agree with every word.

Of course, to still let Olimar rotate out his pikmin by choice, the midair neutral B thing (or something similar to) would have to be figured out.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Stop him from changing pikmin automatically every time he uses a pikmin-based move. Give him the ability to switch pikmin manually. Allow him to adjust his moveset attributes on the fly. It will turn him into a far more legitimate character with less inconsistancies in his moveset and give him reliable results and a more stable metagame. It allows him to stay true to his original character design while essentially becoming a stance change character. With this new found stability, I believe he'll be a far more usbale character.

The only problem with this is, wouldn't it make some of the Pikmin way better and more desirable to have at all times? I don't think that you can give 5 different types of Pikmin all their own attributes without some of them completely outclassing other ones.

 

[phurgawtin]

Right now, red pikmin does the most % on aerial attacks, and purple pikmin does the most knockback. White pikmin could be the combo pikmin since it has the least knockback.

So, what would be the inspiration to use the other colors? Perhaps only give his dair meteor to the yellow pikmin, and for variety, give a uair meteor to the blue pikmin?

 

[PurDi]

Not sure if they've changed the hitboxes from the brawl ones, but red is highest damage aerials, yellow has larger hitboxes, purple has highest knockback but reduced range, white semi-spikes on upb and does the most side-b damage, and blue has good knockback on fsmash, bthrow, fthrow, fair and bair.

That's all I know on them...

 

[9Kplus1]

The only problem with this is, wouldn't it make some of the Pikmin way better and more desirable to have at all times? I don't think that you can give 5 different types of Pikmin all their own attributes without some of them completely outclassing other ones.

I doubt that. Damage, knockback, hitlag, and other attributes are more than enough to give each Pikmin its own niche. Purple could have higher damage in exchange for significantly less range when compared to other Pikmin; Electric could have better range than others with more hitlag (making powershielding a very effective defensive maneuver against Yellowmin ?_?); Fire could get a KBG buff at the cost of some damage; Blue could have higher damage for some fancy shield pressure but lower knockback growth; White could give a Lip's Stick effect on contact. There are multiple possibilities for each Pikmin-based attack, thus making the issue of one type being overshadowed by the another less significant.

Then again, coding is limited in the most odd and important of places, so this post is probably invalid >.>

EDIT: Are ghost Pikmin fixable, or have they been fixed already??

 

[phurgawtin]

With the idea that Olimar gets to repetitively use the same Pikmin for his aerials, I think every Pikmin should be viable in the air for their own reasons. You should be able to logically decide which pikmin is the best for your current situation based on your opponent's percentage, location, and how the game has been going. Ignoring sideB, grabs, and smashes, your aerial mindset could look something like the following, as long as all the pikmin have times when you'd want to be swinging with them:

White Pikmin - your enemy is at 0%. this swings the fastest and does the least knockback, letting you slap them around with hard-to-escape low% combos.

Red Pikmin - your enemy is at 50%. the white pikmin combos won't work anymore, time to bring out the highest damaging pikmin in your arsenal.

Purple Pikmin - your enemy is at 100%, swing around this heavy mother****er to get them far off stage

Yellow Pikmin - the gimping pikmin, with a dair spike, and a fair that resembles sheik's trajectory, or something like that.

Blue Pikmin - the mindgame pikmin. uair spikes, dair pops the enemy upwards, fair sends them backwards, and bair sends them forwards. mess up their DI or trick them into going off the stage with ledge fairs.

 

[jalued]

With the idea that Olimar gets to repetitively use the same Pikmin for his aerials, I think every Pikmin should be viable in the air for their own reasons. You should be able to logically decide which pikmin is the best for your current situation based on your opponent's percentage, location, and how the game has been going. Ignoring sideB, grabs, and smashes, your aerial mindset could look something like the following, as long as all the pikmin have times when you'd want to be swinging with them:

White Pikmin - your enemy is at 0%. this swings the fastest and does the least knockback, letting you slap them around with hard-to-escape low% combos.

