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Project M Social Thread Gold

Saito

Pranked!
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had some hype smash 4 matches with a japanese villager player.

Robin is like my favorite smash character ever.

Robin in PM when ;_;
 
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PMS | Tink-er

fie on thee
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Omg look at whose lewds I found

mod edit: no pls
 
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TreK

Is "that guy"
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^ I have been a low tier main in Brawl for four years. My tolerance level is quite high.
Also, I don't consider losing because of matchup inexperience "losing to a character". I know it sounds cheesy, but it's losing to a player, and that player is myself. I spend a lot of time in the lab and know how to train so if I'm a victim of the surprise effect, I have no one to blame but myself.
isn't marth one of ivy's worst matchups?
I'd say it's tied with Kirby for the title of worst matchup, yeah.
They share the same... things : unescapable CGs, easy kill setups, being able to escape Ivy's combos into kills, being able to edgeguard Ivy, being able to recover against Ivy. Kirby has a better recovery, Marth has a better dash dance.

I actually did better with my scrub level roy, spamming dtilts and stuff, than with the character I've put all my time, focus and heart into for the past year and a half. I just feel like there's no point trying anymore until 3.5, but I know the salt will go in a couple weeks. I hope, at least :p
 
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DMG

Smash Legend
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Slippi.gg
DMG#931
K no Marth is not one of Ivy's worst MU's. Almost everything that is true for Marth on the plus side, is also true for Ivy. Sick nasty throw followups, edgeguards, range, etc. If you play a "pattern" Ivy where you usually do 1 or 2 specific things always after a Bair/Razor leaf/action, you will get poopied on. Waiting and repositioning constantly with a character that has that kind of Dtilt and Bair range busts most of her MU's, and significantly reduces how well any rushdown can venture in
 

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

Hologram Summer Again
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^ I have been a low tier main in Brawl for four years. My tolerance level is quite high.
Also, I don't consider losing because of matchup inexperience "losing to a character". I know it sounds cheesy, but it's losing to a player, and that player is myself. I spend a lot of time in the lab and know how to train so if I'm a victim of the surprise effect, I have no one to blame but myself.

I'd say it's tied with Kirby for the title of worst matchup, yeah.
They share the same... things : unescapable CGs, easy kill setups, being able to escape Ivy's combos into kills, being able to edgeguard Ivy, being able to recover against Ivy. Kirby has a better recovery, Marth has a better dash dance.

I actually did better with my scrub level roy, spamming dtilts and stuff, than with the character I've put all my time, focus and heart into for the past year and a half. I just feel like there's no point trying anymore until 3.5, but I know the salt will go in a couple weeks. I hope, at least :p
I lost to Lucas twice in pools at my local big tourney yesterday. I was pretty salt.
**** it imma main lucas
that's why
 

Soft Serve

softie
Premium
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Marth ivy is probably even, but it feels horible for ivy imo.
Marth gets fthrow regards even if ivy dis away, and gets tippers once he can't regrab. Ivy probably has just as strong a punish game because bair gimps and amazing juggles plus up b sweetspot, and neutral doesn't look too bad, but that mu feels like dog **** to play as ivy so I understand what Teneban is saying.
 

PMS | Tink-er

fie on thee
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Something wrong with that thing I posted? It was a screen cap of a guy flying a jet fighter and calling saito lewd right?
 

KuroganeHammer

It's ya boy
BRoomer
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i dont even know what a pickerino is

also im capped

i can hardly load this website

but smash 4 wifi doesnt lag still

wtf
 

MechWarriorNY

Smash Master
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I lost to Lucas twice in pools at my local big tourney yesterday. I was pretty salt.

