Cero
Smash Lord
Toon Link in P:M is basically a 3-way hybrid between Toon Link, Young Link and 64 Link.
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Project M Social Thread
- Thread starter Project M
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N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
idk why but now i am thinking olimar reka's (in case i didnt spell it correctly i mean the punch thing fei long does)
@cero: ive sked before if toon link feels like ylink and everyone told me no. Also ive seen his recovery, why did u make that from 64 link?
@cero: ive sked before if toon link feels like ylink and everyone told me no. Also ive seen his recovery, why did u make that from 64 link?
Cero
Smash Lord
I think his flame arrows and his down air are taken from Young Link. I can't remember if there's anything else from YL.
MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
Nair .
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
Rekkas? Nahhhhhh. I think they should keep Oli the same other than his up-b.
He has a pri damn interesting moveset.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
It gives him a fairly strong finisher move, and shortens his recovery dramatically. He can still bombjump and tether, so it's not like his recovery is the worst thing in the world.
It makes him a significantly more interesting character in general, and stops him from living until stupidly-high percentages.
phurgawtin
Smash Apprentice
I say for Oli, make his red/blue/yellow pikmin function identically, with the same trajectories and effects for every attack.
kind of like how you combined mario and dr.mario taking the best of each others' movesets.. do that with the 3 "normal" pikmin.
this way instead of having to juggle whether you have a purple, blue, yellow, red, or white..
you're just jugging purple, <blue,yellow,red are identical>, white.
kind of like how you combined mario and dr.mario taking the best of each others' movesets.. do that with the 3 "normal" pikmin.
this way instead of having to juggle whether you have a purple, blue, yellow, red, or white..
you're just jugging purple, <blue,yellow,red are identical>, white.
I R MarF
Smash Ace
This is a very sensible idea. I believe that the random factor can work if done in moderation (Peach's turnips, G&W's hammer) but the fact remains that the randomness is integrated in half of Olimar's moveset and its too demanding of the player to manage the attributes of that many pikmin
hotdogturtle
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2007
- Messages
- 3,503
I wouldn't even mind this as long as yellow and red still had their (purely graphical) electric and fire effects, so they're not boring.
Would yellows still have their extra distance when thrown?
JOE!
Smash Hero
yellow should definatley have the extra distance...
hmm, what if it were possible to make the pikmin much tougher, and you plucked them in a certain order? (starting with say, the 5 spread at the start of a match) decreases the random factor, but still having them killable (as well as keeping them to 5), gives Pluck use still, etc?
hmm, what if it were possible to make the pikmin much tougher, and you plucked them in a certain order? (starting with say, the 5 spread at the start of a match) decreases the random factor, but still having them killable (as well as keeping them to 5), gives Pluck use still, etc?
I had a long write up on oli, what could be done, and about bad character design, but my cell locked up and now I'm hella mad.
So ill sum it up.
Basically. Olimar suffers from inconsistancy due to his pikmin being randomized. Majority of his moves will have different attributes almost any time you them. And editting the pikmin is a major pain, hence why practically nothing has been done to him.
Majory inconsistancy is bad character design because it does not grant stability towards a character and its metagame. The random aspect also adds a major lack of reliability as you have to rely on chance to know what options you have.
Minor inconsistancies are fine when executeed well, and adds to character personality and flare, though its still not good design. It is however not bad since its only minor.
Such inconsistancies would include single moves with random aspects.
So far people have been trying to change pikmin. I say, instead of changing pikmin, why not change how olimar uses pikmin?
How?
Stop him from changing pikmin automatically every time he uses a pikmin-based move. Give him the ability to switch pikmin manually. Allow him to adjust his moveset attributes on the fly. It will turn him into a far more legitimate character with less inconsistancies in his moveset and give him reliable results and a more stable metagame. It allows him to stay true to his original character design while essentially becoming a stance change character. With this new found stability, I believe he'll be a far more usbale character.
So ill sum it up.
Basically. Olimar suffers from inconsistancy due to his pikmin being randomized. Majority of his moves will have different attributes almost any time you them. And editting the pikmin is a major pain, hence why practically nothing has been done to him.
Majory inconsistancy is bad character design because it does not grant stability towards a character and its metagame. The random aspect also adds a major lack of reliability as you have to rely on chance to know what options you have.
Minor inconsistancies are fine when executeed well, and adds to character personality and flare, though its still not good design. It is however not bad since its only minor.
Such inconsistancies would include single moves with random aspects.
So far people have been trying to change pikmin. I say, instead of changing pikmin, why not change how olimar uses pikmin?
How?