Red Pikmin - your enemy is at 50%. the white pikmin combos won't work anymore, time to bring out the highest damaging pikmin in your arsenal.

Purple Pikmin - your enemy is at 100%, swing around this heavy mother****er to get them far off stage

Yellow Pikmin - the gimping pikmin, with a dair spike, and a fair that resembles sheik's trajectory, or something like that.

Blue Pikmin - the mindgame pikmin. uair spikes, dair pops the enemy upwards, fair sends them backwards, and bair sends them forwards. mess up their DI or trick them into going off the stage with ledge fairs.

i would hate to play a good olimar with these... sounds horrendous

 

[Comeback Kid]

I mostly just care that Olimar himself is a fun character who is no longer defined by his Brawl limitations. The Pikmin are just the means to this end and I hope the developers realize that before going crazy making each Pikmin feel totally unique. The purple and white ones are meant to stick out but the others not so much.

 

[Xebenkeck]

I'm definatley with ghneko on olimar, he needs a "stable" moveset in order for olimar to develope a proper metagame. He can't be limited by a randomness factor.

 

[ETWIST51294]

With the idea that Olimar gets to repetitively use the same Pikmin for his aerials, I think every Pikmin should be viable in the air for their own reasons. You should be able to logically decide which pikmin is the best for your current situation based on your opponent's percentage, location, and how the game has been going. Ignoring sideB, grabs, and smashes, your aerial mindset could look something like the following, as long as all the pikmin have times when you'd want to be swinging with them:

White Pikmin - your enemy is at 0%. this swings the fastest and does the least knockback, letting you slap them around with hard-to-escape low% combos.

Red Pikmin - your enemy is at 50%. the white pikmin combos won't work anymore, time to bring out the highest damaging pikmin in your arsenal.

Purple Pikmin - your enemy is at 100%, swing around this heavy mother****er to get them far off stage

Yellow Pikmin - the gimping pikmin, with a dair spike, and a fair that resembles sheik's trajectory, or something like that.

Blue Pikmin - the mindgame pikmin. uair spikes, dair pops the enemy upwards, fair sends them backwards, and bair sends them forwards. mess up their DI or trick them into going off the stage with ledge fairs.

Why not give blue what you said Yellow has and give yellows the big *** hitboxes they have now?

 

[Comeback Kid]

I'm definatley with ghneko on olimar, he needs a "stable" moveset in order for olimar to develope a proper metagame. He can't be limited by a randomness factor.

Just wanted to add that having the leaf/bud/flower on the Pikmin's head determine damage more than pikmin type takes away most of the random factor, especially if plucking chains remain random.

 

[NeoZ]

His sexual prefence is his own business lol

And how is Kirby coming along? Can he inhale the M neutrals, yet?

What's an M neutral?

 

[9Kplus1]

Any neutral B changed from its vBrawl counterpart (e.g, Offense Up, Spirit Bomb, and Shieldbreaker (the former two can't be copied via inhale))

 

[Stunts]

Any neutral B changed from its vBrawl counterpart (e.g, Offense Up, Spirit Bomb (can't be copied via inhale))

where do you guys hear this? this makes me sad. what would he do, then?

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

Just the vBrawl moves. Kirby hats have their own moveset.pac, they don't "take" the player's move.

 

[MonkUnit]

Kirby's inhale should take the opponent's soul.

 

[Glöwworm]

So that 'New Blogpost' part of the thread title has been there for a while now. You either remove it or add timestamps to the thread title, lol. Can't tell if there's actually a new blogpost or not.

I don't regularly check so I wouldn't know based on the thread or whatever

 

[MonkUnit]

theres a blogpost everytime you check this thread, didnt you know

 

[9Kplus1]

Project: M - Swaggier swag implications daily

 

[Glöwworm]

Lol, I check this thread out when I randomly see it in the index after someone made a post. That is how I check this thread.

@MonkUnit

 

[Octorox]

where do you guys hear this? this makes me sad. what would he do, then?