Holding onto anger changes nothing but your blood pressure(in bad ways, at that), and enforces negative stereotypes made about Smashers and the sorts of people who get into fandom in general. It's a waste of time.
Don't be That Guy™.
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
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I lost to a Marth player, as Ivysaur.
I 2 stocked his Snake pretty convincingly, and then he switched to Marth. He then 0-deathed me 12 times in a row. The only two stocks he's lost were suicide KOs because he just disrespected me that much.
And how certain are you that snake wasn't his like a tertiary that he's bad with? And maybe you judged his ability by his tertiary? Player skill isn't determined by your pocket characters, so if he's a Marth main, then his best character beats your best character, you either lost a character matchup or a player matchup. You didn't lose to a character.
 
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Bleck

Smash Master
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
3,133
I can get behind what @ Bleck Bleck 's saying entirely. He summed up my thoughts of Smash 4 very nicely.
put it up

up where my hand is

put your hand on my hand

What do you think of :4bowserjr:? Currently, :4morton: is my favorite character to play as. Lot of speed and power, solid recovery, decent combo ability and just straight out fun to play. I see him being either high tier or high-mid at this rate.
I think all of this things are true, but also this - they're the only character in the game who has a mechanic similar to crouch canceling, in that the Clown Car takes less damage from attacks (and the character takes more), but crouching actually almost completely removes the non-Clown Car hitboxes. That'll probably be an important thing to take advantage of.

At this point I believe that Mechakoopas may be the best projectile in the game.
 

TreK

Is "that guy"
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France
^ It's a friend of mine who's doing those kazoo covers, you can find his channel here if you want more kazoo goodness : https://www.youtube.com/user/TsukoG

And how certain are you that snake wasn't his like a tertiary that he's bad with? And maybe you judged his ability by his tertiary? Player skill isn't determined by your pocket characters, so if he's a Marth main, then his best character beats your best character, you either lost a character matchup or a player matchup. You didn't lose to a character.
I took 2 stocks off of his Marth with my barely trained Roy later on, by spamming uairs and fsmashes.
Now don't get me wrong, I hate johning. Leon's definitely better than me, at least in other smash games. But in PM he's not so much better than me that he's able to just 0-death me 12 times in a row. It's my turf.
 

Smooth Criminal

Da Cheef
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He's moving in on your "turf," my dude. Might be getting better at the game, or he might be handling that specific character very well. Either way, it happens.

Time to get better, or counterpick.

Smooth Criminal
 

9bit

BRoomer
BRoomer
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Does anybody know the biggest determining factor in the speed of the Zelda / Sheik transformation? Is it the SD card or the disc / ISO?
 

wannabe33

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 18, 2014
Messages
128
Here's some vague stream of consciousness musings about the game.

With regards to the more 'casual' parts of the game, the 3DS version feels very wide, but perhaps not very deep, like a really big pool that only goes up to your knees. Classic and All-Star and Stadium are all fine and dandy, but I can't help but feel as though the game suffers from AGS (Asian Grind Syndrome), where the large majority of the accomplishments in the game can be summarized as 'do this, and then do it again'. The challenge board is a great idea and I always like it, but it quickly degenerates into things that I feel like one can't go out of one's way to beat without getting completely burnt out on single-player very quickly (i.e beat [x] mode with every character).

I feel like Smash Run is great, but suffers (at least in a North American setting) from being a) local only and b) on the handheld version. I'd previously hypothesized ...somewhere (either Smashboards or on Facebook, I can't remember) that Smash Run was intended to be the go-to 'pick up and play' mode of the game, having little in the way of customizable rules to worry about. You're on the bus and see somebody with a 3DS looking to Smash? Instead of spending time deciding whether or not you want items on or etc., you just play a round of Smash Run. Everyone is happy.