Stop him from changing pikmin automatically every time he uses a pikmin-based move. Give him the ability to switch pikmin manually. Allow him to adjust his moveset attributes on the fly. It will turn him into a far more legitimate character with less inconsistancies in his moveset and give him reliable results and a more stable metagame. It allows him to stay true to his original character design while essentially becoming a stance change character. With this new found stability, I believe he'll be a far more usbale character.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,558
We can't replace SFX without forcing Riivolution on our fanbase.
Which we aren't doing.
OmegaMuffin
Smash Journeyman
Why you talkin nonsense shanus?
Stevo
Smash Champion
my interest in olimar is beginning to germinate.
curry9186
Smash Journeyman
I don't remember seeing any hints that blossomed into a full discussion.
robosteven
Smash Lord
Why not just make him have one of each color pikmin on him at all times that can't die, and then change his side-b and neutral-b? 
I mean, invincible pikmin would ensure stability, and since he can only have 5 with him at a time (and there are 5 kinds of pikmin), those would stay consistent. He could keep his recovery up-b, but his neutral-b would be useless and his side-b would be broken. Maybe give him a horizontal pikmin-chain like his up-b for his side-b. Iunno. Just branching out to extreme directions here. IDGAF.
I mean, invincible pikmin would ensure stability, and since he can only have 5 with him at a time (and there are 5 kinds of pikmin), those would stay consistent. He could keep his recovery up-b, but his neutral-b would be useless and his side-b would be broken. Maybe give him a horizontal pikmin-chain like his up-b for his side-b. Iunno. Just branching out to extreme directions here. IDGAF.
phurgawtin
Smash Apprentice
Honestly, if there was one move of his I'd like to see reimagined, it would be his sideB.
That being said, whatever the move may become, the white pikmin should still be complete and utter percentile ****.
That being said, whatever the move may become, the white pikmin should still be complete and utter percentile ****.
robosteven
Smash Lord
Think Pikmin 2. My ideas are either some kind of charged punch (like his combo with the CRAZY DISPROPORTIONATE ROCKET FIST) or the bitter spray that turns enemies into rocks.
...except the spray would do damage or something. Or just stun. Or maybe it would need to be charged like the Wario Waft or something. Ideas, ideas, ideas.
humble
Smash Ace
Shanus, you can't just drop something juicy like that and walk away, tell us about these cool changes! Don't be a tease, what's happening with Olimar?
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Well it can be hard to tell when you root these hints deep within your posts, shanus.
Oh god, this is happening.
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
yes it is haha
humble
Smash Ace
How did I miss this.
MaxThunder
PM Support
i suddenly got hungry for seedless watermelons that can ignite jetpacks... with a side helping of cow blood...
phurgawtin
Smash Apprentice
Because he cleverly planted the hint in his sentence, making it appear as a typo.How did I miss this.
Stunts
Smash Journeyman
His sexual prefence is his own business lol
And how is Kirby coming along? Can he inhale the M neutrals, yet?
I love when people who don't understand Olimar try to write about him.
The huge discrepancies between Olimar's pikmin encourage you to be mindful of which pikmin is next in line, both for the player, and their opponent. In fact, the most skilled Olimar players not only pay attention to their lines, but manipulate them as well. The most successful opponents of Olimar players take advantage of the next pikmin in line to manipulate Olimar's options.
The misconception that Olimar players and their opponents are slaves to the randomness of the pikmin inexplicably drives the discourse as to what should be done with the character, and this is a horrible path to start down, leading to incredibly boring ideas like making plucks non-random, or reducing the discrepancies between pikmin, so that fewer pikmin can really be played in an optimized manner. This basically makes Olimar a mindless carbon copy of every other character in smash, and doesn't let him shine as one of the most unique smash brothers characters.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if you want to make Olimar work better, give the player more options to manipulate their line, and enhance discrepancies between each pikmin, giving each pikmin a definite strong suit, and a definite weakness. This way, you make it so that any pikmin can be defeated, but the line can be manipulated to mitigate that.
Don't slow down Pluck. He needs to be able to manipulate and strengthen his line quickly, otherwise he gets rushed down and killed for line manipulation or, even more ironically, trying to ensure he has a recovery if he's knocked offstage. Heck, ensuring he has a moveset becomes a major concession on his part. Furthermore, allow pluck to rotate a saturated line by one. This is distinct from Order, which puts the line in an order defined by an algorithm that is the same every match.
I've also seen an interesting idea of replacing Chain with a footstool off of a pikmin, killing the pikmin in the process. Making this a quick option would allow Olimar also to farm pikmin more effectively, granting him more control over his line.