Why not switch up Lucas's moves? Offense up on Down B, PK Freeze on Neutral B, PSI Magnet on Side B and PK Thunder on Up B. Then just give Kirby PK Freeze.

also I 100% agree with ph00tbag on Olimar. I think Pikmin effects should be really different. Like Mario fair, Doctor Mario fair different.

 

[TeiunBomb]

Just wanted to add that having the leaf/bud/flower on the Pikmin's head determine damage more than pikmin type takes away most of the random factor, especially if plucking chains remain random.

Even if that's the case, it would still take a bit of effort to keep a pikmin around long enough so that it reaches that state, so I can't see it removing Olimar's uniqueness because of it.

Also, as cool as the pikmin footstool sounds, I wouldn't want to scrap Pikmin Chain to implement it. Not only is tethering improved, hence making it a far more viable recovery, but I've seen it used as a way of extending combos, and it would be a shame to lose it now. I will admit though, someone getting gimped from footstooling off a purple pikmin to end the match would be hilarious to witness.

 

[standardtoaster]

Why not switch up Lucas's moves? Offense up on Down B, PK Freeze on Neutral B, PSI Magnet on Side B and PK Thunder on Up B. Then just give Kirby PK Freeze.

also I 100% agree with ph00tbag on Olimar. I think Pikmin effects should be really different. Like Mario fair, Doctor Mario fair different.

Because that would be dumb. Not every kirby hat has to match the neutral special exactly. Look at kirby's olimar hat. He doesn't pluck pikmin and have them follow him around. He plucks them and then tosses them.

 

[Stunts]

Just the vBrawl moves. Kirby hats have their own moveset.pac, they don't "take" the player's move.

Keep in mind that Kirby will still have the vbrawl version of mach tornado. He's gonna be God-tier

 

[drsusredfish]

Kirbys copy attacks can be edited can't they?

 

[Vanguard]

Yep. Some already are.

 

[DVDV28]

The way I always thought that Olimar should work is that every single Pikmin is completely different with their own strengths and weaknesses. In fact, the team shouldn't work in order to make them really similar but in fact as different as possible but with easy switching so that he becomes a character which requires a lot of thought, only being slightly affected by randomness.

Red
- Flame effects
- Higher damage output (good for smash attacks on low percents etc.)
- Reduced knockback on smash attacks so it can't be used

Yellow
- Electric effect
- Higher hitstun for greater combos (note: greater, Olimar should still be able to combo to some extent) and to make a Dair spike even better
- I think that the knockback on his combo moves should be slightly increased

Purple
- Higher knockback to be used for finishing as well as more durable when attacked
- Less damage so that it's used for higher percents and doesn't make Red Pikmin less impressive
- No multi hit attacks: all aerials hit once (except Nair)

White
- Latches on every attack with minimal knockback. An equivalent of planting C4 on an opponent but with a plant instead and .
- If the pikmin manages to return to Olimar without being killed, half of the damage done returns as health. A damage nerf may be required however so that

Blue
- Can swim (if anyone thinks it matters)
- I really like the mindgames suggestion. You really would need to pay attention both as and against Olimar since it could easily mix up your DI and get opponents screwing up

It should also be really easy to manipulate pikmin, even slotting in a quick, minor switch after some yellow pikmin attacks and following up with your choice. I love the idea of quickly wiping out Pikmin; you can quickly 'pik' the order of your pikmin with DSpec, but you can also 'pik' the pikmin that make up the lineup by killing the ones you don't like. At the same time the Pikmin chain was really neat.

A combination of DSpec and USpec means that not only can you quickly 'pik' the order of your pikmin, but you can also 'pik' the pikmin that make up the lineup.

I reckon it'd be cool to replace SSmash with SSpec and have something else for SSpec, especially since I'd push towards purple being his main kill move and it doesn't latch on anyway. The new SSpec could kill the pikmin somehow but I really can't think of a good one at the moment. DSpec could be buffed to replace the uses of SSpec

Olimar would be a really hard character to balance. Not only does he have to be at a similar level to other characters, his pikmin also have to have their own places and not be outdone by other pikmin in any area.