That being said, as a big fan of City Trial from Kirby's Air Ride, and as a staunch believer that a portable console's biggest strength is its portability, I believe that Smash Run should have been a feature in the console version - I got Smash 4 for the 3DS because I like the idea of being able to play Smash quickly whenever I want, wherever I am - as such, I think that Smash Run (and to a lesser extent, online play in general) was a waste on the portable version. The chances of there being other Smashers that just so happen to be nearby (not to mention the chance that we actually even interact with each other) whenever I'm playing the portable version is low enough that I feel as though there should have been more focus on the single player content. Which, of course, I still feel is substantial enough, but as I said, could have benefit from a bit more depth. Why not have a Boss Rush similar to Brawl's, with bosses exclusive to the 3DS version? Why not bring back old favorites like Break the Targets and/or Board The Platforms for people to try and compete for high scores? I'm disappointed that what I feel like is a great game mode (Smash Run) is something that I'm barely ever going to get to actually play with people, 'cause I'm not exactly interested in interacting with each other in public whilst in transit, and by the time the Wii U version comes out, well, if I'm ever playing Smash 4 locally, it's just gonna be on that on a nice big TV with a Gamecube controller, you know?

As far the more "competitive" aspects of the game, I think that it's a huge improvement from both Brawl and Melee - I've made it clear more than a few times that I don't think Brawl's failures were necessarily Melee's successes and vice versa. That being said, I think that Smash 4 is not the successor to Melee that a lot of people wanted (and will never get, at least not as a Smash game), and as such is going to probably cause a rough divide in the community.

I think that there's basically two kinds of Smash players, at this point - the people who play Melee because Brawl wasn't really an appropriate competitive game, and the people who play Melee because Brawl was different than Melee (I believe it's likely that the majority of Project M players fall under the former category). In this sense, Smash 4 was doomed to fail for many from the start - while the former group will be pleased to have a new Smash that's actually viable as a competitive fighting game (I'll get to that later), the latter group will inevitably be displeased with anything that isn't Melee. The relatively disgruntled response I've seen from many notable smashers towards Smash 4 more or less confirms my suspicions of that, I think.

So while it doesn't have Melee's technical-movement orientation, Smash 4 feels very good to play - it's responsive, it's dynamic, it's accessible, and it's rewarding.

I'm sure anyone reading this who's played it has noticed that it's faster and less floaty than Brawl. A lot of people tend to say that it's not as 'defensive' as Brawl, but that's always been bull**** (both Melee and Brawl's metagames are overwhelmingly defensively oriented) - it's more apt to say that Smash 4 is better at rewarding intelligent aggression, while simultaneously being better at punishing overly defensive play. Spot dodges and air dodges are less reliable, forcing you to actually read well for them to be useful. Shields don't seem to last as long (or it seems that way, at least), and there are more options than ever that are specifically designed to punish shield heavy players - but on the same token, dropping one's shield is now much faster, so actually shielding something correctly is no longer a punishable offense. Making the player's defensive options much more situational has made the game much more cerebral - while it doesn't have the intricate duck-and-weave style that Melee eventually developed (at the expense of much of the game, mechanically), it doesn't need it. While Melee has a competitive focus on execution of action, Smash 4's competitive focus will be on execution of strategy - reading your opponent will be much more important, which in the long run will make Smash 4 pretty interesting.

Balance-wise, it's too early to say objectively. I feel as though there are basically four types of characters in Smash 4 (with some overlap, of course), all of which seem like they're more or less as good as each other (warning; opinions ahead);