Rather than make Olimar a boring, and possibly even bad, character, these ideas embrace the qualities that make him totally unique and interesting. They do more to encourage and facilitate line manipulation, but they also allow any of Olimar's opponents to alter their playstyle based on which pikmin is active at any time. This is the direction that ought to be sought with Olimar. Trying to do otherwise just displays ignorance of, or I suppose disaffection with, the qualities that make Olimar interesting, and that's not the attitude that should be driving Olimar's development.
The huge discrepancies between Olimar's pikmin encourage you to be mindful of which pikmin is next in line, both for the player, and their opponent. In fact, the most skilled Olimar players not only pay attention to their lines, but manipulate them as well. The most successful opponents of Olimar players take advantage of the next pikmin in line to manipulate Olimar's options.
The misconception that Olimar players and their opponents are slaves to the randomness of the pikmin inexplicably drives the discourse as to what should be done with the character, and this is a horrible path to start down, leading to incredibly boring ideas like making plucks non-random, or reducing the discrepancies between pikmin, so that fewer pikmin can really be played in an optimized manner. This basically makes Olimar a mindless carbon copy of every other character in smash, and doesn't let him shine as one of the most unique smash brothers characters.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if you want to make Olimar work better, give the player more options to manipulate their line, and enhance discrepancies between each pikmin, giving each pikmin a definite strong suit, and a definite weakness. This way, you make it so that any pikmin can be defeated, but the line can be manipulated to mitigate that.
Don't slow down Pluck. He needs to be able to manipulate and strengthen his line quickly, otherwise he gets rushed down and killed for line manipulation or, even more ironically, trying to ensure he has a recovery if he's knocked offstage. Heck, ensuring he has a moveset becomes a major concession on his part. Furthermore, allow pluck to rotate a saturated line by one. This is distinct from Order, which puts the line in an order defined by an algorithm that is the same every match.
I've also seen an interesting idea of replacing Chain with a footstool off of a pikmin, killing the pikmin in the process. Making this a quick option would allow Olimar also to farm pikmin more effectively, granting him more control over his line.
Rather than make Olimar a boring, and possibly even bad, character, these ideas embrace the qualities that make him totally unique and interesting. They do more to encourage and facilitate line manipulation, but they also allow any of Olimar's opponents to alter their playstyle based on which pikmin is active at any time. This is the direction that ought to be sought with Olimar. Trying to do otherwise just displays ignorance of, or I suppose disaffection with, the qualities that make Olimar interesting, and that's not the attitude that should be driving Olimar's development.
phurgawtin
Smash Apprentice
I don't feel there is much of a purpose in scripting Kirby to inhale the M neutrals at this point. A big portion of the characters are relatively untouched, and even once all the characters are completed, they're still going to be tweaking moves for better balance.
Any change made to any character's Neutral B would then have to be tweaked again for Kirby too. It's just inefficient to worry about it right now when everything's subject to change so often.
Any change made to any character's Neutral B would then have to be tweaked again for Kirby too. It's just inefficient to worry about it right now when everything's subject to change so often.
Stunts
Smash Journeyman
D
Deleted member
Guest
Why dont you guys just make it so the only move Olimar has that is random is his side-b so players can pull and store whatever color they want like purples for KOs?
Then just make his smashes, tilts, aerials, and everything else standard. Make his up air always red or something. His fsmash always yellow.
Stuff like that.
Nobody wants to micro every smash and aerial with their stupid random pikmin that scramble around every move. Thats just a ****ty design relegated to a ****ty game of the past
Also you should make all the shines reflect Pikmin back at olimar and attack him because it would be funny
Then just make his smashes, tilts, aerials, and everything else standard. Make his up air always red or something. His fsmash always yellow.
Stuff like that.
Nobody wants to micro every smash and aerial with their stupid random pikmin that scramble around every move. Thats just a ****ty design relegated to a ****ty game of the past
Also you should make all the shines reflect Pikmin back at olimar and attack him because it would be funny
phurgawtin
Smash Apprentice
Its been a couple years since I played vBrawl, but a good friend of mine was an Oli main and he complained that his mid-air neutral B should have been used for something similar to that. So if multiple Olimar users are hiveminding on a thought for the character, it's probably something to pay attention to.
With tethers not occupying the ledge in P:M, his Chain isn't going to be an issue. In fact, in streams, it's becoming more and more common to see Samus and Link use their hookshots to recover in effort to avoid edgehogging.
However, the thought of footstooling off of a pikmin still sounds really good and unique. Instead of it replacing his Up+B, how about Olimar can't footstool off of players, but instead, his up taunt in the air causes him to footstool off of the next Pikmin in his line, killing it in the process.
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