  • Fast, aggressive characters, with strong sets of normals and interesting specials to complement. Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Greninja, Captain Falcon, Lucario, Meta Knight, Peach, Fox, Yoshi, Wii Fit Trainer and Sonic all fall under this category. There's also Little Mac, who plays very differently than the rest of those, but is arguably the same idea. I think these characters will all have a focus on playing aggressively, going for extended combos and early KOs, but will suffer from having difficult-to-land kill options and poor/predictable recoveries. Note that this is basically the only kind of character that's viable in Melee.
  • Methodical, spacing oriented characters, with slow-to-medium speed normals with disjointed/extended reaches. Marth, Robin, Ness, Lucina, Pit and Dark Pit, Mr. Game and Watch, Palutena Ike, Shulk, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Bowser Jr... basically all the characters with swords or weapons. These characters will be more about reacting to your opponents than going for combos, with easier ways to kill but less ways to rack up damage, and generally better recoveries than the first group.
  • Very similar to the second group is the zoners, characters with movesets that revolve around controlling space, usually with lots of projectiles. Rosalina, Samus, Duck Hunt, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Diddy Kong, Villager, Link and Toon Link, Olimar, Zelda, ROB, all the characters with notable projectiles and extended space control. These characters also seem to have generally the best recoveries, but often not that many tools for dealing with lots of up close aggression (or if they do, the tools are generally predictable or relatively ineffective).
  • Finally, we have the BIG FATTIES, whose whole deal is that they're enormous, hard to kill, and hit really hard. These characters have always basically been the worst in Smash, but this time around they've all been given tools, whether character specific or game-wide mechanics, to be better than they've ever been. Bowser, Donkey Kong, Charizard, Ganondorf, King Dedede round out this relatively small group, but I feel as though they have more of a fighting chance than they ever had before, and are probably the most fun characters to watch. They also, notably, all have a move that they can use to try and suicide KO.

Some character specific thoughts;

Rosalina is currently my contender for Best Character. Her control of space is incredible - all of her normals have hitboxes that I can only describe as very ****ing generous, her damage is notable, her recovery is fantastic, and she's basically immune to projectiles. Smart, capable players will use the Luma in such a way where you're basically fighting two characters at once - like the Ice Climbers, except much more threatening. It also seems like it's impossible to grab her if the Luma is near, which is obviously huge. Expect to see strong results from her.

Bowser seems notably good for a big fatty - lots attacks that, despite hitting hard, are really fast, a noticeably buffed recovery ranged, and his huge weight makes him benefit the most from the rage mechanic. An early lead with Bowser will go a long way in matches, probably. I especially like that his neutral B isn't an enormous waste of time, now.

I've tried to defend Dark Pit as being a clone similar to Dr. Mario (who I played a lot of in Melee), and that a clone here and there is better than not having a character there at all - but unlike Dr. Mario and Lucina, I feel like Dark Pit is basically the same as Pit, and it's not very interesting. So, bleh.

I don't really care about the Mii Fighters.

Pac-Man is probably my favorite character to actually play as (thankfully, since I was clearly very hyped about him), but will probably not be my competitive main (Greninja, who just so happens to be one of my favorite pokemon). I love all of his tools and I feel like he's really smooth to play as, but I've found it way too difficult to land any of his KO moves reliably so far.

Everyone seems to have a pocket Little Mac (even me!), but I don't think he's that good. Definitely good, but I feel like people playing him in reaction to losing is based more on how satisfying he feels to play as and less on how often he actually wins.

King Dedede's Gordos are simultaneously the best and worst projectile in the game.

I don't know what to think about Wario. He just sort of exists and I feel as though I'm supposed to acknowledge him but I can't look at him for too long or my brain starts to hurt.

While Fox is probably a strong contender all around (though his Reflector is basically the worst parts of the Melee and Brawl versions combined), Falco feels like he was hit maybe a bit too hard with the nerf bat. While I don't think he's bad, I do feel as though he (likely inadvertantly) suffers the most from wide gameplay changes that were probably made for balance reasons. Projectiles were nerfed across the board, but it feels especially jarring with Falco, who now takes forever and a day to shoot a laser and to put his gun away. Recoveries are generally stronger, but with Falco this means just barely being able to recover, whereas before he just plain couldn't, so now he feels noticeably weak in this area. Chaingrabs are gone, so his most reliable damage option from Brawl doesn't exist (though I feel this change was for the best). His legendary down aerial has been changed to a move that, on any other character, would feel fine (and arguably, it's still fine on Falco), but compared to his old one, feels just... bleh. I always mained Falco in previous games because I love Star Fox and Falco has always been my favorite character, and I've always bemoaned him being so strong in Melee and Brawl 'cause I felt like a scrub for playing Falco all the time, you know? But now, while I still think he's okay-to-good, he just feels really stilted and jarring for longtime Falco players from Melee or Brawl. Probably my only real disappointment, as far as characters go. That being said, while at this point I'm maining Pac-Man and Greninja, I'll still probably play a lot of Falco, 'cause he'll always be my favorite.


---

That's all I can think of right now. If you have any other specific questions, I'm always willing to post many, many words in response.
Good read.

Quite the claim to say that Smash 4 is an improvement from Melee and Brawl, considering Brawl was a pretty underrated competitive game and Melee is Melee. I was hoping you could comment on some of these early criticisms:

1. A return of Brawl's defense-oriented neutral. When people say that Melee is "offensive" and Brawl is "defensive," what they really mean is that Melee enables and rewards complex offense- dynamic movement options, safe on-shield pressure, true combos, meaningful strings- while Brawl doesn't. Theorycraft points to Smash 4 being a rerun of Brawl here: again, there is little safe on-shield pressure; again, movement options are limited and committal; again, true combos beyond low-percent tilts are few and far between. I've watched about a dozen Smash 3DS tournaments, and there's plenty of poke game. That's troubling to a lot of people.

2. A slow pace. Granted, fastfalls are quicker, but beyond that Smash 4 seems pretty darn slow. Lots of landing lag. Vectoring. Huge blast zones. Buffed recoveries all around. Guaranteed ledgegrabs. All of the points made in [1] apply here, too. Characters live a long ass time and finishing up a stock often means fishing for a smash attack.

3. A lack of balance. The consensus here is that Smash 4 is shaping up to be the best-balanced game yet, so this is more my criticism than a community criticism. Simply put, I don't buy a lot of this rhetoric -- people thought Brawl would be balanced in its early meta, too. Like Melee, many characters are hard counters to much of the cast: Rosalina puts projectile users, Ness, Sheik, Falcon, and a couple others to shame; Sheik and projectile users dominate Mac; certain offensive / rushdown characters like Sheik, Yoshi, Greninja, and ZSS have the speed, damage, and KO potential to simply outclass the other offensive / rushdown characters; spacers (DHD, custom moves Palutena, Villager) can be super dominant. There are other examples, but you get the idea. Would not be at all surprised to end up with a Melee-sized bunch of viable fighters, which is disappointing for a cast of 51 original movesets.
 
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Warsaint777

Smash Lord
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Wanted everyone to know i figured out how to keep my old data and put it on to my new SD w/ sm4sh. I'm thrilled.

I know you all are too.

BTW does anyone else here really really like their Mii Fighter and want to main him even in prospective tournament venues?
 

Warsaint777

Smash Lord
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Would not be at all surprised to end up with a Melee-sized bunch of viable fighters, which is disappointing for a cast of 51 original movesets.
edit: oh shoot sorry for dp

But yeah man I would be crushed too if most of the roster turned out a joke like melee in competition, but isn't it evident that nintendo is going to do regular balancing patches for sm4sh when it sorely needs it? That was my understanding.
 
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wannabe33

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 18, 2014
Messages
128
edit: oh shoot sorry for dp

But yeah man I would be crushed too if most of the roster turned out a joke like melee in competition, but isn't it evident that nintendo is going to do regular balancing patches for sm4sh when it sorely needs it? That was my understanding.
Balance patches would be great! I think the appropriate attitude to have here, though, is a healthy skepticism. Smash 4 is the first game Nintendo is embracing from a competitive standpoint, and it's not at all clear Nintendo is willing or able to balance things properly. The ZSS infinite on Robin is still around, for example.
 

Eternal Yoshi

I've covered ban wars, you know
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The Balance Patches are real folks.
1.0.2 did subtle balance changes as alluded to in the notes.

The real question is: When's the next one, and will they catch and patch out the Rosa infinite?
 
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